Ichorid is in the format, why not flash?

[sundering jerk]

Here are some points for discussion about flash and the upcoming B & R list:

1. Now that scroll, ponder, and Bstorm are gone the card should be reevaluated. With these diggers out it will force people to come up with new lists that involve a lil more finesse.

2. Without Bstorm to put back essential combo pieces and to hide the 2 card win from the swarm of duress effects running around I think the deck might be more fair.

3. People say that flash wasn't fun to play against, but we still have ichorid! I mean at least against flash you have a chance to win the first game and the chance to interact with the other player rather that watch someone tap a land their first turn and win turn two with your hand full of counters/duresses.     

3.1. Everyone sideboards 4-8 slots against Ichorid anyway so it's not like it will be anywhere near as good in comparison since CHALICE/duress/thought seize/force/drain/stifle/reb/spellsnare hurts the deck as well. I've heard it argued that Ichorid's existence alone has made decks like Gorger no longer viable by comparison due to the higher level of consistency in ichorid, and the amount of SB hate people pack in fear.

3.2. Perhaps the introduction of this deck will force Ich players in some meta to include more grave hate makeing them less potent and the Ich mirror more interesting.

4. Decks like TPS are just as if not much more(after the restrictions) explosive. The only difference is flash is easier to disrupt because of its narrow path to victory. 

5.Painter/Grindstone is a two card colorless combo that isn't susceptible to graveyard hate and that doesn't put up big numbers in T8.

6. Even when Flash was a deck their was never a month where the deck took more than a quarter of the T8 anyway. And much like Ichorid it is to inconsistent to get the winning spot consistently. 


Their is one argument I can think of to not unrestrict flash after Bstorm, Scroll, and ponder have got the hammer, the format seems to be slowing down a lil and becoming less explosive(except for TPS and Ich) and that's a good thing. Maybe the answer is to slow down the game more. Maybe that would be more interactive and fun.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/15109_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Dear_Santa_Rosewater.html

7 of 10 achieved.   3 to go. 

Hey Smmenen,

Can you please use your substantial influence to get flash back? Also thanks for inspiring me to give this article a shot, maybe a high up will consider the points made in this thread.

[Rehallek]

Those are some interesting points you brought up and I think in some ways I'm gonna have to agree with you. On the other hand I do like the format slowing down too. So it is tough to say. I do not think flash would be any worse than ichorid though because of the recent restrictions like you said though. Well put.

[The Atog Lord]

The difference between Flash and Ichorid, to me, is this. If you really want to beat Ichorid, and dedicate enough sideboard spaces to beating it, you usually will. But if you really want to beat Flash, and dedicate 15 sideboard spaces to it, you'll still lose to it a fair amount. Ichorid is made fair by how vulnerable it is to opposing hate. With Force and Pact, Flash is much better against hate, making a much less fair deck.

[vassago]

I dont know man. I think Flash would be awesome right now if it were unrestricted.  The deck would be slower but i think the tempo loss due to the lack of bstorm and ponder would be made up by duress effects and possibly mana denial routes. Hell i think a decent amount of gifts packages could be made to fit the deck. I also think body snatcher does become even more relevant to the deck it it were to be played in our current environment.  THere is a distinct possibility that the deck may be too good even with the restrictions, but I dont know.  If wizards are in fact trying to slow the format down a tad, I think they might not unrestrict flash due to the capacity to "oops I win," which is why the deck was obnoxious when it was played. Another thing that makesthis archetype just stupid is the counter magic it plays. Let us assume that flash is in fact not restricted, and let us think about and discuss hypothetical lists. Here is one I propose. Do you think something like this would viable? Would this be good? If something like this were in our metagame, would it be format defining and would it cause a reaction the DCI?  I think the answers to these questions would present a greater understanding of why, or why not, this strategy is not available to be played in the manner in which we are considering. Anyway, here is the list Treyfour and I just came up with:

4 flash
4 FOW
4 pact of negation
1 mystical tutor
1 ponder
1 b storm
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoths will
1 imperial seal
2 duress
2 thoughtseize
1 ancestral recalll
1 timewalk
1 reveillark
1 mogg fantastic
1 body double
1 body snatcher
1 carrion feeder
4 protean hulk
4 summoner's pact
1 mox diamond
5 real moxen
black lotus
lotus petal
4 underground sea
2 island
1 swamp
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

Because this is purely hypothetical, I did not present a side board.  Now something that would be good to discuss is what sideboard options other decks would be using besides Leylines.  Would decks packing 7-8 duress effects rape this deck now?  There is alot of thought to be into this and I would like to hear what you have to say in response.

[nataz]

gifts piles seem bad since you can't will + flash.

The reason why flash is better then painter is the cc. Flash combo means you only have to cast 1 card, the second card simply hangs out in  your hand. And if you look at painter grindstone it takes 6 mana to pull off, as opposed to just two.

It's better then dragon since it does not need a third card in hand/on the board to go off, and its better then most storm decks since you don't need to chain 10 spells though chalice, FOW, spheres etc.

I mean, i'd love flash back in the format, but I think i'm in the minority

Figure you lose 3 brainstorm, ponder, and scroll for a total of 9 search/filter cards. Replace with some combo of top, slight of hand, imp seal, impulse, lim dul's vault, extra disruption, etc, and I think the deck still is really good. Oh man, maybe ideas unbound would finally have a home.

[sundering jerk]

The difference between Flash and Ichorid, to me, is this. If you really want to beat Ichorid, and dedicate enough sideboard spaces to beating it, you usually will. But if you really want to beat Flash, and dedicate 15 sideboard spaces to it, you'll still lose to it a fair amount. Ichorid is made fair by how vulnerable it is to opposing hate. With Force and Pact, Flash is much better against hate, making a much less fair deck.

Yes pact is the most busted card. put with leyline on the board it is just another dead card while searching for a bounce spell without any of the recent restrictions. Also it would be hilarious to watch them pact while you have a trickbind in hand.
Also chalice would be amazing set at 1 or 2 and would be a SB card against TPS and Oath as well, and if you're on the play ... you could possibly bring it in anyway.

I also don't agree with the SB slots make a win. I SBed 12 cards against Ich at my weekly vintage cause Ich always wins and I still lost to it.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

If they unrestricted Flash the deck would probably have to run 4 Sensei's Divining Top because it relied so heavily on Brainstorm before. With GAT lists stretching for playables as far as deck manipulation is concerned (to the point where they are playing the embarassing Sleight of Hand).

[sundering jerk]

The difference between Flash and Ichorid, to me, is this. If you really want to beat Ichorid, and dedicate enough sideboard spaces to beating it, you usually will. But if you really want to beat Flash, and dedicate 15 sideboard spaces to it, you'll still lose to it a fair amount. Ichorid is made fair by how vulnerable it is to opposing hate. With Force and Pact, Flash is much better against hate, making a much less fair deck.

O I forgot to mention, I play every week

a while ago in our match you went turn one sol ring, key, Tvault GG

then 2 weeks ago someone welt mana vault, key, Tvault force back (I'm a noob for not having double force)

in that same tourney some one went dark rit necro force back



Personally I think they should set a new slower standard of no turn one wins. But if they're not going to do that this deck can be fun. More fun then Ich

Just play leyline

I play 4 to 5 round tourneys every week and crap like this happens to me at least three times a month minimum.


My point is WELCOME TO T1 we play busted!!!!    All I'm sayin is don't hate on flash cause it can do it too

[vassago]

gifts piles seem bad since you can't will + flash. 

it does. That didn't occur to me untill after, and I was too lazy to go back and erase it. Sorry, I have fat hands and they don't like exerting too much effort. 

[meadbert]

There is a big difference between Dredge and Flash in terms of speed.  Flash can easily win 30%+ on turn 1.  The better performing Dredge decks are a full turn slower.
This gives combo, combo/control and aggro decks a chance to race.

"Control" decks that lack any kind of graveyard hate pretty much roll to Dredge in game 1, but all it takes is a token Tormod's Crypt, Planar Void or Relic of Progenitus to even up that matchup.

If Dredge drops turn 1 Bazaar then combo decks and even most combo/control decks can go into race mode (or look for Time Twister.)  Shop decks can use or find Wasteland and go aggro.

If your opponent opens with turn 1 Flash, then you just lose unless you have Force or had Leyline.

[Smmenen]

With Brainstorm (and Scroll) restricted, Flash would be very bad.    Brainstorm was crucial in helping assemble the combo, and getting rid of unwanted combo parts like Carrion Feeder, etc.    Now, if you have two creature combo parts in hand, you can't get rid of them -- even with Body Snatcher.   Chapin and I were talking about how we would rather have 3 Brainstorm than 1 Ancestral Recall in Flash.   In fact, I'd rather have 2 Brainstorms than 1 Ancestral Recall in old style flash, if I had to choose.

[swawagon]

I was saying that back when I was playing Flash, Brainstorm is honestly better than Ancestral Recall quite often in that deck. And Brainstorm wasn't a Misdirection liability either.

I think Lat Nams' Legacy or Scroll Rack, which are far worse than Brainstorm, would almost have to be played to get combo pieces out of hand. Without Brainstorm and without Merchant Scroll Flash would probably have to be a shifted to a more control, much weaker deck.

Funny thing is Mogg Fanatic and many other of the same cards share hate with both Ichorid and Flash decks.. Although Tormod's Crypt doesn't hurt that Sliver kill which really shouldn't be ruled out as strictly inferior to the Revielark kill.

[oneofchaos]

I really wouldn't be opposed to unrestricting flash. It lost 3 ponder, 3 brainstorm, 3 merchant scroll.  It would be forced to run more lands than before.  I am getting sick of time vault + key tho.

[policehq]

Since you have 9 slots available, maybe you shouldn't worry about what is in your hand and play the Disciple of the Vault instant kill.

[Implacable]

Tezzeret isn't fantastic against fast combo.  Flash is fast combo.  Flash got neutered by the Brainstorm/Scroll restrictions.  Unrestrict?  I'm iffy.  I played Flash, and I guess my residual feeling against it may be based on how unfair it felt when I won (and when I lost).  But it might be worth a shot, sans the broken blue stuff that got the boot.

[gamegeek2]

I agree with unrestricting Flash completely, especially considering the domination of Drain decks right now.

[arctic79]

I'm willing to bet we will not see Flash again unless someone with a new mindset takes over the management of the B&R list.  More than likely we are going to see Vault nerfed for good, and possibly Bazaar restricted, because if anything the B&R list is reactive and doesn't always seem to balance itself properly.