Going rogue: monogreen Enchantress needs you!

[hive dweller]

Well, hello first of all, and let me give you a little background information.

While I have been spending most of my time on drafting in years past, occasionally I like to think about and play a little Vintage. And so, as the Zombies rightly put it, it’s the time of the season again, and I want to develop my own deck for match play once in a while. The reason I’m posting is because with the information I’ll be giving you, I would like to know if I’m on the right track. Is my first thought, Enchantress, suited for the things I want a deck to do?

My touch with vintage has waned so I don’t really know what the fundamental turn is these days. In order not to be humiliated, I’d just play safe and add a lot of hate cards.

That said, deckbuilding starts with the winning concept. It would have to be an efficient finish, reasonably fast/resilient. And since it’s Vintage, an ‘oomph’ effect would be nice.

Next, it would have to be reasonably cheap to assemble. And finally, it would have to make for strategically interesting and interacting games.

Sounds a little too casual? Let’s talk cards then:

Win/8
4 earthcraft
3 squirrel nest
1 words of wilding

So there’s the combo win, well known but hardly played. And if that’s stopped, a words is in here just in case.

Mana/24
20 forest
4 wild growth

Basically, those forests are just the number of devoted slots. I could see adding some acceleration but this is the basic idea.

Draw/8
4 argothian enchantress
1 enchantress’s presence
3 ground seal

Presence is slow as molasses, but there’s not much else, and I’m already counting the seals as draw because that they’ll do for certain, though against certain decks they will be disruptive.

Disruption/10
3 null rod
2 cursed totem
1 strip mine
4 root maze

The deck isn’t very fast, so let’s drag the opponent down into the swamp. While mazes are obvious (and also the reason for lack of fetch), I think a mix of rod and totem might be good because decks that dodge one will likely be caught by the other.

Essential defense/10
4 xantid swarm
4 elephant grass
1 tranquil domain
1 seeds of innocence

Swarms and grass will not stir up much debate. But let’s look at the ‘get out of jail’ cards. While I noted the seemingly fitting seal of primordium, I don’t like it because against decks that warrant such defense, likely there’s more than one threat to be taken down.

Tranquil domain cleans house while sparing my wild growths. And if I can muster the mana, seeds can be a softlock breaker. That’s more of a solution than trading 1 for 1.

To summarize: so far this is but a sketch but I think it might fit my needs. But I am by no means set on this deck yet. I would appreciate it if you would either point out possibilities in Enchantress that I overlooked, or perhaps suggest another decktype.

For my part, your suggestions will be taken to heart, and if you post your improvements I can test it with my friends. Any suggestions on what our gauntlet should look like to resemble decent competition? Thanks for reading and getting me started!

[the boogie man]

First of all, Welcome to the mana drain! I love seeing new posters, especially one with interesting ideas.

Now, to business. Perhaps chalice could find a couple spots in the deck? Root maze and rod are fantastic, but chalice is really fast, and sometimes game-breaking. On the other hand, cursed totem doesn't seem to be maindeck material. perhaps move it to the side, using it against welder and transmuter and whatnot. Then, you could run a 3/3/3 configuration of chalice, rod, and root maze.

And perhaps instead of wild growth, elvish spirit guide could be run. in an emergency, it is a 2/2 beater, but other wise it is acceleration that dodges chalice& rod& spheres.

Have you thought about adding tarmogoyf? he will randomly win you the game on his own, and acts as a pseudo elephant grass against non-ichorid aggro.

rather than try to protect the combo with weak cards like swarm and tranquil domain, seal of primordium actually does things game 1 against a lot of deck, and still draws you cards under enchantress. Speaking of enchantress: Why not run rancor? This would draw, and it would turn enchantress into a real threat. The best part is that they can't 2-for-1 you, because rancor goes back to your hand, waiting to be played and goyf or another enchantress. Also, wasteland is missing, and I guess a couple life from the loam could extend your mid-late game plan by closing the deal with the final combo piece or a game-winning goyf.

[CHOZO]

I don't think Rancor would work because Enchantress can't be the target of spells or abilities.

[hive dweller]

Thanks for chipping in boogie man. Today I sleeved up my list and played some games. Now it is time to comment on your suggestions. Right after opening this thread, I happened to read the nice primer on Christmas Beatings, and found your suggestions related. So I’ll get back to that too.

The obvious:
Wasteland: I didn’t put it in my first list because I like to testrun the bare concept first. But of course, wasteland is a must, probably as a 3-of because of the number of green sources. Does anybody have the exact numbers of probability (of color screw)?

ESG: I had been thinking of this in advance, but it really is no replacement for a stable mana source like land. I’m not actually fast, I need mana over turns. That’s also the reason why wild growth is better. And growth has some synergy too.

Loam: an easy no for me. Loam and ground seal don’t go together, as seal is actually a good foil for it. Ground seal fits better in the deck’s idea.

The other approach:
You mentioned beaters. Now, ESG is no beater and neither are swarm and enchantress. That leaves Tarmogoyf and possibly rancor. When you said it would make enchantress dangerous, did you think of Yavimaya enchantress? Because I can’t imagine scaring my opponent with 2/1 flyers. But this stuff is inconsequential because Tarmogoyf is the more efficient beater anyway.

Yes, I had thought about goyf. The thing is I don’t think this is the deck for him. First, this deck doesn’t feed him very much. And second, I’m trying to win with a combo instead of beating over several turns. The deck runs lots of disruption, so it will probably lose to dedicated creature decks. So in the time this deck buys, it has to well, win. You need either more threats or a combo.

So I feel that if you want to go the beatdown route, it’s a just step to take to go to Christmas beatings. That way, you’ll be dedicated to disrupting the whole game, which gives you the window to beat down. Both approaches have their pros and cons. What I like about this monogreen deck is that it may dodge some common anti-strategies, so it hopefully finds a niche -  just perfect for the occasional play.

Lastly, two prime suggestions:
Chalice: Good call, I’d forgotten about running this alongside too. I tested with 3 of these over the totems and the domain because those are indeed the most doubtful choices (although I will certainly keep totem with the 75 cards). Yes, it sometimes filled the holes between rod and maze. Still, I’m not sold. Basically you want to drop it at 0 or you’ll hurt yourself. This means even more dead cards in the topdeck mode. Or on the play, even. I’m wondering if it isn’t an overcommitment to the best decktype (bluebased combo-control)? And if I’m doing this, is this drifting to Beatings again?

Seal of Primordium: haven’t gotten around to test it yet. I need to play more games before I can tell whether Seeds makes the difference I hope it does, otherwise Seal as an enchantment is just better.

[the boogie man]

The reason that I suggested 3 chalice was to avoid topdecking multiples. usually, you will have only 1 around at any given time. that way, your threats/disruption are diverse.

And about enchantress, I didn't read the shroud part.

You say you run a lot of disruption, but the rods and maze are about all of the relevant disruption there. What are you protecting with swarm?  a 5-mana 2-card combo that takes a turn to win? That seems like a little bit of a waste. elephant grass is good against ichorid. and maybe fish until you run out of mana. That is why I suggested goyf. I didn't suggest him because meandeck said he was good, I suggested him because if you run green, you should run goyf. Even tezz is thinking about running goyf. It is like how all those control decks run tinker colossus. They aren't an aggro deck, tinker-lossus is just way too efficient to leave out.

Plus, what about games where there is no earthcraft, and you are just sitting there creating 1/1's. Your draw engine doesn't start until you get an enchantress out, and it is slow at that. tarmogoyf gives the opponent 3-4 turns to find an answer to him, or lose. Imagine instead of the goyf, there is elephant grass. Plus, you don't have to pump the goyf to make him good, he just will be. It counts the opponents cards as well.

And on to chalice. Yes, It is really good against blue-black control combo. But it is also good against faster combo, regular control, shops, and it will prevent oath from going mox orchard you lose. It also will randomly screw whoever is across the table over, turning their broken starts into losses. Just because christmas beating runs chalice means nothing. Stax run chalice, and you deck is nothing like a stax deck.

Sure, seal of primordium won't kill every artifact on the table, but it will preemptively stop a lot of pretty bad ones. time vault is really hard to activate from the yard. Oath going to kill you next turn? destroy it. even if it prevents you from dying to a juggernaut it is worth the investment.

[wiley]

Here is the info I have gathered on Enchantress : http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16255138#post16255138

It seems like you are trying to buid a more Squirrel Craft -ish deck.  Here is the list I used to run in casual vintage.  It was really good, and pretty fast if unmolested by counters/discard.

LANDS (12): 
12 Forest 
 
CREATURES (12): 
4 Argothian Enchantress 
4 Verduran Enchantress 
4 Elvish Spirit Guide 
 
OTHER SPELLS (36): 
4 Earthcraft 
4 Squirrel Nest 
2 Altar Of Dementia 
4 Enchantress's Presence 
4 Eladamri's Vineyard 
4 Exploration 
4 Gaea's Touch 
4 Wild Growth 
4 Fertile Ground 
2 Whip Silk

[Smmenen]

Needs alot more Choke.   

[overseer1234]

Needs a lot more Choke.   

What he said.

I like the idea a lot (been trying do make something mono green but I'm taking it more the X-mas beatings way: filling the red slot's up with green stuf obviously), so keep up posting result's.

Also Eyes of the Wisent seems to be worth a look since it punishes you opponent for playing recall, FoW, Drain, Thirst,... in your turn (giving you a 4/4 beatstick) or maybe hidden gibbon's is better... Just throwing in some idea's , goyf's propably better but who knows...

Another blue hating/annoying enchantment could be city of solitude, but maybe swarm is better...

Annyway, I think you really need 4 ESG, being able to drop a T1 null rod is just to good to pass up...

Obviously white give you a lot of possibillity's going from auto of silence & sterling grove, to serra's sanctum and replennish. But I'd try all the possibility's of mono green before you go and splash white...


I hope these random idea's help at least 'some' bit.

Greetzzz,
Robin.

[hive dweller]

Thanks for all the reactions guys! This deck may have some potential then. About all the good suggestions:

@wiley: thanks for the link, those reads were a ‘Blast from the Past’. Indeed the deck is more Squirrelcraft than Enchantress, but I think that’s an edge.

About your list: of course it can do stupid things if allowed to setup for two or three turns, but that is very optimistic. Your mana base in particular is so light. I did like those ESG for powering out the 3cc spells. May have to try that too, as extra’s instead of land.

@boogie man: we agree that goyf is an amazing card. And running it as a secondary gameplan would require opponent’s spending resources, thus reinforcing the primary winning strategy.

The question I was asking was this: since my first question in deckbuilding is ‘How to win?’, if the answer (in green, otherwise you select the more broken colors) is Tarmogoyf, than I wonder next what the best shell would be. Then one could go the beatz route. I have no problem with running goyf here too however. I just try to keep an open mind.

But instead I will try to make a 2-card combo work. It may not be the most efficient out there, but if the upside of that trade is dodging hate (the mana base is solid, for example) and utilizing underused hate cards, it is worth a try.

Finally, swarm seems a must to me. Not just to protect the combo, but any annoyance you wish to throw out.

@Smmenen/overseer: brave call on MD-ing Chokes. I’ll try it, but to be fair, against what % of decks will it be dead? So the question becomes: what is a representative gauntlet to run this decklist in?

Win/10
4 earthcraft
3 squirrel nest
3 tarmogoyf (will imagine goyf<>grass)

Draw/7
4 argothian enchantress
3 ground seal (see first post)

Disruption/20
3 null rod
3 chalice
3 root maze
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
3 choke (this is lots more, right?)
4 xantid swarm

Mana/23
4 ESG
4 wild growth
15 forest

It will take quite some time to really come to results, but in the meantime keep up the good ideas!

[hive dweller]

Today we decided to test against at least the following decks:

Goblins (i.e. straight aggro), Elves combo, GWU fish, UR landstill, Parfait, Hellkite Oath, MUD Stax, TPS, and a Tezzeret build. We chose some of the toughest opposition the deck may face, but if some deck has been forgotten, please, do point out.

Time is limited, but the goal is to get at least two dozen games in per testdrive, no sideboards yet. We’ll get there eventually.

The first numbers concern GWU fish. It’s a nightmare, 25-75 in their favor. They ran Meddling mage, Hierarch, Predator and Goyf, and plow. This matchup was totally warped by the mage. When it hit, it was easy for predators etc. to mop up. Hierarch was quite helpful, otherwise they’re slow to stop me. But without mage, swarm/maze push fish around. So all in all, since mage isn’t played that much, this may actually be a sign of encouragement. That’ll be much needed when going in against that 4 aura of silence deck…

[zeus-online]

What about straight combo? like nauseaum, belcher or long?

/Zeus

[hive dweller]

@Zeus: I was wondering about Ad nauseam, I will include that instead of Elves because Elves is no interesting match as it doesn’t care about my disruption (only about the totem in the board).

A few thoughts about this deck in general: why this deck? I’m seeing it as a place for several underplayed green hate cards, so in general it is a hate deck and nothing else. The kill just happen to entail enchantments for synergy reasons.

The problem with the deck so far is that the hate isn’t very focused, and the window of opportunity gained is too small to be taken advantage of in time. I will try to see if the deck is strategically flawed:

- Ground seal, grass, swarm and perhaps a laid down seal of p. are strategic counters, consequently (best case) allowing you to do something on unopposed terrain. I am reminded of a line from the ‘Art of War’: “for successful attack, attack where there is no defence”.

- Stuff like choke, maze and rod attack the mana base and give a tempo advantage, for a while, because we’re always fighting for mana development.

I respect Xmas beatings for focusing so much on attacking the mana base, it can overpower defence. But it has to battle the entire game for this. Now, unless you play coinflip combo, there’s always such a battleground. Fighting over mana is a must when spells have vintage powerlevel, so in my green deck I can’t go without the above cards like maze.

During the time bought with the mana denial (if that is not your strategy), it’s time to set up a strategic threat. A beater is always a beater, but only a good one if it forces the fight to center in the combat phase, and you have made sure you’re stronger there.
The thing with the ‘strategically disruptive’ green cards is, in my opinion (and I concede there are much better players or theorists out there), that they are defensive in nature, they discourage battles on certain ground (ground seal for graveyards, grass for combat, etc.). But you can’t win without getting your hands dirty. Just make sure you strike where there is inadequate defence. A thousand squirrels is such a strike. Two gaea’s blessings can be as well. But it has to work together with the mandatory resource war, it has limited time to be executed.

That’s why squirrelcraft could work as a finisher; it requires a two-turn window, which might just be expectable. But the two-card combo gives it inconsistency issues, and with so much space devoted to temporary enablers, there is little room to improve your odds.

Now, rod, maze, seals, grass, swarm and choke (and possibly totem) are efficient at their job. So if there’s no great way to fill up 7-8 slots to win, then this deck IS strategically flawed. But if the win is ok, then let’s figure out what kind of battles must be prohibited and optimize the strategic disruption. (At present I have enough faith in it to continue my efforts, obviously)

This could be done in many colors. So why restrict ourselves to green at present? Well, it has some unique effects, and it just has to be TRIED. Anyone who has played chess long enough to know mayor openings to a bore can sympathise.

[the boogie man]

have you looked at sylvan library? It isn't card advantage usually, but it is like brainstorming every turn.

[hive dweller]

Funny that you mention it, today I picked up the deck again and noticed it draws too inconsistently to be good. Library would fix this, so we’re thinking alike boogie. It has some nice synergy with words of wilding too, think I’ll put that back in. This at the expense of the beatdown plan B (or just pure beatdown, no combo) which has been failing, lacking support: the reason for this can be found in my last post.

I have also made a 180 on the seals of primordium. They are very essential.  I will post a revised list along with some results after I get some testing done, starting hopefully tomorrow.

[Nydaeli]

I have no idea how many Wild Growths you need, but check out Utopia Sprawl if it's more than four.

[Roat17]

Personally...when I made an enchantment deck for fun, I splashed white because white has the most BADASS enchantments bar none.  Moat, Serenity, Seal (green as well now), Opalessence, Solitary Confinement, just to name a few.  This requeires a heavier commitment to white then green however, but it also allows you to play Chants and Replenish (which is absolutely unholy).  Replenish is a must counter easily.  I used opalessence as a win condition, since as soon as it is cast your opponent has usually 1 more turn to answer (it usually will come down turn 5-6 and you will have 4 enchantments or so on the board with an average CC of 2-3).  It gives you swords as well!  Unfortunately it takes away from the win condition you invisioned this deck having.  If you want to stick to this game plan, then easily the colour you need to splash is black.  Tutors, Duress, Extirpate.  In a combo deck I see Ext as great disruption getting rid of forces, drains, or opposing duress effects.  Those are really the only colours I would consider splashing unless you want to rock red for Gamble, but why bother when black is better for what you might want?

[the boogie man]

I don't really like the words, because they take your draws away. I'd much rather lay a threat than play something I have to put further investment into, unless it wins.

White, imo, is an excellent color to add, but not for any of the suggestions there. For an enchantress deck, the strongest draw engine I can think of is tax/rack. with enchantress, even dead ones can become cantrips.

actually, opalescence seems pretty good, tax, rootmaze, seals, and choke are all creatures, and if you get multiple opals into play, they get animated as well.

[Darkenslight]

What about, as it were, going rogue GWb for Karmic Night combo (Karma + Blanket of Night/Urborg)?  Because killing with KArma in Vintage is just too hilarious. 

[the boogie man]

if you play enough enchantments that sacrifice themselves, femeref enchantress would work, and she can attack.  sterling grove? or a win condition that eats enchantments? Since there is no blue, gaddock teeg works too.

[hive dweller]

If all the suggestions are leading toward splashing another color (probably white), then it’s time wrap up the monogreen idea.

First, what would actually be the reason to play it this way? The stable manabase and the ability to make root maze more one-sided. But also to make the deck faster than a polychromatic version, which tends to be more controllish. Finally, an old school style enchantress deck would get rolled by combo.

Does MG accomplish what it tried for? More No than yes. It certainly is more disruptive, with rod+chalice+maze+seal. But even the option of the maindecked chokes is not enough to get combative with bluebased combo. Basically, Tinker kills this deck. So chokes were not as hot as they promised, and too slow (or maybe I was just unlucky). On the other hand, other combo is not so scary; chalice for 1 is quite possible and very one-sided.

The problem is, if the standard disruption cards give this deck a chance, it has no relative advantage by itself. Swarm and grass are ok, but only the engine might justify the deck (over other disrupting strategies). Sylvan library helps a lot, I can’t believe I forgot about that. Then maybe I got carried away by the thought of multiple bears per turn, but I will have to test a little more. If the effect is too weak, then I’m out of MG ideas.

[the boogie man]

I think that it might just be the win condition that is holding you back. There has to be some way to use argothian enchantress to some better effect.

Also, I just thought about some things. What about hidden gibbons, hidden guerillas, and eyes of the wisent? even hidden herd would work, as that would activate very quickly. Then, your win condition would still draw cards. I would still play with 4 tarm, so you don't get wrecked by ray of revelation and such. And tarm would force them to activate your enchantments.

[Harlequin]

Hoofprints of the Stag is a great win-condition.  It synergieses well with Sylvan Library (as library is worded), and it combos well with your enchantress triggers.  It also compliments Moat.  It's really the new Sacred Mesa. 

[the boogie man]

Hoofprints actually looks really good. Mono green is resilient, but it seems that the win conditions are a little on the weak side (outside of goyf), and the disruption is as well. For an enchantress deck, I think 2 colors would be a better bet. Green is getting better, but I don't think it has the playable card base that something like blue or black does.

With that said, Other than white, what are some cards that are splash-worthy in this deck? mostly red and black suggestions I mean, Because There seems to be little point in playing blue, as that would drastically change the mechanics of the deck I feel.

If I was to play wg, this would be an approximation of my list:

2-3 bazaar
4 windswept heath
4 savanah
4 strips
3-4 basics

4 esg
2 mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus
1 petal


3 root maze
3 chalice
3 null rod
2 swords to plow
2 seal of primordium
2 lftl

4 sylvan library
1 crop rotation
1 enlightened tutor
0-2 living wish (bazaar, goyf, teeg, sex monkey)

4 argothian enchantress
3-4 hoofprints of the stag
3 hidden gibbons

or something to that effect. Side, surprise goyf and teeg can transform this deck into a much more aggressive build while still allowing for options with wish.

bazaar is my choice for a secondary draw engine, because it clears for sylvan library, can be wished, and is free. I definately would not say the deck is reliant on it at all. I also picked it because it does not interfere with rod, which tax-rack does. Also, tax-rack doesn't seem as good in  a deck that uses fetches. Perhaps I don't need them, though, or maybe even the wastes, and tax could be used with bazaar instead.

auratog also has the ability to end a game really quick if left unchecked, a possibility for sb or wish?

[hive dweller]

Very interesting suggestions, people. You guys seem to know much better where to take the deck. Could very well have its own thread.

I second the remarks on the mg version: the win is lacking, and there is a hole in the disruption. I think white is the mandatory splash. I like the idea of Stag, but I wouldn’t dismiss green Words immediately because this card actually improved my testing results. Yes, it eats draws, but otoh spreading your threats can be an advantage.

The reason for me to at least try it alongside is that I feel the threat density of your list, boogie, is a little low. That was also a problem in the mg deck.

Some first thoughts: could you elaborate in the loams? I would play more StP over these (tied #1 reason to splash).

Bazaar clearly has some synergies. But apart from it being expensive, do you need a second engine more than you need a way to beat counters, like swarms?

You may be right, but I would start testing, coming from the MG perspective, by making relatively few changes. Living wish seems a bit exotic in enchantress.

Finally, I’d have to play the deck unpowered, so I’d put in 4 utopia sprawls instead. A good thing, because the new ench. count without it is quite low for enchantress.

[the boogie man]

THe living wishes are totally cuttable, I'd add another seal and another stp in their spot if you don't want to run them. before those addition, there are 16 enchantments. 20 with sprawl, and another 1 from cutting the wishes.

I think the problem in the mono green deck is lacking because it is dependent on other parts. Squirrel nest + earthcraft is a five-mana combo that still takes a turn to win.

The win condition is kind of slow, but not really once you get going. with one sylvan library out, you are 3/4 of the way toward a 3 mana 4/4 flyer. One enchantress activation is the rest of it. The words would kill your card advantage severely, and hoofprints doesn't affect you negatively at all. With multiple libraries, you have the ability to create a lot of flying guys. And everybody (pretty much) plays instants, and its a 4/4.

The win condition is still slow, but it does not require another piece to do its job. Look at the deck, though. Slow seems to be the name of the game. root maze, rod, and chalice are all there to gum up the game. I put lftl in because mana denial seems to be pretty apparent in the deck, with wastes, rod and the other denial. It also goes well with bazaar.

I chose bazaar because everything in the deck costs 2 or under, so you won't need a whole lot of mana down, and bazaar is good with lftl.

[hive dweller]

Have you already played your bazaar version in serious games? I’d hate to test strictly inferior cards to it if you know more than I. That said, below is the new list I would try.

Some remarks: without Bazaar (because I still like Swarms), I’m less Stag-oriented. I stand by a pair of Words at the moment, as diversifying and deciding if/how many tokens to get is good. Also, Stag still is a hefty 3 mana to activate, and in the secondary color.

In the mana base, I propose Temple garden over fetch because of root maze, and just two because I want to maximize the number of basics (resilience, safer with Sprawl).


Win 8:
3 gibbons
2 words of wilding
3 hoofprints

Mana 22:
8 forest
2 temple garden
4 savannah
4 utopia sprawl
4 elvish spirit guide

Engine 9:
4 argothian enchantress
4 sylvan library
1 enlightened tutor

Disruption 21:
1 strip mine
3 wasteland
3 chalice of the void
3 null rod
3 root maze 
3 plow
3 xantid swarm
2 seal of primordium

[the boogie man]

wouldn't words be bad synergy with hoofprints?

Also, I can't usually get any real-game testing done, its usually jusst goldfishing and whatnot.