Optimizing Tezzeret

[CHaPuZaS]

I feel that the third color is very important, the thing is...

A) two colours provides an stronger mana base against fish and shops
B) the third color provides solutions against fish and shops decks AND also REB for control mirrors and chewer for pairings like painters and ichorid.

The second key is basic just because you make the deck moré explosive, also is part of the draw engine with Top.

If the thread continue , and I can find a computer I, post two lists i'm working in. I'll test some list during the first two weeks of august and I'll publish an article... I'll also post lists and results of the testing as I really want people out of Spain testing/playing/top8ing the deck...

Thanks for the interest!

[covetousrat]

I am thinking of adding Ingot chewers and more FIre/Ice to the main. This deck is build to combat Stax and Fish. Fire takes down Welders, Bobs, Tezzerat, etc. Heres the deck list. Im trying to add the 4th Ingot and Fire but cant seem to find anything to remove. Ingot chewer is really impressive against Stax and can be summon as a 3/3.

3 Flooded strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black lotus
5 Moxes
1 Mana crypt
1 Mana vault
1 sol ring

1 Inkwell leviathan
3 Ingot Chewer

1 Tezzerat

1 Mystical tutor
1 time walk
1 Tinker
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for knowledge
1 Fact or fiction
1 Hurkyls recal
1 Brainstorm
1 Senseis divining top
1 Merchant scrol
3 Fire/ice
1 voltaic key
1 Time vault
1 Ancestral recall
4 Fow
4 Mana drainl

1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Yawgmoths wil
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

Sideboard

1 Ingot chewer
2 PIthing Needle
4 Enery Flux
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyling OTV
1 Tormods crypt

Just played some games on MWS againts Stax. Iv realise game 1 is long and brutal. It ended with Ingot Chewer taking down the game. After sideboard, Energy Flux is the key and it slows down the game for both players. Iv lost a game with 4 Lands Energy flux brainstorm 2 random, no FOW hand and fold to a turn 1 Trinisphere. Well all the games are very close.

[hugo_87]

I am currently playing this list, and I am very happy with it. Sylvan library is really amazing, and snares even more in the current metagame:



    3  Flooded Strand
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Underground Sea
    4  Island
    2  Polluted Delta
    2  Tropical Island


    1  Inkwell Leviathan


    1  Tinker
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Misdirection
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Vault
    1  Voltaic Key
    1  Tezzeret the Seeker
    1  Rebuild
    1  Repeal
    1  Regrowth
    3  Spell Snare
    1  Skeletal Scrying
    1  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Sylvan Library
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Ponder


SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Thoughtseize
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3  Tarmogoyf
SB: 2  Energy Flux


We really don't need a "draw engine" properly said, running one of each restricted bomb plus some tech like SdT or sylvan library provides also a powerful draw engine, and the best of all is that it isn't conditional, like intuition+AK or thoughtcast.
I think selective tools like top or sylvan library are key in the one-brainstorm/one-thirst-era, because now it's very hard to filter useless cards. By this I mean especially mana sources in the mid/llate game, cards that we tend to topdeck and hold in hand very frequently since TFK is out.

[hugo_87]

Double posted accidentally, sorry.

[covetousrat]

Ok Energy flux is dumb.. Seriously.. It hurts me as bad as them.. Heres my new sideboard

1 Volcanic Island
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Pyroclasm
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 REB
3 Rack n Ruin

[hugo_87]

Obviously when facing stax you should side out the vault combo...Indeed seems logical if you're running tarmogoyf. I tested trygon predator in the flux slots and it was simply too sloooow, and half the times died against a triskelion. And if the opponent resolves a welder, its completely useless. Energy flux is autowin as long as it resolves, and it is the best solution against stax if you're not running red, of course.
It simply can't hurt you as bad as them if you're running just 8 (mana) artifacts post board, and they are running a deck full of them...

[zeus-online]

Obviously when facing stax you should side out the vault combo...Indeed seems logical if you're running tarmogoyf. I tested trygon predator in the flux slots and it was simply too sloooow, and half the times died against a triskelion. And if the opponent resolves a welder, its completely useless. Energy flux is autowin as long as it resolves, and it is the best solution against stax if you're not running red, of course.
It simply can't hurt you as bad as them if you're running just 8 (mana) artifacts post board, and they are running a deck full of them...

What?, i'd probably never SB the combo out.
The way i play the match-up is try to avoid anything too nasty hitting the board and then at some point play hurkyl's or rebuild, then win before giving them a turn.
Exactly the same way as MD Gifts did it.

Thus, the only cards i would SB in is hurkyl's and maybe something to stop welders (Like P. Needle)

Energy flux is far from an auto-win, i'd actually avoid flux all together and rely on mass-bounce, rack and ruin, oxidize, ingot chewer or something similar instead (Ancient grudge probably being the best...but a little hard on the mana).

The main reason for using blue anti-stax cards is that you should never WANT to fetch out anything but islands.

And you absolutely need the combo, winning with tinker/Goyf just gives them too much time to establish or re-establish the lock.

[kkoie]

Energy flux is far from an auto-win, i'd actually avoid flux all together and rely on mass-bounce, rack and ruin, oxidize, ingot chewer or something similar instead (Ancient grudge probably being the best...but a little hard on the mana).

I would have to heartily agree with this comment.  I recall using energy flux against MUD and flux slowed them down some, but not enough to prevent them from developing a dominating board position and kill me off before I could stop them.  Since then I've stopped using it.  

[hugo_87]

I think you have a wrong perspective when facing stax with control decks. What you say is an effective play if we were playing storm combo, but playing control decks using only massive bounce spells helps, but does not win. Eot hurkyl's, ok. In your turn you will untap, draw and pass the turn 80% of the time, and the other 20% you will combo out. And if you pass the turn, they will just replay their entire hand again. Maybe you will counter one or two threats, ok, but the rest?
Against stax, the best plan is aggro mode. Why do decks like goblins or RG have a very favorable matchup against workshops? Because of their quick clock. A quick and cheap clock is the best solution against any kind of lock. If you drop a 4/5 goyf onto the table, they simply have to find an answer to a 5 turn clock, or they are out, even with their crucible/strip mine lock, or with their 4 spheres, or whatever they dropped onto the table. Even a smokestack can be useless if it does not hit the table soon. And the difference between RG and our deck is that we run counters to avoid their few responses to our beaters.

Exactly the same way as MD Gifts did it.

I think any tezzeret build is far away from MD gifts deck in almost every aspect. MD gifts run almost every card as a 4x of, and that way its playlines were easy to follow and almost the same. It resolved eot a hurkyl's, then a gifts and just won. We run almost every card as a singleton (except for countermagic) and that way we have tons of different ways to develop our play. And we not run any single card that just "wins" the game, we need at least a combination of two, which is much harder to assemble. Don not forget, MD gifts was a sort of storm combo deck. We do not run tendrils of agony to win the game, so we can't focus the matchup the same way.

Apart from all this, I can't see why energy flux isn't an autowin. It clears their board completely. And we lose 1 or maybe 2 moxen, ok, what a problem... I always win the match it hits the table, seriously. Its only problem is the cmc 3 it has, that makes it sometimes hard to resolve through several spheres, but being blue and running at least 3 basics I think there isn't a better solution without running red, anyway never more than 2 copies, for sure. Trygon predator was simply crap, and engineered explosives is a good sideboard card in general, but I wanted to end the game better than just hit their spheres

[hugo_87]

Double posted again -.-'

[zeus-online]

I think you have a wrong perspective when facing stax with control decks. What you say is an effective play if we were playing storm combo, but playing control decks using only massive bounce spells helps, but does not win. Eot hurkyl's, ok. In your turn you will untap, draw and pass the turn 80% of the time, and the other 20% you will combo out. And if you pass the turn, they will just replay their entire hand again. Maybe you will counter one or two threats, ok, but the rest?
Against stax, the best plan is aggro mode. Why do decks like goblins or RG have a very favorable matchup against workshops? Because of their quick clock. A quick and cheap clock is the best solution against any kind of lock. If you drop a 4/5 goyf onto the table, they simply have to find an answer to a 5 turn clock, or they are out, even with their crucible/strip mine lock, or with their 4 spheres, or whatever they dropped onto the table. Even a smokestack can be useless if it does not hit the table soon. And the difference between RG and our deck is that we run counters to avoid their few responses to our beaters.

Exactly the same way as MD Gifts did it.

I think any tezzeret build is far away from MD gifts deck in almost every aspect. MD gifts run almost every card as a 4x of, and that way its playlines were easy to follow and almost the same. It resolved eot a hurkyl's, then a gifts and just won. We run almost every card as a singleton (except for countermagic) and that way we have tons of different ways to develop our play. And we not run any single card that just "wins" the game, we need at least a combination of two, which is much harder to assemble. Don not forget, MD gifts was a sort of storm combo deck. We do not run tendrils of agony to win the game, so we can't focus the matchup the same way.

Apart from all this, I can't see why energy flux isn't an autowin. It clears their board completely. And we lose 1 or maybe 2 moxen, ok, what a problem... I always win the match it hits the table, seriously. Its only problem is the cmc 3 it has, that makes it sometimes hard to resolve through several spheres, but being blue and running at least 3 basics I think there isn't a better solution without running red, anyway never more than 2 copies, for sure. Trygon predator was simply crap, and engineered explosives is a good sideboard card in general, but I wanted to end the game better than just hit their spheres

No, you don't just pass the turn....You develop your board with lands, moxen etc....and then when you're ready to win, you bounce, untap and win.

You don't just bounce when you draw the recall/rebuild that'd be a waste. You have to realize that a deck like Tez can switch from control to combo in an instant. That is the strength of vintage drain combo/control decks. Only difference from gifts in this particular scenario is that we win with vault/key or vault/Tez not with will+Tendrils.
There are so many ways to get both pieces that it would be hard for me to name all of them, bottom line - It's easy to get vault/key.
This method for beating shops has been proven time and again.

Energy flux dosn't just "completely" wipe their board, it depends on their mana etc. If they can pay for say 2 artifacts, that may be enough.
- Worst case scenario, they're playing with metalworker which completely negates energy flux. Another thing is that welder somewhat circumvents flux, they can respond to the upkeep cost and weld the artifact out and get a new one which is "upkeep free" for the turn.

The only deck where i think E. Flux was close to an "auto-win" against shops was in mono blue featuring 3+ back to basics.

Your way of beating stax resembles the way keeper and Hulk smash handled workshop decks.

Aggro decks beat stax by pumping out waves of creatures (Makes smokestack and tanglewire much, much worse), you can't get the same effect by dropping 1 tarmogoyf.

[MirariKnight]

Since Long Island is infested with Stax I have tested the matchup so many times.
In my opinion, Energy Flux sucks balls. It kill your stuff too, which you need since moxes avoid strip lock, and it will basically stall you both till they kill it with REB. The best card is Ancient Grudge or if your mana base can't handle it shattering spree/ingot chewer.
Serenity is also pretty fun, just be careful not to drop all your perms first (which you should be doing anyway).
Also never side out the vault combo. Vault itself is pretty useful against Stax (skipping turns is pretty nice, to the point where I'll side out Time Walk).

[marriedwithchildren]

Edited due to drunkeness!

[tehmajickguy]

Vault itself is pretty useful against Stax (skipping turns is pretty nice, to the point where I'll side out Time Walk).

   I never thought about skipping my turn to untap my Vault while they had a tangle wire out.  I guess I don't play against enough Stax.

NO TEZ in the top 8 Vintage Championship at GenCon!  Has he lost his edge because of the amount of Bob's and Fish running around being counter productive with Tez?  I've been bouncing around splashing different colors and the UBR version seems to be pretty fun but I seem to always get wasted by BUG fish.

Wtf? Dude, the first place deck was a Tez deck that ran tez in it.

[Neonico]

I totally agree with Hugo about the stax matchup : in a Ubg build, i would definatyl side out the Combo to kill with tinker, and goyfs (and possible Trygon predator)
It's even more important in MUD aggro matchup, which add the clock to the prison elements that will slow you down alot.