Ad Nauseam Combo

[Purple Hat]

I didn't see any threads discussing Ad Naus combo.  After playing this deck on Sunday at Waterbury I discovered 2 things: 1) I'm not a good player right now. 2) the deck is extremely strong and fairly resilient, able to win off the topdeck, especially in the later turns.

Here's the list I played which we basically coppied from one of steve's articles with a slight tweak to support green in the board.

Bombs:
4 Ad nauseam
1 Yawgmoth's will

Card advantage/filters:
4 Bob
1 Ancestral
1 brainstorm
1 ponder

Tutors:
1 mystical
1 vamp
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 imperial seal

Protection:
4 duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Chain of Vapor
1 hurkyl's recall

Win:
3 tendrils of agony

Mana
4 dark ritual
3 Cabal ritual
3 Chrome mox
1 mox emerald (should have been a diamond I think)
1 mox sapphire
1 mox jet
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 polluted delta
3 Underground sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 bayou
1 tropical island

SB:
3 Goyf
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Xantid swarm
1 Hurkyl's recall
1 Echoing truth
2 Tormod's crypt
3 Slaughter Pact

What worked:
Ad nauseam is just an amazing card.  resolving ad nauseam should give you a strong enough board position that even if the first tendrils doesn't get you there you'll likely be set for the game.  Against stax I removed all 3 tendrils with consultation in game 2, and was still able to ride my draw 8 to victory through use of the man plan.

Multiple routes to victory.  Because bob smacks for 2 every turn and lets you draw extra cards you can get there pretty easily without casting ad nauseam, or for that matter, yawgmoth's will.  this makes you look like some sort of strange bob tendrils/TPS list and means that opponents are surprised when you drop the ad naus in a later game if they haven't seen one yet.  Misboarding (graveyard hate) is fairly common in this case.

Bob.  Very strong.  this deck is basically built around using bob's ability a lot, so getting a "free" one in every turn is pretty solid.

The sideboard.  Actually the sideboard was good.  the man plan was solid vs stax, even though bringing in Jailers against stax seems a bit odd it drives you up to 10 creatures which lets you use Ad Nauseam as a draw spell and win mid size. (this deck doesn't really do small very well).

Chain of vapor/Hurkyl's: 4 bounce spells main makes you pretty well able to handle resolved perminants and helps quite a bit with freeing up space in the sideboard while still presenting a large quantity of protection against hate.

What didn't:
Me.  this is a tough deck to play, especially coming off a 2 year hiatus and especially after not having played storm for like 5 years.

Mulligans. I seemed to be mulliganing a lot, but then again I had a turn 2 win out of a not overwhelming 5 card hand so...that's not bad.

Sometimes you cast ad nauseam and die.  Happened to me 1 game, I drew a TON of cards.  None of them were tutors or tendrils though so I didn't get there.  then I gave into the fear and tutored up tendrils before casting adnaus just in case....then I didn't get there because I took 2 off the tutor and 4 off the ad naus into tendrils.  That was just aweful play on my part.

Average mana cost of this deck may be too high.  I'm not sure.  I'd like to find additional tutors to use, I might try a 1 of tainted pact instead of one of the tendrils or possibly a 1 of personal tutor.  I'm also considering replacing an ad nauseam with a Timetwister.

Anyway, I think this deck is much stronger than the current sentiment on this board suggests and I'd like to see it discussed/developed further.  Hence the thread.

[Marske]

Well did you miss this one: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36729.0
It's probably better not to necro that thread and start with a new one but there already is a lot of info on the deck.

If you look at the average mana cost problem (which I've stressed alot in the initial thread) you do have a good point in the fact that the build you played maybe has a bit to much high CMC spells and you can easily be killed. I think you are right about the deck being much stronger then people give it credit for, but TPS is a LOT more stable against the matches you face today. Ahh well maybe I'll give ANT another run again.

What I find pretty cool in your list is that you don't run Necro OR twister 2 of the things I got a lot of feedback on about how stupid not running those was, good to see I'm not the only person against those cards in certain ANT builds.... although I have doubts about BOB in the deck, this slows you down a lot compared to the build I talk about in my primer and upps your avarage CMC. Guess I would need to go back to the drawing board after abandoning this deck a few month's ago.

[Stormanimagus]

Well did you miss this one: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36729.0
It's probably better not to necro that thread and start with a new one but there already is a lot of info on the deck.

If you look at the average mana cost problem (which I've stressed alot in the initial thread) you do have a good point in the fact that the build you played maybe has a bit to much high CMC spells and you can easily be killed. I think you are right about the deck being much stronger then people give it credit for, but TPS is a LOT more stable against the matches you face today. Ahh well maybe I'll give ANT another run again.

What I find pretty cool in your list is that you don't run Necro OR twister 2 of the things I got a lot of feedback on about how stupid not running those was, good to see I'm not the only person against those cards in certain ANT builds.... although I have doubts about BOB in the deck, this slows you down a lot compared to the build I talk about in my primer and upps your avarage CMC. Guess I would need to go back to the drawing board after abandoning this deck a few month's ago.

Tinker for Sundering Titan or Inkwell Leviathan out of the board is pretty saucy as well as an out to Tarmo-Fish. Here's the list I might run if I were to bring this to a tournament tomorrow:

Ad Nauseam

Land (11):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
1 Island

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Creatures (4):
4 Dark Confidant

Enchantments (1):
1 Necropotence

Sorceries (13):
3 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ponder
3 Tendrils Of Agony

Instants (20):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chain Of Vapor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall


SB
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Sundering Titan/Inkwell Leviathan?
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Smother
3 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Cabal Therapy

[Purple Hat]

I have read the old threads, but if it's off the front page I generally start a new thread.  Thanks for posting the link though I probably should have included that in the initial post.  I think there should be more attention paid to this deck so I thought I'd throw it up here.

I think bob really does increase the consistency of the deck even though he slows you down a bit.  the extra card every turn can be pretty sick against control, and he lets you play therapy instead of thoughtsieze as those last two discard spells, which is pretty legit since it gives you a free spell when trying to go off.  In addition you can go the bob tendrils route and just beat for a few turns and then fire off a mini tendrils, which isn't a bad plan vs things like remora.

I haven't done too much testing and maybe necro is broken, but it seems to work at cross purposes with the deck since bob and ad naus are eating up your life total, and ad naus and will are the only bombish spells you're playing so you're less likely to draw into a way to get there than tps is.

I don't like TPS without brainstorm.  It seems to stall out on big turns too often for my taste.  This doesn't seem to have that problem as much.  Maybe I'm just a bad TPS player, but without brainstorm I think TPS suffers from having the wrong mix of aggressive and protective spells in hand too often.

[oneofchaos]

I liked playing one intuition maindeck in Ad nauseum.  Between all your four off's you will be able to get a large variety of what you want.  If you get Ad nausuem, i think the math lowered the CMC of the deck by around 30% or so in my build?  Also it makes building threshold with cabal ritual super easy.  I have not tried bobs and I will be testing those as they seem fairly decent for more threats.

[Purple Hat]

1 intuition sounds good.  I've been thinking of a way to add an additional tutor and lower the CMC when going off.  You could actually replace a tendrils with it and intuition for tendrils, tendrils, Yawgmoth's will.

@stormanimagus:  Why tinker/man over goyf?  you're adding a bunch to your total CMC by going tinker/man (11-12 instead of 6 with 3 goyfs) that seems like a bad idea.  Also why smother over slaughter pact?  we talked about this on the way over to the site on saturday and we couldn't come up with any black creatures you'd want to kill, and paying 2B later seems better than paying 1B now, especially since pact doesn't damage you when you flip it.  It also can't be misd'd to Bob.

[3eowulf]

A couple of weeks ago there was a 183 players tournament near Firenze (the "D-Day", there were also some SCG salesmen).

I won the event with this list:

// Lands
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou

// Spells
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Jet
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Pact of Negation

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm

Facing:

Round 1 - Fish UR unspo [2-0]
Round 2 - Goblin Rb unspo [2-0]
Round 3 - Control Slaver URb [1-2]
Round 4 - Tezzeret Ur [2-0]
Round 5 - Mana Ichorid [2-1]
Round 6 - Tyrant Oath [2-1]
Round 7 - Drain Tendrils UBr [2-1]
Round 8 - Mana Ichorid [2-1]
Top8 - TPS [2-1]
Top4 - Ichorid [2-1]
Finale - Fish BUR [2-0]

For those who can read italian, here's the report.

[Purple Hat]

Interesting report.  Especially when run through google translations.  Congrats on the finish.  What are your thoughts on the deck?  It looks like you used necro-->mini tendrils-->necro-->tendrils a lot.  Maybe I've misvalued that card.

[3eowulf]

I shudder at the thought of what the google translation might look like

My initial thoughts were along the lines of the deck being too much inconsistent to play in a competitive event (that is, some busted hands and many more mediocre ones). Eventually I had the chance to test a little more and, as the more I play it, I noticed that it's much better than at first sight. So, before dismissing it, players should REALLY take their time TESTING (and golfishing is NOT testing).

Overall, I felt the deck very solid and found each matchup almost positive, altough I dind't face workshop decks which should be the worst opponents. If I were to play a deck in the immediate future, I would probably bring the exact same list (maybe just adding a Rebuild in the SB).

I used Necropotence 3 times (and that's not a lot in 11 rounds by my standards ) twice in the swiss and once in top8 (that's not covered in the report due to time costraints and memory lapses) and, if I recall correctly, I used a mini Tendrils only the first time (didn't found it straight away the second time, having enought gas in hand for the kill the third one). Still, had I found (or given the chance to succesfully cast) it, I wuold have probably used Necro much more. It's just a bomb since the format slowed down, the deck runs discard and chrome moxes.

Hope this covers your questions

[Purple Hat]

oh, huh, I guess I just assumed some mistranslated word meant the wrong thing then.

I definitely agree that the deck is much stronger than it looks.

with 2 hurkyl's in the board and 1 main you think you'd need rebuild as well?

[3eowulf]

What worries me is the chance a shop player drops chalice@2 and two other lock pieces (2xspheres, sphere and chalice@1). Unfortunately we don't have FoW and we can't always race the lock, and I don't really like not having outs. In the list I posted EE served that purpose, but I'm not sure about it being the best solution (Rebuild while more damaging off Nauseam might be tutorable with some insight).

No questions about Confidant or Pact in place of Thoughtseize?

[Chill79]

I'm playing this kind of version my self:

Lands:12
1*Bayou
1*Flooded Strand
1*Tolarian Academy
1*Island
1*Swamp
3*Underground Sea
4*Polluted delta

Spells:48
1*Black Lotus
1*Ponder
1*Mana Vault
1*Chain of Vapor
1*Repeal
1*Brainstorm
1*Necropotence
1*Ancestral Recall
1*Mox Sapphire
1*Mox Jet
1*Mana Crypt
1*Sol Ring
1*Mox Diamong
1*Lotus Petal
1*Mox Emerald
1*Mystical Tutor
1*Timetwister
1*Mind's Desire
1*Vampiric Tutor
1*Merchant Scroll
1*Yawgmoth's Will
1*Hurkyl's Recall
1*Demonic Tutor
3*Chrome Mox
3*Cabal Ritual
3*Tendril's of Agony
4*Ad Nauseam
4*Pact of Negation
4*Duress
4*Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm

How many times do you guys have gone EoT Ad Nauseam to fetch counter so that could combo off on own turn??

[meadbert]

Has anyone else been testing Drain with Ad Nauseam?  There are some synergies.

1)  Drain has fairly low cc
2)  Both are instants
3)  Drain helps accelerate out Ad Nauseam

The main trouble is that reliably getting to  and  means running either too many lands or an unstable base.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

@meadbert

Well I haven't really tried Drains but having maindeck Confidants is already pushing the deck's playstyle to border near combo-control.
I'm not saying it's strictly bad (having Drains and Confidants main), but I'd rather go TPS and have FoW at that point.
I think one main advantage of this deck over TPS is raw speed; it's arguably faster than Ichorid and on par with Belcher.

And yeah, it might seem moot, but revealing dead cards to AN and losing two points of life in the process frequently decides the game's outcome (I'm talking about Confidants here, it could get even more ugly if Drains would be included).

I'm thinking I'd probably stick in Time Vault + Key in there first (since they're cheap and revealing one 'of em and a tutor on an AN run already = win) before I'd consider Drains.
Not to mention taking infinite turns to storm out is uber cool.

Lastly, I really never found having sufficient mana source to cast Ad Nauseam a problem in the first place, but then again I could just be lucky.

It could be helpful if you can post some sort of a draft.
I'm having problems sticking in Drains to the skeleton that I have in mind.

@Purple Hat

I go Necro->mini Tendrils->Necro->mini Tendrils an awful lot myself.
I am still not convinced to drop Necro altogether especially in a storm deck that already runs 3 Tendrils main.

[3eowulf]

@ Chill79
I think I never used Ad Nauseam as a counter bait.
That's because the deck runs a good amount of disruption, and:
- In the first turns disruption should be enough to force it trough, while baiting with it would require the expenditure of precious rituals and having another in hand, which is less probable that having disruption.
- Especially late in the game you should be able to use a counterwar to ramp up enough storm to win even without Ad Nauseam.

From your list I really don't like the Repeal that is strictly inferior to Chain of Vapor and Mind's Desire that, while a bomb on it's own sucks with Ad Nauseam. Timetwister, I think, is a matter of personal choice, but I found it absolutely underwhelming. Likewise I used to run Tolarian but cut it (and added the 4Th Chrome Mox) because i found the deck really  hungry. Also, not playing Demonic Consultation looks to me just a plain mistake.


@ meadbert

And yeah, it might seem moot, but revealing dead cards to AN and losing two points of life in the process frequently decides the game's outcome (I'm talking about Confidants here, it could get even more ugly if Drains would be included).

-This. That by the way is the reason why i switched 4xThoughtseize+1xPact of Negation (to grab with Merchant) -> 4xPoN+1xSeize.
-Plus, apart from Ad Nauseam we have no Drain sinks.
-Also, Drains benefits a defensive strategy, whereas the deck is inherently offensive.

[bluemage55]

The main trouble is that reliably getting to  and  means running either too many lands or an unstable base.

Unfortunately, this problem is fairly crushing.  Drain decks absolutely need to drop two blue mana producing lands in a row;  the only way to reliably get BB on top of this makes your mana base very fragile.  It's not the same as the  of Tendrils, which typically only casting to end the game.

[jbrauer99]

Hey Hale,

Good to see this deck has sparked further interest.  I really enjoyed our brief testing at TMDO, and then our subsequent tournament round.  As a shop player, I can say that the MD confidents make the deck much scarier.  Not only do they back up your man plan post board, but they provide a steady stream of card advantage enabling you to keep up on board position, and help buy you enough time to find your answers.  When the lhurgoyf joins the battle this simply buys time to go into the red zone.  In general I think they give an otherwise very linear strategy a bit of diversity and resilience.  As for H. recall vs. rebuild, I have always built my gauntlet decks with both post board, usually 2 and 1 respectively.  Though rebuild costs 1 extra, chalice at two should not be allowed to negate your entire SB plan.  It also has the added advantage of being able to be used on your turn to wipe out locks --> relay moxen --> go off.  This can often get around tangle wire were hurks can’t.  Man I hate these cards   Anyway, I was also very surprised to see these lists without necro.  I do understand it, but I think it probably still has a place.  With bob and AN I can see how there is going to be a lot of pressure on your life total.  But in a deck that runs 3-4 tendrills, this would seem to be less of a problem.  I would think that forcing through a bomb becomes the main issue, and necro is definitely a bomb.  The way this deck plays necro would be quite different than say TPS, but slow rolling it with this build seems good.  Without even having to mini tendrils a couple times post necro, I can imagine setting 5-7 cards aside and assembling hands that just win.  Doing things like generating extra storm via chain, will, ancestral, etc…  And again, even if you don’t quite get there, just repeat.  Good luck with this build, it seems very promising. 

Joel

Oh, and maybe next time we meet we can play some real games.  You know, like where we both try to actually win