/{W}rists (Black White Suicide)

[nineisnoone]

Quick Card explanations

No fetch lands.  Avoids Stifle (incidental) and allows you to run Suppression Field (primary reason).

Suppression Field.  Really slows down the mana development on fetch lands and basically annoys everything else in the world.  It doesn't "stop" Tezzeret per se, but forcing them to tap at least 4 mana (if not 5 with Key) to go infinite seriously limits their ability to win.  Dropping a second should easily seal it.  As a bonus it works on things Null Rod doesn't.

Null Rod.  Mox. Tezzeret.  Grindstone.  Other things.  As a bonus it works on things (Moxen) that Suppression Field doesn't.

Hide/Seek.  Sadly it's only Seek, no Hide.  Still it pulls Time Vault, Grindstone, Yawgmoth's Will, Darksteel Colossus.  The life gain off a Darksteel Colossus can be very relevant.  (if only I could get the Hide part in here as well).

Raven's Crime.  It's seriously amazing even without support.  Turning dead lands into discards is incredibly strong.

Duress/Thoughtseize/Path to Exile Swords to Plowshares.  Obviously.

Negator/Confidant. Obviously.

Not sure about the last 4 slots. Creatures.  Kataki seems like a decent hinderance.  Exalted can be cast as a morph under a Ritual and can unmorph late game for a nice effect. If only the umorph was  .  Does unmorphing count as an activated ability?  I don't think it does, but I could be wrong.  I think it's just an alternate cost to playing it (again, I guess) I've also considered Aven Mindsensor.  Ashenmoor Gouger is a 4/4 for 3 and playable off a Ritual as well.

Waste/Strip.  Unfortunately you have to pay 2 (or more) go use these, but at the moment I didn't really see much better options out there.  I do need the mana.
Mana
4   Scrubland
4   Godless Shrine
4   Caves of Koilos
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Emerald
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus   

Creatures
2   Kataki's War Wage
2   Aven Mindcensor
4   Dark Confidant   
4   Jotun Grunt

Annoying Things
4   Null Rod
4   Supression Field   

Disruption Things
4   Cruel Edict
4   Duress   
4   Thoughtseize   
2   Hide/Seek
2   Extirpate
1   Demonic Consultation

SIDEBOARD

+4 Swords (Aggro
+4 Aura of Silence (Shops/Oath)
+2 Extirpate (Ichorid/General Card)
+2 Hide/Seek (Time Vault)
+3 Vamp/Demonic/Enlightened

[Troy_Costisick]

I question your use of Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares.  Since your deck is obviously geared toward mana denial, does it make sense- especially with no Mindcensors- to play Path over Swords?

[nineisnoone]

Actually,that should be changed.  Originally, my 9-12 creatures were Aven Mindsensor.  It's going back to Swords though.  Mindsensor likely will not be the ultimate winner for that slot, so you are right on Path.  Mindsensor just felt too redundant with Suppression Field. 

Ashenmoor Gouger and Fulminator Mage are the top contenders for 9-12.  Fulminator is kind of slow damage wise.  But it is great in the Ichorid match-up and can pick off random lands that got through your Supression Field.  It's basically the version of Mindsensor that I really wanted.  Ashenmoor is just such a great clock.  I suppose Gathan Riders and Grinning Demon should be considered as well, if I'm going purely on a clock basis.

If I ran Fulminator, would that mean I could run Zoetic Cavern?  I always wanted an excuse to run that card.

[Troy_Costisick]

If I ran Fulminator, would that mean I could run Zoetic Cavern?  I always wanted an excuse to run that card.

Fulminator Mage certainly has all the qualities a Vintage creature needs.  2+ power, can do something when it comes into play, hoses non-basic lands, and even works under a Moon effect.  His double black casting cost makes me reluctant to recomend him fully.  That could be because I'm just a coward sometimes    But even with Dark Rit, he would be tough IMO to get into play.  Has he been a problem for you in testing?  I want to be on record as definitely liking him, though.  As for Zoetic Cavern, you might try one or two.  He's no good if you draw him early. 

Peace,

-Troy

[nineisnoone]

To be honest, I've been testing more with Ashenmoor Gouger than Fulminator.  Mostly, I just note how many times I wish Ashenmoor was Fulminator.  There are a few times, but I'm not sure if it swings me there.  Often times it feels like a very expensive Wasteland (particularly under Suppression Field).

I haven't really been having too many problems getting either into play.  Though when I have a Wasteland, I usually consider it to be a positive even if I would need another black to hardcast something.  Mostly, I think of it as long run parity broken by the other disruption pieces.  So even if it color screws me, I presume that it's going to hurt the opponent more in the long run.

I do feel like there needs to be some additional land destruction support beyond Wasteland though. I am actually seriously considering running Armageddon.  Slow them down with Field/Rod.  Play something a creature or two.  2 lands + Ritual and cast Armageddon.  Rod and Field mean that your mana top decks will be superior to theirs since you have Ritual, aren't as reliant on Moxen, and don't run fetchlands.  I suppose I could also just run Crucible and maybe some tutors for Strip.

It's all kind of in the formative stage though.  I'm mostly trying to figure out how to address the Shop and Aggro match-ups in the sideboard.  However, the core of the main deck feels very strong against Combo/Control.  Suppression Field and Wasteland are solid anti-Ichorid cards.  However, I don't really have great cards for the Shop match-up.  Aggro in this color should be easy to deal with, but I'm not sure how to approach Shop.  My initial impulse is 4x Serenity, but it just feels like there should be a more elegant solution.

[IthilanorStPete]

To answer the rules question: unmorphing is a special action, not an activated ability.

[silvernail]

Aura of Silence is an option, but it may be too slow.

[Purple Hat]

why not just play sinkhole for the extra LD?

[Negator13]

Ethersworn Canonist seems good here, I like it alot more than Fulms. Chains of Mephistopheles?

[CHOZO]

What about Tidehollow Sculler?

[salthecarp]

With all the mana denial do you think Glowrider would be a good nail in the coffin? I can also see how he could push the mana curve a little too high and you do seem to have a lot of non-creature spells. It still seems like an option worth exploring though, particularly if you start including Tidehollow Scullers. Kudos for building a deck around Suppression Field.
-Peter

[nineisnoone]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Aura of Silence is an option, but it may be too slow.

Yeah.  Three isn't that bad, but double white is a bit of a pain.  Plus, it would be difficult to activate under Suppression Field.  Though I suppose, that's not really much of an issue.  It does look solid as an anti-Shop answer with applications elsewhere.

why not just play sinkhole for the extra LD?

I've considered it, I've just felt that Armageddon (would only run 1 or maybe 2) would be a better impact card.  Sinkhole works best as a clincher when you've already tied them up.  But Armageddon can do that and work as an independent card for the same effect, albeit independent assuming you have mana to cast it.

Ethersworn Canonist seems good here, I like it alot more than Fulms. Chains of Mephistopheles?

Cannonist doesn't play nice with Dark Ritual.  And in general, it's fallen out of favor in my eyes unless it is backed up by a threat.  It's too mutual and easy to deal with if it plays by itself.

Chains is definitely a card I'm considering for the sideboard, but I'm not too sure about in the main.  I am fiddling around with the 3rd Seek and the Raven's Crime though.

What about Tidehollow Sculler?

I've considered it, but I just don't feel it's as big of an impact as I'd like it to be. 

With all the mana denial do you think Glowrider would be a good nail in the coffin? I can also see how he could push the mana curve a little too high and you do seem to have a lot of non-creature spells. It still seems like an option worth exploring though, particularly if you start including Tidehollow Scullers. Kudos for building a deck around Suppression Field.
-Peter

This I like a lot.  I wouldn't run it as a 4x, but as a 2x I likely wouldn't see multiples.  The fact that it is high on the curve isn't that big of a deal since if I do have 3 mana to cast it, then I can cast anything else I have anyways.


Tenatively looking at
-1 Hide/Seek, -1 Raven's Crime

either:
+2 Armageddon
+2 Sinkhole
+2 Extirpate
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Shadow of Doubt

I consider Extirpate the "safe" choice out of these.

-4 Fulminator/Gouger

+2 Glowrider
+2 ???, everything in the world of Kataki, Mindsensor, Jotun, Tidehollow, Fulimator, Gouger, or even just some of the above mentioned cards.  With Glowrider added I think Kataki might be the best choice here, so +2 Kataki's War Wage

-4 Swords
+4 Cruel Edict (to avoid the life gain against DSC)

Tenatively built Sideboard:

+4 Swords (Aggro)
+4 Aura of Silence (Shops)
+4 Pithing Needle (Wasteland/Ichorid)
+3 Vamp/Demonic/Enlightened (for match-ups where getting the SB cards are more important)

[the boogie man]

If you are just looking for a clock, was tombstalker tested? He seems to be really big for what he costs, But would he come out fast enough?

[swawagon]

Dark Confidant and Tombstalker don't work too well together. Usually one or the other.

Vindicate is pretty solid though and Sculler is really strong. I like Canonist too.

Fumigator seems pretty weak and Suppression Field hurts it too. Sinkhole or Vindicate would probably just be easier and can hit Basic lands.

Phrexian Negator isn't great here. Hyppie, Nantuko Shade (I guess not with Suppression Field), or Jotun Grunt function much better against anything with critters.

[nineisnoone]

Why would Negator be bad here?  And I mean here as opposed to any other deck that has ran him in the past?  I've always found the 4 turn clock to be more relevant than Hyppie.

[swawagon]

Negator most often these days has often been brought in as a beater that say TPS has in the Sideboard, if it knows that Negator can swing un-molested by other creatures.

I guess I mean Negator is more meta dependent. If you don't expect to see any creatures I guess he's fine. Against many TEZ lists I suppose Negator is pretty good. Negator is just a preference that I have played and not loved. It doesn't disrupt opponents and facing other creatures with any decent size it doesn't do damage too well either. Comparatively Hippie disrupts while beating and flying.

[nineisnoone]

But that's mostly because it's a SB creature put for a different purpose in TPS decks and people don't really run Sui-Black.  And if they do they just splash G for 'Goyf.  I consider him to be a presumptive auto-include until I encounter too many creatures. 

Most aggro decks I find are really creature light anyways.  If it's just an opposing 'Goyf, either they attack and the draw back is irrelevant.  Or they don't attack and we play the long game.  I'm not especially sure I'll win the long game, but I don't feel all to disadvantaged by it.

It does make me wonder about my choice of removals though.  Edict over Swords does make aggro match-ups worse.  Also in the sideboard Darkblast might be a better overall choice if I run Swords in the main.  Darkblast is just wins the game against most aggro decks (presuming you have Swords for 'Goyf).  There isn't much in terms of aggro decks that you can't kill with Darkblast during the upkeep, dredge Darkblast main phase.  In the alternative, Edict makes any post-board Oath Archangel inclusions moot and doesn't give the opponent 11 life of turns.

[nineisnoone]

If you are just looking for a clock, was tombstalker tested? He seems to be really big for what he costs, But would he come out fast enough?

I haven't tested him.  I didn't consider the dissynergy with Confidant (though in retrospect that would be preclusive on it's own), but I also don't run fetch lands so it's pretty had to make him cost a reasonable amount.  He's better as a Negator type sideboard card in non-aggro decks that want a creature as a secondary win.

[TopSecret]

I think you should add in Mindcensor somewhere.

It does everything your deck is trying to accomplish and then some,
knocking off fetchlands, stopping tutors, Tinker, and a host of other things.
He's effectively LD against any normal fetchland filled deck,
and he stops the opponent from tutoring for outs too, which is important.

[nineisnoone]

My main issue Mindsensor is that 3 mana is a bit high. I don't run full acceleration, and it can't be played of a Ritual on turn 1.  It's at best a turn 2 play.  I'm not dismissing it.  It's still in the back of my head, but at times it just felt to slow to come down early, and often it's just a beater if it's late. 

It is definitely something I am considering though.

Changes I am making though.
-4 Negator +4 Grunts
-4 Dark Ritual +4 Simian Spirit Guides.

I only need 1 more mana to be able to play Null Rod on turn 1, the third (while certainly useful) is unnecessary for that specific play.
However, land, Ritual will not get me a turn 1 Supression Field whereas land, Simian would. 
Simian also lets me play the Hide portion of Hide/Seek which can occasionally be useful.
Finally, post-board it makes Aura of Silence much stronger.

Also it fixes the issue with Cannonist.  Simian isn't a spell, so I don't have to worry about Dark Ritual being worthless if I eventually choose to run it.  I'm not sure Cannonist is the card I'm looking for, but it at least opens it up as an option.

Finally, while I like the protection against Wasteland.  I'm probably better off addressing it somewhere else (if at all) than running Pithing Needle for that.  Not sure what should take its place though.
   
   
See first/last post.

[TopSecret]

If you're going to add Simians,
why don't you just add in 2 more moxen, Mana Crypt, and potentially something else (Petal?).

Unless hardcasting Simian becomes a relevant bonus,
I don't think he'd be better than playing more moxen and Mana Crypt.
Yes, moxen get turned off by Null Rod,
but if you have Null Rod out, I don't think you should be worrying about mana.

The only situation I can think of where Null Rod shutting off moxen makes Simian better
is if you played Null Rod, you only have two permanent sources, you have a three mana cost in your hand,
and you top deck a mox.

If it was a Simian, it'd be better than a mox,
but that doesn't seem like a likely or relevant situation to me.

The rest of the time, moxen are permanent mana sources when Kataki or Null aren't in play,
making them better than Simian.
I think that would be a more likely thing to happen.

You are also only playing 19 permanent mana sources,
so that makes moxen sticking around a huge bonus.

Also, sacrificing moxen to Kataki can feed Grunt,
and they only reveal for 0 off Confidant, whereas Simian reveals for 3.

PS: 4 Grunts seem like a lot. Perhaps you could add 2 Mindcensor instead,
after you add the moxen, Mana Crypt, and potentially Petal?

[nineisnoone]

You are right about Moxen.  It just hadn't occured to me (for whatever reason).  It makes much more sense for a  variety of reasons. 

I wouldn't add Mana Crypt though.  Sometimes you get rough hand where you open you with a Caves as your color source, and it can be pretty brutal.  Plus, there is already Thoughtseize and and Confidant to consider.

I don't know about cutting the Jotun's.  12 creatures is kind of light when none of them are named Tarmogoyf. I'm open to cutting one of them, but I'm not really minding it too much. 

I have really liked Kataki so far. he worked as a quasi Null Rod 5-6. 

I tried out a Mindcensor again, and while it felt a bit redundant as far as land disruption went, I noticed it more than made up for it against tutors.  Echoing Truth on Suppression is all they need to make all the disruption you worked for nothing.  It's a bonus that it works like Fields 5-6 as well. 

Since there isn't a 4th Moxen to add, I decided to add a main deck D. Consult.  I've always been a fan of it in aggro decks.  I'm kind of a gambling sort of player as well, so I've taken the shot a D. Consult for Black Lotus a few times to get a turn 1 Suppression Field down.

-4 Simian Spirit Guides + 4 Lotus Petal/Mox Sapphire/Mox Emerald/Demonic Consultation
-2 Glowrider + 2 Mindsensor

Mana
4   Scrubland
4   Godless Shrine
4   Caves of Koilos
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Emerald
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus   

Creatures
2   Kataki's War Wage
2   Aven Mindcensor
4   Dark Confidant   
4   Jotun Grunt

Annoying Things
4   Null Rod
4   Supression Field   

Disruption Things
4   Cruel Edict
4   Duress   
4   Thoughtseize   
2   Hide/Seek
2   Extirpate
1   Demonic Consultation

SIDEBOARD

+4 Swords (Aggro
+4 Aura of Silence (Shops/Oath)
+2 Extirpate (Ichorid/General Card)
+2 Hide/Seek (Time Vault)
+3 Vamp/Demonic/Enlightened

[merfolkOTPT]

I play a very different version of this deck with glowriders, thorn of amethyst and ancient tomb.  Basically, Sculler is insane, he is so good in this style of deck better even then duress, he gets everything and he beats for two.  I have thought about suppression field in my version but basically it seems unnecessary, I would much rather run both Null rod, because it actually shuts stuff off, and Aven Mindcensor because it is unexpected whereas suppression field is easier to play around. 

Anyhow, my deck just loses to Progenitus Oath, you? 

I also am running 3 main deck seal of cleansing and more SB hate for Stax to try and have some game against them, once again, you?

[nineisnoone]

Suppression Field is better than Mindcensor.  Not dissing Mindcensor by saying that, but they are not really the same.  Aside from Tinker, Supression Field is pretty much superior against all other strategies.  I don't know what you mean about playing around Supression Field.  Mindcensor is actually easier to play around then Supression Field, and much slower. And I run Null Rod and Mindcensor so dunno what that was all about.  I like Sculler a lot, but he is no replacement for Duress/Thoughtseize.  It's sort of like comparing Mana Drain to Force of Will.  Mana Drain is a better card, but it doesn't replace Force of Will.

To be honest, you're not playing a different version of this deck.  You are playing a different deck.

As far as Progenitus goes, I run Edicts in the main deck and Aura of Silence in the sideboard.  For me, it's not really any different than any other Oath match-up.

What does your list look like?