[Deck Primer]: Christmas Beatings

[RenatoAmado]

Here is the correct list of John Jones deck:

1st Place John Jones – “RG BEATZ”
1 Berserk
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Stingscourger
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tinstreet Hooligan
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Artifact Mutation
4 Null Rod
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothillls

Sideboard:
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Dismember
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Shattering Spree
1 Nature’s Claim

[Legolas]

@Troy_Costisick (or anyone else who would like to chime in):
I noticed that the last couple of lists you most recently posted lacked Null Rod and kept Chalice of the Void. John Jones' list kept the Null Rod and dropped the Chalice. What is your evaluation and comparison of these two cards in today's meta?
My thoughts:
Chalice is nice because it comes in on turn 1. Null Rod can come down on turn 1, but less reliably so. Chalice can be set to counter a broader range of cmc's, but Null Rod takes out a broader range of artifact strategies. I like the speed of chalice and the versatility of Null Rod. Did you find that the speed of Chalice was more important than the versatility against artifacts of Rod?

Looking at Mr. Jones' list made me realize that artifact mutation will give you a turn or two (depending upon what other creatures you have on the board) against BSC: although artifact mutation won't destroy BSC, it will give you 11x 1/1s. Nice tech, but you probably already knew that. 

The only cards I wonder about in his list are the rack and ruins: they feel clunky, unless you are under 3sphere. In their place I would opt for more shattering sprees (does well under 3sphere, can take out multiple artifacts, gets around chalice), Ingot Chewer(same as spree, but can only take out one artifact),  or seal of primordium (to help against enchantments and to boost tarmo). In the same vein of boosting tarmo, Pyroblast could be used main deck instead of/in combination with REB. I also thought the berserk was out of place, but as he said it was an homage to a friend. We always need to remind ourselves that this is primarily a control deck with a beat down clock to apply pressure as a second plan. At first I didn't like the Smash to smithereens, but a Shatter and an instant speed lava spike for 1R is nothing to shake a stick at: efficient and versatile.

There are so many great anti-artifact and anti-enchantment cards for this deck (seal of primordium, natures claim, hull breach, artifact mutation, Smash to Smithereens, ingot chewer, shattering spree, goblin welder, manic vandal, goblin vandal), it is difficult to determine what is the best mix. To boot, artifact mutation, Smash to Smithereens, ingot chewer, manic vandal and goblin vandal help our aggro plan. But, I shouldn't complain, options are nice.

I think Shusher is going to be the flagship creature of this deck (along with magus of the moon, of course). Shusher plays nice with chalice and he will certainly make all of your blue wielding opponents frown. Shusher and Stingscourger reminded me of one of my favorite cards: Goblin Grenade! I know the 'nade is a big no no: if the Goblin Grenade and the goblin being sacrificed were two Lightning bolts, you'd be able to deal 6 damage pointed at two different targets. But if the goblin has done some damage (Goblin Guide, Goblin Arsonist) or has done something useful (see Stingscourger, Tin-street Hooligan), then the disadvantage of goblin grenade may be mitigated.  Deck space is very tight in the Xmas beatings lists, so there may not be space to squeeze it in. 'Nade is also very aggro and probably not controlling enough for vintage. What do people think about it along side or in place of Lightning bolt as an explosive finisher? A list with goblin grenade would have to pack a maximum number of goblins. We already have tarmogoyf, magus and the spirit guides. Goblin Grenade might be better suited in a mono-red, goblin heavy list without tarmo and elvish spirit guides (although Tin-street Hooligan like G). Also, shapeshifters/changelings like Taurean Mauler can be used with Gobllin grenade (and Metamorph when it copies a gobo).
Here are the goblins I could see playing in this type of deck in vintage with Goblin Grenade:
Vexing Shusher
Tinstreet Hooligan
Stingscourger
Goblin Welder
Taurean Mauler (maybe too slow)
Mogg Sentry (probably not effective enough)
Goblin Guide (questionable but would work well with the aggro plan of 'nade)
Goblin Arsonist
goblin vandal (Tinstreet Hooligan/welder are probably better)
Phyrexian Metamorph
Let me know if you can think of any other vintage viable goblins. I know the Goblin Grenade is a bit of a pet card, so I am certainly not advocating that everyone rearrange their christmas beatings or R decks to accommodate it. Just food for thought.

Well, that was a long post. I guess I've been holding in all this enthusiasm for Christmas beatings! YAAYYY for Christmas! Maybe I should post in smaller bits more often.  until next time, may all of your mountains and forests be snow-covered!
Legolas

[Troy_Costisick]

I noticed that the last couple of lists you most recently posted lacked Null Rod and kept Chalice of the Void. John Jones' list kept the Null Rod and dropped the Chalice. What is your evaluation and comparison of these two cards in today's meta?

Here's how I feel about Null Rod:  Rod does not help me protect myself from Tinker.  Back when Metalworkers were all the rage, Rod was better, but Christmas Beatings must be able to fend off Tinker.  Rod doesn't do that.  I like 4 Chalice + 4 Shaman to deal with artifact mana.  My experience tells me, that's the best combination.  Now, obviously Null Rod worked well for John's deck, so I don't want to discount that result.  But I also suspect that his opponents were unprepared for an R/G Beatz deck that tournament and therefore misplayed several games.  Going in a second time, I would suggest John focus on Chalice/Shaman because his opponents' primary line of play (if they know he's on R/G) will be to find and cast Tinker ASAP.

Peace,

-Troy

[vaughnbros]

I noticed that the last couple of lists you most recently posted lacked Null Rod and kept Chalice of the Void. John Jones' list kept the Null Rod and dropped the Chalice. What is your evaluation and comparison of these two cards in today's meta?

Here's how I feel about Null Rod:  Rod does not help me protect myself from Tinker.  Back when Metalworkers were all the rage, Rod was better, but Christmas Beatings must be able to fend off Tinker.  Rod doesn't do that.  I like 4 Chalice + 4 Shaman to deal with artifact mana.  My experience tells me, that's the best combination.  Now, obviously Null Rod worked well for John's deck, so I don't want to discount that result.  But I also suspect that his opponents were unprepared for an R/G Beatz deck that tournament and therefore misplayed several games.  Going in a second time, I would suggest John focus on Chalice/Shaman because his opponents' primary line of play (if they know he's on R/G) will be to find and cast Tinker ASAP.

Peace,

-Troy

He is running stingscourger, rebs, and phyrexian metamorph to handle blightsteel.  Seeing as even with chalice at 0 out and a mox monkey theres no guarantee your opponent cant tinker, most decks with tinker also have volatic key, time vault, sensei's top, and sol ring.  To devote 8 slots to chalice and mox monkey compared to 4 slots to null rod, when null rod is also more effective at stopping other things seems inefficient.  If the deck could generate tons of mana for monkey to smash larger than moxes or if chalice could be set at anything other than 0 and 4+ then i think you would have a good argument but neither of these are the case.

[Troy_Costisick]

I noticed that the last couple of lists you most recently posted lacked Null Rod and kept Chalice of the Void. John Jones' list kept the Null Rod and dropped the Chalice. What is your evaluation and comparison of these two cards in today's meta?

Here's how I feel about Null Rod:  Rod does not help me protect myself from Tinker.  Back when Metalworkers were all the rage, Rod was better, but Christmas Beatings must be able to fend off Tinker.  Rod doesn't do that.  I like 4 Chalice + 4 Shaman to deal with artifact mana.  My experience tells me, that's the best combination.  Now, obviously Null Rod worked well for John's deck, so I don't want to discount that result.  But I also suspect that his opponents were unprepared for an R/G Beatz deck that tournament and therefore misplayed several games.  Going in a second time, I would suggest John focus on Chalice/Shaman because his opponents' primary line of play (if they know he's on R/G) will be to find and cast Tinker ASAP.

Peace,

-Troy

He is running stingscourger, rebs, and phyrexian metamorph to handle blightsteel.  Seeing as even with chalice at 0 out and a mox monkey theres no guarantee your opponent cant tinker, most decks with tinker also have volatic key, time vault, sensei's top, and sol ring.  To devote 8 slots to chalice and mox monkey compared to 4 slots to null rod, when null rod is also more effective at stopping other things seems inefficient. 

But look at what Chalice and Shaman give you that Null Rod does not.  They are both turn 1 plays that can easily be backed up by a Red Blast.  That's nearly impossible to do with Null Rod on turn 1.  Chalice prevents Moxen from entering play at all, Shaman kills Moxen that are already in play.  Null Rod can't do either of these. 

If the deck could generate tons of mana for monkey to smash larger than moxes...

This deck gets to three mana easily enough.  That's all that monkey requires to eat a Key, and with the utter lack of creature kill and the abundance of Hurkyl's in this format, I'd be willing to bet I could keep a Monkey in play longer than a Null Rod.

I will hedge a bit, though.  I haven't tested Metamorph + Null Rod as solid answers to BSC or Golems.  In the age of Mental Misstep, that may indeed be a better (but much slower) combo.  My concern in this regard are mostly related to having the mana to both cast and protect these spells with Red Blasts.

[vaughnbros]

But look at what Chalice and Shaman give you that Null Rod does not.  They are both turn 1 plays that can easily be backed up by a Red Blast.  That's nearly impossible to do with Null Rod on turn 1.  Chalice prevents Moxen from entering play at all, Shaman kills Moxen that are already in play.  Null Rod can't do either of these.  

If the deck could generate tons of mana for monkey to smash larger than moxes...

This deck gets to three mana easily enough.  That's all that monkey requires to eat a Key, and with the utter lack of creature kill and the abundance of Hurkyl's in this format, I'd be willing to bet I could keep a Monkey in play longer than a Null Rod.

I will hedge a bit, though.  I haven't tested Metamorph + Null Rod as solid answers to BSC or Golems.  In the age of Mental Misstep, that may indeed be a better (but much slower) combo.  My concern in this regard are mostly related to having the mana to both cast and protect these spells with Red Blasts.

I was originally arguing null rod for its superiority to chalice and mox monkey in mana denial and I wouldnt really consider null rod or mox monkey an answer to tinker as all null rod does is makes them wait until turn 3 and mox monkey makes them have to play and sacrifice their mox in the same turn.  If your talking just about tinkering i would agree chalice is definitely better at stopping tinker than null rod.

From my experience the best answer to tinker definitely has to be stingscourge, the issue with him is obviously hes pretty terrible at doing everything else.

As a result of this i think a combination of welder, chalice, metamorph and reb is probably the best way of answering a tinker, since all of these cards are solid even when your opponent isn't tinkering.

If you are going to go with the 4 chalice 4 monkey strategy i would strongly advise vexing shusher as it allows you to aggressively play your chalices.

[Troy_Costisick]

Another Christmas Beatings top 8ed here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43534.msg597275;boardseen#new

Here's the list:

Semi-Finalist – Jason Vo


1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Simian Spirit Guid
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tinstreet Hooligan
3 Stingscourger
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Deglamer
2 Smash to Smitherens
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Mountain

SB:
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroclasm

[XYTB]

Not sure if this report belongs here but I figure it is valuable to the deck.  If it doesn't belong here then feel free to move it

Players Guild Tournament Report

Hey guys, I'm Jason Vo and I thought I'd leave a tournament report about my games at the Players Guild event for Nov 2011!
Some quick info about me, I just came back to playing Vintage after taking some time off from play for a bit.  It's great to see that the format is rich in many decktypes and that anything can pull it's weight right now.

I am a really big fan of playing Season's Beatings right now as I love to play Null Rod centric decks in the format, and it's always enjoyable to beat people down with creatures .  I feel the deck has all of the necessary tools to prove it's worth in our current metagame, and has so many options it's really tough to settle on one definitive build for the deck.  Anyways onto the report.

Round 1 vs Brandon Brown playing Cat Stax. (Win 2-0)

Game 1 I lose the coin toss and he plays some stuff, I go and resolve a Magus of the Moon.  He doesn't get anything spectacular going yet thanks to Magus and I start beating down with Magus and play Vexing Shusher.  He essentially is hosed by magus and maggie and shusher go the distance.
Game 1  he plays Mishra's Workshop, Sphere of resistance go.  I wasteland his workshop with 2 lands and a spirit guide in hand.  He goes and plays ghost quarter.  I play land and pass.  He plays another quarter.  I play a land and pass.  He plays an artifact and I Smash to Smithereens it.  On my turn I play Tin Street Hooligan and blow up his sphere.  I waste his quarter.  Next turn I play tarmo and he scoops.

Round 2 Vs Sean Anthony playing East Coast Wins.  (Loss 1-2).

Round 1 I lose the die roll. I get a good start but overplay my hand and smash something that I shouldn't have instead of waiting to deglamer something.  He comboes out at 10 life.
Round 2 I resolve an early game Null Rod and Vexing Shusher.  The rod doesn't hurt him too much in the beginning but pulls it's weight as he draws into vault/key and moxen.  Shusher goes the distance after killing jace, and later along with magus of the moon. 
Round 3 I resolve an early magus but he removes it.  I feel i should have waited to perhaps play some other things in my hand but I had nothing to deal with his Fastbond/Gush engine that he fires up on turn 2. 

Round 3 vs Bill (last name I forgot, apologies!) playing Noble Fish.  (Win 2-0).

Game 1 I lose the coin toss, he plays Tundra, Mox Pearl, Stony Silence.  My starting hand contains Null Rod and a dead mox, a forest, a fetch, magus of the moon, a guide, and lightning bolt.  I go and play fetch for a mountain and pass after drawing a pyroblast.  He goes and plays Savannah and Quasali Pride Mage.  I go and draw a wasteland.  I play my forest and pass.  He goes and plays wasteland and attacks with the Pride Mage.  I respond by bolting his cat, he  responds by eating the dead mox I played earlier.  Next turn I play a Magus and he forces it, I pyro it back.  Magus goes on to win the game.
Game 2 I don't remember much unfortunately.  I resolve an early game goyf and stop some spells and creatures with blasts and bolts and goyf grows up and wins the game.

Round 4 vs Matthew Gottshall playing Turbo Tezz (Draw for Swiss, play for fun Win 2-0).

After the draw we play a set for fun.
Game 1 I lose the coin toss (sensing a trend here?), he plays a dual and mox and passes.  I play land, spirit guide for mana and drop Vexing Shusher.  He goes and drops another dual.  I play another vexing shusher.  In between shushers go the distance with pyroblasts and standard removal.
Game 2 I play a fetch and pass, he plays a land and mox and passes.  I play a land and pass.  He plays a sol ring.  I play another land and null rod and pass.  He goes and plays a lightning bolt at me.  I go and play Simian Spirit Guide, he has no answer.  I beat him down with the guide for many turns and don't play any spells suspecting mana drain.  He has 3 lands at this point and some dead artifact mana, so I don't want him to drain up to tezzeret.  He eventually removes my guide and I resolve a Vexing Shusher.  Shusher goes the distance making my removal unanswerable.

Top 8. 

I win the coin toss .  I play Matt again play an early Null Rod, he forces it.  I lose game 1 to turn 2 tezzeret/key.  I have no answers to stop it.
Game 2 I draw a fetch, waste, spirit guide, lots of artifact removal and red blasts.  I start out dropping my fetch and pass.  He plays Volcanic Island and a mox.  I play wasteland and waste his volcanic, and play Null Rod off a guide.  I feel I misplayed here as I should have held onto the wasteland, and played vexing shusher off the guide, playing null rod next turn.  I end up getting no more mana for the rest of the game and he builds up enough artifacts and lands to hardcast blightsteel. 
Overall the tournament was a lot of fun and there were some play errors here and there. 

Keynotes of a lot of my losses were trying to rush Null Rod or Magus of the Moon out too early without proper backup (blast or shusher).  Oftentimes I would have a shusher and null rod and would have to choose between the 2.  At no point should you ever rush anything with this deck, you should always take a step back to evaluate the situation.

Hope you enjoyed the report!

[Legolas]

Great work Jason! and thank you for the report. Not sure whether the mods care if the report is here or not, but sure seems appropriate, def on topic! Maybe you can paste it in into the "Global Vintage Tournament Reports and Results" thread pertaining to the tournament you attended as well. You were up against formidable opponents, and the best prey for this deck--blue and shops. Sounds like your deck came through and often had the answers to your opponents. Next time all you can do is practice your die rolling skills!  In light of your results, how would you alter your deck for the future?

So, considering the recent discussion of null rod and chalice of the void, would you ever consider replacing null rod with chalice? Seems like chalice would work nicely with the Vexing shushers in your list. Would chalice (and mox monkey, maybe) have been a faster denial package/more effective against tinker/early moxen? Or, was the null rod necessary to fight vault/key?

Did you ever wish you had more pyroblasts/REB, or was three maindeck, three sideboard enough against blue decks?

What about the two missing ESGs?--It is nice to have more basic lands to stabilize your manabase, but would you trade that for the added explosiveness and usefulness in the face of null rod that the extra spirit guides could add?

Deglamer-great card. How did it perform? Would you trade it for more Tinstreet Hooligan/Smash to Smithereens? Would seal of primordium in place of this card ever have helped your Tarmogoyf be beefier? Maybe phyrexian metamorph could have been a better choice for this slot, but wtf do i know. Deglamer vs artifact mutation?

In round three, game one your opponent "responds by eating the dead mox I played earlier." Did he eat it with his Quasali Pridemage? Was that a miss play on his part??? It was already dead due to the Stony Silence. Seems odd that he would give up his blocker/aggro component to take out a dead card. But, I guess if this was the case, you never know what an opponent maybe thinking/anticipating/rationalizing. In the end, it seemed to benefit you, so maybe best not to question it.

The ghost quarters in the sideboard-- were they ever valuable (in testing or game play)? I feel like those slots could have been better used??? What decks did you bring them in against? With 4xmagus, 4xwaste + strip you are strong in the land denial area. GQ could be good against dredge and shops, but I feel like a more versatile/relevant card could fill this slot.

Dang... with all these questions I must seem like a nosy norman. Just so ya'all know i want to make this deck a BEAST, that's why I ask so many questions.    I play this deck for fun, but I really want to see it go the distance.

[Troy_Costisick]

Keynotes of a lot of my losses were trying to rush Null Rod or Magus of the Moon out too early without proper backup (blast or shusher).  Oftentimes I would have a shusher and null rod and would have to choose between the 2.  At no point should you ever rush anything with this deck, you should always take a step back to evaluate the situation.

This is the best advice anyone can give when it comes to Christmas Beatings.  This is not the old fashioned R/G Beatz of the 2nd Gush Era.  Christmas Beatings is a control deck in an aggro diguise.  You have to play patiently, thoughtfully, and tightly.  If you can, then you'll win.  Great report, Jason.

Peace,

-Troy

[XYTB]

Thanks for the complements guys!

@ Legolas here are some answers to your questions and just some thoughts on my card choices for the event.

Null Rod vs. Chalice :  Right now I have gone back to running Null Rod over chalice as it severely hampers most of the decks I run into (different blue decks, workshops), shuts off vault/key and generates a lot of theoretical card advantage while it lasts.  Chalice is faster but any deck that I've had to play against thus far that is abusing Tinker/Colossus usually still finds a way to pull it off (Sol Ring, Voltaic Key, Sensei's Divining Top, Mana Vault, Time Vault to name a few), and running Chalice usually doesn't stop those, even if it stops the  moxen.  I admit it is nice to stop those moxen definitely, and buy valuable time to set up the game on my side, but one of the problems that comes up very often is losing the die roll.  The report I gave reflects how sometimes you just don't win those rolls haha, so in that case the rod worked out a lot better for me.  I would also like to note that chalice does not effectively stop all of Storm or Gush/bond decks either as they can still play and replay their 0 costs with Yawgs, and still ramp their count, you just hose the mana production of those items. 

I honestly think you should probably run both Null Rod and Chalice either as 3/3 or 4Nr/2Cotv, based on what i've seen so far, and then sideboard as appropriate.
As for Gorilla Shaman I am always taking them out or putting them in, but based on the last 4 tourneys I played in they have not really been pulling their weight, their weight has been being pulled by Null Rod usually.

I have been running 3 Pyroblast effects in the main for quite a few events now, the deck is already really strong against blue, especially with the addition of Vexing Shusher. THere are a lot of games where the blasts are dead cards, like vs shops for example, and it sucks to draw two red blasts game one, so I went with 3.  Running 3 I still see them often enough game one, and shusher forces important stuff through.  4 is still good, i would suggest to cut something down like a shusher or some other spell if that is the case.  Thanks to running Vexing Shusher I can actually cut down on the amount of Red Blasts between my main and sideboard (5 total) opening up valuable room in the board a bit, and still have plenty of answers game 2.

The two missing Elvish Spirit Guides is still a point of debate for me.  I took them out and cut down the land to 17 in favor of running two moxen.  I do feel as of this moment that 18 lands is actually the right count, as it should yield 2 lands in an opening hand especially on the draw.  The moxes pull their weight a vast majority of the time, but are easily replaceable by the two guides.  A lot of games even if I land a mox and Null Rod, i might not play the rod right away thanks to having shusher, or if I have moxen and spirit guides can back it up with pyro here and there.  Occasionally the mox can bite you if you have absolutely nothing else to rely on and are stuck with a rod but I have found good play/mulligans and game flow usually prohibit this.  Running the two moxes I use them as a sort of permanent spirit guide or a pseudo land, as I enjoy them sticking around opposed to a spirit guide just poofing away, and thanks to adding more creatures to the deck via Tin-Street and shusher I don't need to worry about having late game beaters normally.

Deglamer.  I swear by this card.  It's shuffle into deck effect has saved me a million times and can oftentimes set the opponent back on resources hard (deglamer a mox or sol ring for example - they can't replay it from the yard or hand, or they tinker something important up losing a tutor, 2 cards, and the target effect).  I usually only run 2 once in a while 3rd in the board.  It also functions as a defacto Stingscourger with other uses and instant speed.

Artifact mutation.  I really wanted to run this card for the event but left it out.  I think it's a great card deserving a slot in the deck, but trying to figure out how to get one or two to comfortably fit...well that is another discussion .

I playtested with Phyrexian Metamorph for the last 3 weeks and am not too fond of it.  Anything it does is usually already handled in the deck, and I have gotten little use out of it in terms of game breaking plays.  Being it is an artifact and blue as well it gets hated on pretty easily as well.  I'm not saying it is a bad card or anything like that, just that I feel it performs much better in other decks (say Cat Stax), and in our deck it is somewhat redundant and can be tough to get good use out of and occasionally safely cast.

The Quasali Pridemage play was probably just to get some use out of it in some way or another, maybe expecting me to handle his stony silence.

Ghost Quarter is really great vs Shops, Dark times for added strips, and vs Dredge.  It is also effective vs. Landstill which typically only runs a few mishra's and relies on crucible for recursion.  I often run two pithing needle in my board basically vs Dredge or Turbo Tezz, but I already have a good game vs Tezz.  Being that I run only 2 pithing needles with no search whatsoever at this time, I hardly ever see them.  Running 2 GQ is the same, but in conjunction with my already exisiting mana denial they just help to guarantee me to stop those early shops/bazarrs etc and at an uncounterable mana cost-less effect. 

I would also like to note that a lot of people are starting to expect Season's Beatings and respect it as a formidable deck.  I saw some expected tech like boarding in pyroclasms and bolts or fire//ice in decks that don't typically run them (essentially to hate on magus and shusher, relying on magus to give them mountains to cast the spells).  This is very handleable in that we still pack plenty of extra blasts, and we can also run some Blood Moon in the board in place of magus.  The present version of Beatings that I'm using right now, as well as John Jone's version are a lot more creature heavy then older ones, so siding out 2 magus is not a bad idea to run the blood moons instead.

[Troy_Costisick]

I honestly think you should probably run both Null Rod and Chalice either as 3/3 or 4Nr/2Cotv, based on what i've seen so far, and then sideboard as appropriate.
As for Gorilla Shaman I am always taking them out or putting them in, but based on the last 4 tourneys I played in they have not really been pulling their weight, their weight has been being pulled by Null Rod usually.

I have been running 3 Pyroblast effects in the main for quite a few events now, the deck is already really strong against blue, especially with the addition of Vexing Shusher. THere are a lot of games where the blasts are dead cards, like vs shops for example, and it sucks to draw two red blasts game one, so I went with 3.  Running 3 I still see them often enough game one, and shusher forces important stuff through.  4 is still good, i would suggest to cut something down like a shusher or some other spell if that is the case.  Thanks to running Vexing Shusher I can actually cut down on the amount of Red Blasts between my main and sideboard (5 total) opening up valuable room in the board a bit, and still have plenty of answers game 2.

This is some of the most thoughtful and play-driven analysis I've read in quite some time.  What you say makes a great deal of sense to me, and I want to thank you for sharing it.  The only thing I would want to add is that 27 or 28 mana sources is definately the way to go.  I've always leaned toward 28 since very few of the mana sources actually stick around very long.  Wastes, Strip, Spirit Guides, and artifact mana don't provide too many uses before they are nullified.  But I'm pleased to see that the leaner manabases that have been run in the last few decks haven't been hurting its performance.

Peace,

-Troy

[XYTB]

The only thing I would want to add is that 27 or 28 mana sources is definately the way to go.  I've always leaned toward 28 since very few of the mana sources actually stick around very long.  Wastes, Strip, Spirit Guides, and artifact mana don't provide too many uses before they are nullified.

Definitely I agree, there have been a lot of instances where that exact scenario has popped up, and I feel going with at least 9 accel and 18 lands minimum is the way to go at this point Troy

[XYTB]

Chalice vs Null Rod

[/b][/u]

I see a lot of discussion as of late about chalice vs null rod.  I just wanted to chime in a little bit here on chalice vs rod based on my last few tournaments and playtesting experiences.

Most recently, I played at the Blue Bell event trying to run 3 chalice/3 null rod in the deck and it just wasn't happening.  There were plenty of times where I landed chalice for 0 on turn 1, but my opponents always always managed to crawl out of it and land tinker/colossus, either by bounce or destruction.  I note that this occasionally prevented them from firing up tinker as fast as they could have on some occasions (barring the many sacrifices of other various 1 cost or 2 cost artifacts in their place), but really didn't seem to do much as far as stopping tinker was concerned.

I see that the most common response to this is that it slows down the lines of play of them resolving tinker, which is true, but one thing that is not commonly sited is that it also allows them time to draw more cards and prepare answers for casting and resolving tinker.  While it is true that we also are able to draw cards and play other threats, this is especially important because we as Season's Beatings players are not afforded the same sheer brokeness that other colors (typically Blue/Black) grant.  We don't get to play spells that draw multiple cards per turn, improve our card quality outside of some fetchlands, nor do we have any ability to tutor up responses and answers.  I encountered this type of game flow many times at Blue Bell 18  and in many playtesting sessions and smaller tourneys over the last few months, which led me to stop running them.  Unfortunately I convinced myself that it was a good idea to run them again, cutting down 1 Null rod from the main, and eating up another set of valuable card slots for other threats.  This was a mistake, and it made itself evident all throughout my matches at Blue Bell 19.  I must have suffered death to Blightsteel at least 4 or 5 times, even though I packed answers for it, they would inevitably always find themselves being countered.  On occasions where I had shusher out it was sure to be taken care of during ensuing turns of my opponent accumulating resources and answers.

I am beginning to feel that perhaps Chalice has run it's course as a go to for this deck, every event I've run with them they eat up valuable space in the deck and just dont' really hold their weight.  I have never encountered anywhere near the same level of problematic play from using Null Rod.  Most time Null Rod invalidates at least 8 cards in a vast majority of other players decks.  While it is true that they can both bounce and destroy the rod, it does not fool one into thinking that Tinker is taken care of.  It also frees up slots in the deck for other valuable card choices that enable us to secure our plan and more effectively answer Tinker.  In all reality I have gotten much more use out of Root Maze than Chalice and that is not an under exaggeration as it allows the deck time to set up and do it's job, even on the draw.

Chalice has uses like setting it to other numbers, but as Troy often points out we mainly want it to slow down lines of play to Tinker (and Yawg's), and I do indeed consider this it's primary use.  I am simply stating that I feel it has become lacking due perhaps to metagame shifts over the  last year and the deck warrants the usage of other cards.  As far as my own tourney experiences running without Chalice has never hurt me, and indeed has garnered myself and others very good finishes as of late.  What is everyone's thought on this, and what would we consider other options for inclusion?

4 Pyro/Red Elemental Blast?

[/b][/u]

I know this was brought up before, but after playing in a more blue heavy meta again (BBGD19), I would have to say that 4 is probably the way to go just for the extra insurance, even with 4 shushers.  If 4 shushers is too much I would recommend to cut down one to the board or drop the use of another creature or spell down to 3.  As I said in an earlier post 3 is not a bad number where one would not expect to face much blue and more shops and dredge and aggro, but after looking over many many reports and seeing just how much blue is always over represented in Vintage I would say 4 is the safer number and probably the way to go right now, even though I have gotten away with only 3 in the MB many times.  Because Shusher is a creature, oftentimes he is picked off by removal or bounced by Jace, and so on and so forth, so he is extremelty solid but not unhandleable.

[XYTB]

Card Draw?

I have very recently been trying to test out the following cards with varying degrees of success.  I would like to know if anyone else has been testing or thought of the following cards for use lately, and would love to see other suggestions.

Sylvan Library - A free permanent Divining Top every turn, and used with fetches provides some fresh material here and there.
Ohran Viper - yes it costs 3 and has a GG1 cost, but it has deathtouch, and draws cards every turn while doing damage, and has a 3 toughness.  Potentially very good.
Keen Sense - Only costs G but might be tough to get to stick around.  Definitely a consideration in my book though.
Skull-Clamp (Chalices and no Null Rods setups) - Nothing to say here, it's Skullclamp
Sword of Fire and Ice - See above
Regrowth/Noxious Revival - Could be good for when we have something axed off the board that would be good to reclaim.
Worldly Tutor - Our creatures do most of the answering, Worldly can find them for us.




Others

Root Maze - I feel like this card is once again Viable for use in the deck, and makes for an easy board out in a lot of matchups where you don't need it or are on the draw.
Life From the Loam
Crucible of Worlds -  Both Crucible and Life can help us implement our mana denial plan in instances where Magus is or will certainly be answered.
Blood Moon - Odd to mention but given the increasing amount of creature kill, and lack of enchantment kill I feel this card is viable, most definitely in the board, again.
Silhana Ledgewalker -  Can be very good, especially in conjunction with Keen Sense or any of the equipments.
Umezawa's Jitte - It's very good, not much else to say.

[Troy_Costisick]

You make a lot of good points, XYTB.  I definately think Christmas Beatings is in an excellent position right now.  I can't wait to get a chance to play it!

[Troy_Costisick]

If everything goes according to plan, I'll get to play Christmas Beatings tonight in the Online TMD Open.  I'll be playing against Oath (our worst matchup).  Wish me luck!

Peace,

-Troy

[xouman]

Indeed, oath sounds as the worst matchup. How do you plan to face it? Do you expect to have any chance against regular Oath draws? I suppose your best chance is negate him access to green mana, or beat him quickly before he lands an oath.

[Troy_Costisick]

Indeed, oath sounds as the worst matchup. How do you plan to face it? Do you expect to have any chance against regular Oath draws? I suppose your best chance is negate him access to green mana, or beat him quickly before he lands an oath.

I kept him off balance for a while.  Maindeck Seal of Primordium was really good (it's great vs. Gush and Standstill too btw).  The general problem vs. Oath is that we rely on creatures.  Even bomb creatures like Magus of the Moon can be a liability.  Generally speaking, though, the plan is to use Seals or other enchantment hate until you can land Null Rod + Magus of the Moon.  If you can stick those two cards, you cut Oath off from green mana (since they rarely play a basic forest anymore).  If Oath does get out a creature, the backup plan is Dead//Gone and/or Stingscourger.  The problem w/ Commandant's Oath (Rainbow Demon) is that he can keep tutoring up Time Walk and never pass the turn.  It's a very tough deck to win against with Christmas Beatings.

Peace,

-Troy

P.S.  I lost 2-0 to Commandant.  I couldn't get a green source game 2 and that killed me.  I had a Seal of Primordium in hand with Red Blast backup.  Ugh.  Them's the brakes, tho.

[credmond]

You could maybe try Greater Gargadons in the sideboard. Its uncounterable and can buy lots of time until you land a magus and rod or seal. Greater Gargadon is also solid against Landstill and Shops (but in those matchups probably just one coming in from sideboard will do).

[xouman]

Gargadon never convinced me in a deck full of creatures. While it can buy turns for a control deck until you tinker into bsc/play vault+key/tendrils to death, turns mean little for "fish" decks if opponent can play oath. I'm even considering to play Witchbane orb, 4 mana is a a bit too much, but allows winning under a resolved oath. While it's true that oath player can counter Orb or destroy it, it's an option. But it's not a solution against show & tell, so I'm not totally sold...

[Troy_Costisick]

Gargadon never convinced me in a deck full of creatures. While it can buy turns for a control deck until you tinker into bsc/play vault+key/tendrils to death, turns mean little for "fish" decks if opponent can play oath. I'm even considering to play Witchbane orb, 4 mana is a a bit too much, but allows winning under a resolved oath. While it's true that oath player can counter Orb or destroy it, it's an option. But it's not a solution against show & tell, so I'm not totally sold...

In the origninal primer, I suggested Noetic Scales as a four mana answer to Oath and Shop creatures.

[xouman]

Ummmm, it even works for tinker, it's quite interesting. But I'm not sure if this card is better than ensnaring bridge, because you control that effect for both players and costs 1 less. Against Shops I agree that Noctic is better by far, but I'd try porcelain legionnaire of chewer instead.

Btw, I didn't know that card :p

[Troy_Costisick]

Ummmm, it even works for tinker, it's quite interesting. But I'm not sure if this card is better than ensnaring bridge, because you control that effect for both players and costs 1 less. Against Shops I agree that Noctic is better by far, but I'd try porcelain legionnaire of chewer instead.

Btw, I didn't know that card :p

I agree that there are better answers.  But it's a card not too many people know about that has a surprisingly powerful effect.  Just thought I'd re-mention it.  Oh, and in the spirit of this thread and the season,  MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Peace,

-Troy

[Russian Alara]

Troy. after reading this Primer, I can't wait to try this deck and Vintage in general... I do standard mostly. but I will have a dab in Vintage now!

Thanks for getting me interested!

- Onar

[Troy_Costisick]

Troy. after reading this Primer, I can't wait to try this deck and Vintage in general... I do standard mostly. but I will have a dab in Vintage now!

Thanks for getting me interested!

- Onar

Hey, that's great!  Post your results, even if they aren't the best.  The more results we get posted, the better we can refine the deck

Peace,

-Troy

[Troy_Costisick]

I don't know yet what this card means for Christmas Beatings:



But it probably means we're gonna have to start running this card too:

[xouman]

I can't understand whay MM is a needed card in CB because of Cage :/

From my point of view, CB is not affected at all by Cage, and Cage is probably a must in this deck. Better said, Cage should create a new deck around, as null rod did in the past. That said, cards as trinket mage would be more suitable to play Cage, and probably in a short period of time Control decks would change a lot. I expect tezz and bomberman to return (null rod would shine again), combo could increase, and oath may go down.

It's only the first day of Cage, we are still getting used to Tiago, and this new card can make a great impact in Vintage...

[Legolas]

Mental Misstep will be needed in Christmas Beatings to counter opposing Mental Misstep. Mental Misstep will become more prevalent in the format in response to a rise in prevalence of Grafdigger's Cage.

Grafdigger's cage is a great boon to Christmas Beatings. It may eliminate the debate between Null Rod vs. Chalice of the Void and turn it into a discussion of the correct suite of cage/rod/chalice to effectively combat big blue/shops/dredge.

Does cage have any utility with Goblin Welder (I've heard in other threads that it shuts welder off, but I don't know what the official ruling on it will be)?  What does cage take away from Christmas Beatings?... ancient grudge...can't think of anything else.

Along with mental misstep, I think Christmas Beatings also needs to be packing Mindbreak Trap. Mental Misstep, Mindbreak Trap and REB/Pyroblast will allow this deck to compete on the stack with blue control decks.

[xouman]

Vexing susher gives nice interaction on the stack :p But i'm not sure if CB really wants to compete on the stack, since it cannot have the same amount of counterspells. I see CB as an aggro deck with some static hate (null rod, chalice, thorn, wastelands/moons, now cage) and answers against most dangerous menaces, while providing a decent clock (in order to avoid opponent to recover).

Playing some counters as answers it's nice, but if you want to really interact with the stack competing against Big Blue, play blue.