Proxies & Double Sleeving

[Devils Advocate]

I'd like to hear everyone's take on them, in regards to vintage.
How many is fair, for what reasons?
To what extent should the rules be on them and how they are made?
Should paper proxies be allowed?

Also,
What do you guys think about double sleeving, either with perfect fits or penny sleeves?

Please don't use all-caps in thread titles.  I know it's been allowed in the past, but it's going to change in most circumstances going forward.  Thanks.  -DA

[Tha Gunslinga]

As a tournament organizer, player, and collector, here's my take:

I created what I call the 25/25/25 rule.  $25 entry, 25 proxies, and $.25 more per proxy.  This allows people to play pretty much any deck they want, while discouraging all-proxy decks, which are irritating.  The average player at one of my tournaments has 10-15 proxies, and almost no one goes over 25.

I do ask that players have clear, readable proxies with all relevant game text on them, but I'm pretty lenient, especially on cards like Ancestral Recall or Tezzeret that people should know.

Paper proxies are a terrible idea; they can shift around or fall out, and they make the card thicker, inviting cheating.  I can't think of any TO allowing paper proxies.

I've been double-sleeving for years and years, with KMC Super sleeves and penny sleeves outside, and it's great.  I've never seen a player marking their deck with them, and if so, well, that's a DQ; there are penalties already for marking your cards.  Double-sleeving keeps your cards extra-safe and clean.

[theLastGnu]

I'm a big fan of the "Ben Carp standard" of 25 proxies + 25 cents each after that, it allows for an even playing field across the meta, but owning staples is still a major benefit, especially if you frequent events, my opinion is based on the fact that I'm a college student still looking for a job though.

I think the proxy expectations defined in this thread are concise, simple, and should be the de facto proxy standards for tournament proxying.

I don't understand why one would want to double sleeve their cards, is this a common practice of which I've just never heard before?

EDIT: oops, beat me to it

[Katzby]

I've been double-sleeving for years and years, with KMC Super sleeves and penny sleeves outside, and it's great.  I've never seen a player marking their deck with them, and if so, well, that's a DQ; there are penalties already for marking your cards.  Double-sleeving keeps your cards extra-safe and clean.

Since I am invested in using KMC Super Sleeves (I have tons and tons), I have been looking for a brand of penny sleeves that will work for this purpose.  Can you recommend a brand that fits over the KMCs?  I have found that Ultra Pro penny sleeves don't quite fit and cause you to need to "bunch up" the KMC sleeve, which is not so good.


Katzby

[MEATROCKET]

Katzby, what you need are KMC Perfect Fit sleeves.  You put your card into the perfect fit, then into the regular sleeve.  I can't imagine how clumsy a deck double sleeved with penny sleeves must be.

[ashiXIII]

Katzby, what you need are KMC Perfect Fit sleeves.  You put your card into the perfect fit, then into the regular sleeve.  I can't imagine how clumsy a deck double sleeved with penny sleeves must be.

it's only clumsy for maybe 2 games, then it gets much easier to handle as the cards stop sliding around so much.


I think 25 proxies is way high, and the maximum should be around 15, and maybe only 10. It's soooo annoying playing against bad proxies, especially when there are a lot of them. It's very easy to confuse one card for another, or forget something's in play because it's proxied on an island. It's actually really unfair to the opponent of the person using proxies. For this reason, I feel the proxy rules should be very strict, preferably proxying over a similiar card, with full name, rules text, and casting cost a requirement.

[MEATROCKET]

I guess clumsy isn't the word I'm looking for.  A deck with KMC perfect fits is elegant and you can't even notice by looking at a library except for the increase in height.

[weedian]

Katzby, what you need are KMC Perfect Fit sleeves.  You put your card into the perfect fit, then into the regular sleeve.  I can't imagine how clumsy a deck double sleeved with penny sleeves must be.

it's only clumsy for maybe 2 games, then it gets much easier to handle as the cards stop sliding around so much.


I think 25 proxies is way high, and the maximum should be around 15, and maybe only 10. It's soooo annoying playing against bad proxies, especially when there are a lot of them. It's very easy to confuse one card for another, or forget something's in play because it's proxied on an island. It's actually really unfair to the opponent of the person using proxies. For this reason, I feel the proxy rules should be very strict, preferably proxying over a similiar card, with full name, rules text, and casting cost a requirement.

I've done the same thing screwed up becuase i saw an island.

But sometimes its hard to get the same CC etc.. and full rules text.. writing that out for some cards would be MADNESS

[LordHomerCat]

Katzby, what you need are KMC Perfect Fit sleeves.  You put your card into the perfect fit, then into the regular sleeve.  I can't imagine how clumsy a deck double sleeved with penny sleeves must be.

it's only clumsy for maybe 2 games, then it gets much easier to handle as the cards stop sliding around so much.


I think 25 proxies is way high, and the maximum should be around 15, and maybe only 10. It's soooo annoying playing against bad proxies, especially when there are a lot of them. It's very easy to confuse one card for another, or forget something's in play because it's proxied on an island. It's actually really unfair to the opponent of the person using proxies. For this reason, I feel the proxy rules should be very strict, preferably proxying over a similiar card, with full name, rules text, and casting cost a requirement.

I've done the same thing screwed up becuase i saw an island.

But sometimes its hard to get the same CC etc.. and full rules text.. writing that out for some cards would be MADNESS

Writing out rules text takes like 30 seconds for a really complicated card.  Considering that like 10 of your proxies will probably just be mana sources with basically no text, it's not really too hard to have to write out the text on those obscure cards you're playing with.  The cards with the longest text are also the most necessary (stuff like Illusionary Mask and Chains of Mephistopheles) and even there it isn't that hard to write it out.

If you can't get the same CC, find something close and use a Sharpie to write the correct one.  Using the correct Color of cards is a great help to me.

[Harlequin]

Its a pet peive of mine when TO's or whoever make any sort of referance to 'full game effecting text'.  Full text on a card has absolutly no function, outside of makeing a card Less Clear. 
1st of all - I would never ever ever trust what a person writes on a card.  Ever.  Never Ever.  If I have a question about what a card does, I'm calling a judge.  If I don't know if its a choice or a target, or if its a trigger or replacement... I'm not trusting that my opponent's proxy skills are up to the challenge of detailing those subtle differences.  Hell I don't even trust the printed cards, because they can be subject to different rule text than card printed text.
2nd - If this was important, I expect that these same people would ban non-english cards.  They don't have all game effecting text. 
3rd - It often makes the card less clear.  I would much rather see:
NECROMANCY -- 2B
all the way across the card, with the type, power/toughness, and card text all redacted.  Than see a basic plains with necromancy written across the white boarder on the top, and a wall of fine-tip sharpy text.

It has nothing to do with time, and everything to do with ease of recognition.  Knowing how and when Necromancy gains substance is much less important to me than looking at someone's hand via duress and being able to at a glance Identify all the cards.  If I have a question about substance, I'm not going to rely on my opponent's handwritten instructions.

[Purple Hat]

Its a pet peive of mine when TO's or whoever make any sort of referance to 'full game effecting text'.  Full text on a card has absolutly no function, outside of makeing a card Less Clear. 
1st of all - I would never ever ever trust what a person writes on a card.  Ever.  Never Ever.  If I have a question about what a card does, I'm calling a judge.  If I don't know if its a choice or a target, or if its a trigger or replacement... I'm not trusting that my opponent's proxy skills are up to the challenge of detailing those subtle differences.  Hell I don't even trust the printed cards, because they can be subject to different rule text than card printed text.
2nd - If this was important, I expect that these same people would ban non-english cards.  They don't have all game effecting text. 
3rd - It often makes the card less clear.  I would much rather see:
NECROMANCY -- 2B
all the way across the card, with the type, power/toughness, and card text all redacted.  Than see a basic plains with necromancy written across the white boarder on the top, and a wall of fine-tip sharpy text.

It has nothing to do with time, and everything to do with ease of recognition.  Knowing how and when Necromancy gains substance is much less important to me than looking at someone's hand via duress and being able to at a glance Identify all the cards.  If I have a question about substance, I'm not going to rely on my opponent's handwritten instructions.

Also, big block print.  With a full size BLACK MARKER.  Some people write in pen and it's infuriating.  People proxy duals on other lands and you look at it and you're like "oh, it's a swamp....he must be splashing black for duress in goblins to help his combo matchup" or something....then he's like "tap my plateau, swords your dragon" and you're like....WTF?

what I really would rather see is proxies where people take a foil, peel off the foily layer so they have a piece of card stock and write on the BLANK card so there's no confusion.  it's no more marked than a normal foil, and it's a hell of a lot more recognizable as a proxy since it doesn't look like some other card.

[God_Campbell]

what I really would rather see is proxies where people take a foil, peel off the foily layer so they have a piece of card stock and write on the BLANK card so there's no confusion.  it's no more marked than a normal foil, and it's a hell of a lot more recognizable as a proxy since it doesn't look like some other card.

This is how I do my proxies, I write out the name and what not then use my crappy artistic talents to make it out to a close look of the card, I actually had a time vault proxy made up by peeling the foil then running it through a laser printer so the image was printed onto the card, same thickness and a heck of alot cooler, but still looks like a proxy.

[d0rsal]

i make my proxies printing on Avery full page labels, think i can fit 9 to a page, then trimming the image down to fit inside the border, but over the picture on a basic land card & sticking the new image to it.  they look great, so there's no misunderstanding what the card is & you've got all the pertinent info right there.  plus in a sleeve you cant tell a proxy from a real card b/c of the way i trim the scan.  so no accusations that you're cheating b/c this or that card "feels" thicker.

[Anusien]

Peeled foils and stickered cards both have potential to be marked in a sleeve.  This is why SCG doesn't allow these methods.

[vassago]

At the gaming store I work at, we only allow ten proxies, but that is to intise people into actually obtaining the cards. I know that sounds so evil towards people's wallets. Muahahaha We also have fickle dreams of being able to sanction our t1's in the future, which would be totally awesome. 

As for KMC perfect fits, absolutely love them!  A month or two after we introduced them here at our store, they became the best selling sleeve we have ever had. This makes me sad, because it used to be purple dragon shields, a personal favorite of mine. 

[Purple Hat]

Peeled foils and stickered cards both have potential to be marked in a sleeve.  This is why SCG doesn't allow these methods.

how do you mark them any worse than using regular foils?

Also how is the potential of marked cards in theory maybe making it into the deck worse than actual proxies that confuse game play and cause misplays because they aren't recognizable as proxies?  It seems that the second is a real problem that many people attest to having and is far more difficult to deal with.

[Harlequin]

I think this brings up a good point about card thickness paranoia.

People put way too much thougth and effort into claiming they can 'feel' the differance between the thinkness of X and Y.  He're the real test if a card is marked or not.  Take 3 sleaved card, 2 'normal' cards and 1 of the 'thick' or 'thin' cards.  Shuffle the remaining deck and cut it into 3 piles.  Now put each of the 3 cards on top.  Now, at arms length without touching the deck - Find the 'thick/thin' card 3 times in a row. 

If you can do it, then yes, the cards are marked.  Being able to pick up two cards, and rub them around between your fingers and then flip over the thicker card is totally never going to matter.  If my opponent fingers thier top card before deciding to fetch or not - I'm calling a judge.

[Purple Hat]

I think this brings up a good point about card thickness paranoia.

People put way too much thougth and effort into claiming they can 'feel' the differance between the thinkness of X and Y.  He're the real test if a card is marked or not.  Take 3 sleaved card, 2 'normal' cards and 1 of the 'thick' or 'thin' cards.  Shuffle the remaining deck and cut it into 3 piles.  Now put each of the 3 cards on top.  Now, at arms length without touching the deck - Find the 'thick/thin' card 3 times in a row. 

If you can do it, then yes, the cards are marked.  Being able to pick up two cards, and rub them around between your fingers and then flip over the thicker card is totally never going to matter.  If my opponent fingers thier top card before deciding to fetch or not - I'm calling a judge.

asside from the obvious "call a judge when your opponent is acting suspiciously," the foil layer on a card is not the same as the a folded up sheet of paper which may slide, be removed, stick out of the top of the sleve, or just be rather thick.  We're talking about something thinner than a sheet of paper here.  If my opponenet can honestly reliably feel that and use it to set his deck....I'm willing to conceed that game rather than face the ambiguity of difficult to read notes on lands across the table and upside down.

[Harlequin]

The slip of paper is a differant issue.  I'm more talking about foils, as well as cards that have been 'modified' with an erraser, 500-Sand Paper, or with acrylic paint.  The arguement is that you can 'feel' the differance.  To a certain extent this is true, usually it leaves the card slightly rougher on the face, so if you press the card hard between your fingers and rub it alittle (even through a sleeve) it has a bit more of a bumpy texture.  But it begs the question: who is 'feeling' thier cards before they draw them?

 

[Purple Hat]

yeah, I was agreeing.

I just find the only plausable argument to be visably marked cards rather than textural marking for exactly the reason you said.

[John Jones]

The way I make proxies is to take a bottle of acetone and use Q tips to remove the card name and text box. (use a card w/ the same type and castng cost) Then just fine point sharpie the name and the text if possible. Some proxies like Illusionary Mask are not possible though.

[chrissss]

2nd - If this was important, I expect that these same people would ban non-english cards.  They don't have all game effecting text. 

qft.

the other day in a vintage tourney one guy pretty much had any card he could get in japanese or another asian language, he had in his deck. it sucks, especially when it comes to subtle wordings.

About sleeves, I use the black dragon sleeves, and then I use Ultra pro invisible sleeves over them to double sleeve. it goes well, except the ultra pro sleeves have a lot of friction, and after X games they become very hard to shuffle.

I would like it if tournaments allowed nice proxies, which are way more fun to play against compared to basic land + ugly handwriting. check the altered cards thread on scg, its amazing, yet they arent allowed as proxies, which sucks imo.

[reaperbong]

Magiccards.info has a wonderful feature where you can click PRINT PROXIES on any card and choose between 1,2,3 or 4 to print in exact size. but i guess that's just meant for casual use? smh

[Thisson]

I would like it if tournaments allowed nice proxies, which are way more fun to play against compared to basic land + ugly handwriting. check the altered cards thread on scg, its amazing, yet they arent allowed as proxies, which sucks imo.

Why aren't these cards allowed as proxies?  Isn't this the correct rule:

"The DCI Universal Rules state: 'Cards used in a tournament may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or artistic modifications.  Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card unrecognizable. If modifications to a card are deemed by the Head Judge to constitute outside notes or unsporting conduct, the player using such cards will be subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.'"

[stu55]

I think 25 proxies is way high, and the maximum should be around 15, and maybe only 10. It's soooo annoying playing against bad proxies, especially when there are a lot of them. It's very easy to confuse one card for another, or forget something's in play because it's proxied on an island. It's actually really unfair to the opponent of the person using proxies. For this reason, I feel the proxy rules should be very strict, preferably proxying over a similiar card, with full name, rules text, and casting cost a requirement.

Here are the numbers for my tournament with the 25/25/25 rule: 16, 7, 4, 20, 10, 17, 0, 8, 13, 9, 39, 0, 15, 0, 8, 0, 0, 6, 0, 0, 20, 2, 55, 20, 17, 25

So that is 26 people. If I cut it down to 15 proxy I get 17ppl instead. At 10 I only get 15....so how is it ever +EV to run these things if I am going to give out $600 worth of prizes and only bring in $300?