Building TPS

[jester3397]

I haven't played in months and I've been eyeing to play TPS with all this Tez decks running rampant even here in Manila. With the meta probably Tez, RG Aggro and Ichorid. Will going the TPS route the best option?

Here is the decklist:

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mind's Desire
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Tinker
1 Rebuild
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Recoup
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Possible sideboard
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 REB
2 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Swamp


Most the of the reasons for lacking cards like Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal and off-color moxen are due to the fact that I don't have the cards and the tournament being sanctioned... I know proxy is not that big on this side of the planet.

Some questions:
1. Do I run Tolarian Academy? If yes, what do I cut?
2. Am I right to run 2 Tendrils of Agony being that I lack tutors?
3. Do I cut red and just run UB but what do I run? Windfall(lack of timetwister)? 2nd Misdirection? 2 Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand?
4. Does thoughtseize have a place in a deck like this?
5. Do I run confidants instead? (taking out Misdirection, Minds Desire, Gifts Ungiven, Colossus)
6. I do have the option of running Tarmogoyfs in the board is it too ambitious and might put a strain in my manabase?

Due to unique (budget) contraints on my part, I have some very interesting card choices that are not typically the norm.

Cards I lack that are usually found on decks like this:
Grim Tutor
Imperial Seal
Timetwister
Time Walk
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl

Thanks for your comments and suggestions

[ra_2_soldier]

I would definitely include tolarian academy.  Its just so good and it can make getting the mana for a mind's desire so much easier. I would probably cut one of the underground sea's as i cant see that making a difference in fetching the colors you need.

[jester3397]

I really should be running Tolarian Academy.

Is the Volcanic Island and Badlands too much to run just 2 red cards?

[Frenger]

I'd cut red. The benefit is a much more stable mana base and you don't give up much. Wheel of Fortune is easily replaced by Windfall is you want a draw7 in that slot, and recoup was quite sub par when I tested with it. Gifts is plenty strong in this deck already without recoup.

If you don't have the off color moxen, running either Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand in their place is good because they help you find mana early on.

I don't think Thoughtselze or Dark Confidant have a place in this deck. 4 Duress effects are plenty and if you cut DSC, Desire, Gifts, and MisD as you suggested the deck gets considerable worse. TSeize and Confidant have their place in GWSx type decks which dake much better advantage of them than TPS.

You definitely should run Academy, even without the extra moxen. As has been mentioned above, it makes casting Mind's Desire much easier.

As far as two tendrils, I always run that many. It sucks to have it duressed or to have it removed with a memory jar and not have another one.

By the way, how have you likes Lion's Eye Diamond?

[jester3397]

I'm definitely running Tolarian. If I were to cut red altogether I'd be doing this:

-1 Wheel of Fortune
-1 Recoup
-1 Volcanic Island
-1 Badlands
+2 Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand (still can't decide which is better)
+1 Swamp
+1 Tolarian Academy

About LED, it takes some getting used to before liking it. It usually works best with Duress or if your quite sure you won' get countered, it helps a lot when in response to a draw 7, bargain or will than off-color moxen. It's not a win more as it might seem at first and makes for some interesting situations. Also I've been accustomed to it being quite powerful with recoup.

How crazy am I to think that Intuition has a place with my decklist? Given my unique constraint?
Instead of running 2 serum/sleight maybe I can run +1 Intuition and +1 Windfall.

[jamestosetti]

      I would take out echoing truth for a hurkyl's recall. In a storm deck you want every single card to maximize your chance of ending the game. Hurkyl's recall can be played similar to chain of vapor to bounce your artifacts for lethal storm and can win the game on turn 1. It is also great protection against Inkwell Levithan. I would also include windfall if your using wheel of fortune. Also rebuild is vital in the main deck because of its cycling ability.

     You should experiment on playing only one tendrils and then playing two tendrils and then using one in the main and one in the s/b. Two tendrils in the main is good for certain metagames. Pyroclasm is awesome in the s/b when playing red. Negator can be good but I would't expect alot from him. Extirpate is exceptional against ichorid as well as pithing needle for their bazaar's. Hymn to tourach is great for very good mana drain players.

      You may like Inkwell Leviathan over dsc because you can pitch him to force of will and he has shroud. You will find out when memory jar is better to tinker in. When you have 2 lands and a mox it's nearly always the right choice. Your mana base needs around 4 basic lands because you won't make it far against decks playing wasteland. The reason tps is able to keep up is because it's mana base is nearly unneffected by wasteland. You have to practice when to crack the fetch and for either basic or nonbasic. I started on a deck similar to your's using wheel of fortune and windfall and it was great practice but as you improve I recommend using the list Steve Menendian posted in the article  "High Level Tips, Winning with TPS."

[jester3397]

Taking all suggestions into account, would this be a better build then?

Instants 21
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries 15
3 Serum Visions
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
4 Duress
2 Tendril's of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

Enchantements 2
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Artifacts 9
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Memory Jar
1 Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Lands 13
3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

[jaeppel]

looking this over, i wonder how effective chain/rebuild/hurkyl are at generating storm and mana, which has always been a central part of tps strategy.  of what i would consider a base configuration of ~10 artifact mana souces you have only seven, which makes the likelyhood of tossing out a broken mox-bounce much less likely.  i understand there are certain budget limitations, but tps for me is really a deck that needs to run optimal artifact mana to be stable.  the cabal rituals occupy the space of the missing moxen.  it gets the job done, but i think once you abandon the 5 mox plan for the 7 ritual plan, adnauseum seems a more synergystic storm combo build.  tps is an archetype that really wants to go mox, mox, crypt, chain, mox, mox, crypt, you lose.  i think now storming on a budget is all about nauseum.  and the name is awesome too.

[hauntedechos]

I'm not trying to reanimate a dead thread here...I just didn't know wether to start a new thread or use this as a forum for my thought.


Ok, since we are talking budget here, we are looking at the cost of running Grim tutors as well yes?  I myself cannot afford them, so I've been testing Night's Whispers and also looking at Doomsday as well.  My list is almost card for card of what Mr. Menendian has offered in his articles on TPS, save for I don't splash the , or run desire as I don't own one as of this moment.

Current list is as follows:

Kill: 2

Tendrils
DsC

mana sources: 28

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted delta
2 Flooded strand
2 U. Sea
5 Moxen
Black lotus
lotus petal
manacrypt
mana vault
Sol Ring
4 Dark rituals
2 Cabal rituals

Lesser engines: 6

Ancestral Recall
Brain Storm
Ponder
2 Night's Whisper

Tutors: 5

Demonic
Vampiric
Imperial
Mystical
Merchant Scroll

Major engines/bombs: 9

Tinker
Time twister
Necro
Gifts
Fact
Jar
Bargain
Yawg's Win
Time Walk

Protection: 11

4 Force
4 Duress
Rebuild
Chain of vapour
Mis D (would replacing this card with another Duress effect/bounce effect be a mistake..I've never used it as much as pitched it)

I live in a proxy friendly environment, so the power is proxied of course.  I don't proxy the Grim's because I have cards available that allow me to work with the deck (night's Wispers).  There is no academy, becuase I am not running Desire (this will change when I own the card of course) and in reality the deck runs a black count that cannot really capitolize on the U mana.

Being that there is already a high reliance on black (with my list), I was thinking that I could/should run Doomsday.  I've always been a huge fan of this card since I was pushing for it in TTS (with other advocates this lead to NLD).  To fully abuse this card, we need to up the number of lesser engine cards to raise the chance of holding one and thusly fire off a tutored Doomsday.  Eric Becker has once stated that he was not a fan of the Doomsday Deck due to the narrow lines of play the card pushes the pilot into.  I totally agree with this sentiment, however -as with TTS- I think the budget player could really use this card as it allows you to assemble the needed line of cards to win.  In addition, you then do not have to fire off expensive Major engines and hope that it all strings along (there isn't much hope involved, the deck does what it is supposed to do most of the time..but still).  Clearly Doomsday is not as resilient as Desire, due to the lack of built in counter protection and it cannot be pitched, yet I think the lower and more accessable casting cost and the fact that you can end the game on the spot attempts to balance thoes facts out.

From a budget players perspective, could Night's Whispers and a singleton Doomsday be a good alternative to Desire and Grim's?  Further more, could this configuration allow a budget player to ease up on the moxen requirements and place that unto the Ritual camp?  I know that Ad Nause may be better suited for these thoughts, but to be honest I just don't like the feel of Ad Naus.dec

Cheers
Michael

[Webster]

From a budget players perspective, could Night's Whispers and a singleton Doomsday be a good alternative to Desire and Grim's?

Mind's Desire isn't shouldn't be substituted for many reasons, namely:
1) It's a $3 card.
2) It's functionally unique and important to have against many popular decks.

[hauntedechos]

@ David: point taken.  Understanding that it can be pitched and has built in counter protection (also it was not a cost consideration really), the idea that I was trying to suggest was a package deal.  By that I mean, with Doomsday, you look at setting the card up differently than Desire.  Desire wants multiple cards fired off before it, and thusly draw into more cards that will hopefully get you there.  It also begs Tolarians to ease the UU burden (which as I've read sometimes, is a point made by players with Desire), which opens you up to mana denial plans that I won't bother with here.  Doomsday wants a critical mass of mana to fire it off and the card that draws you into the chain to win.  Beyond that, it fits with the ritualcentric theme of TPS, as does Night's blackness.

On the other hand, there is the life points issue.  Understanding that if you fire off Necro or Bargain, Doomsday is NOT going to be an option when using Night's as the link into the pile.  In that situation, you are going Willcentric anyways so both cards are more than likely undesirable.

I'm unsure of exactly what decks you are talking about (not disputing, just looking for names here), but I'll assume they are decks that counter spells.  In that event (where desires storm effect works around that), I would assume one would set up Doomsday with a duress effect or have a Force in hand to protect DDay.  If I've missed your point or specific deck(s), please let me know because I really should know these things (serious, not being an ass here)

Michael

[LordHomerCat]

@ David: point taken.  Understanding that it can be pitched and has built in counter protection (also it was not a cost consideration really), the idea that I was trying to suggest was a package deal.  By that I mean, with Doomsday, you look at setting the card up differently than Desire.  Desire wants multiple cards fired off before it, and thusly draw into more cards that will hopefully get you there.  It also begs Tolarians to ease the UU burden (which as I've read sometimes, is a point made by players with Desire), which opens you up to mana denial plans that I won't bother with here.  Doomsday wants a critical mass of mana to fire it off and the card that draws you into the chain to win.  Beyond that, it fits with the ritualcentric theme of TPS, as does Night's blackness.

On the other hand, there is the life points issue.  Understanding that if you fire off Necro or Bargain, Doomsday is NOT going to be an option when using Night's as the link into the pile.  In that situation, you are going Willcentric anyways so both cards are more than likely undesirable.

I'm unsure of exactly what decks you are talking about (not disputing, just looking for names here), but I'll assume they are decks that counter spells.  In that event (where desires storm effect works around that), I would assume one would set up Doomsday with a duress effect or have a Force in hand to protect DDay.  If I've missed your point or specific deck(s), please let me know because I really should know these things (serious, not being an ass here)

Michael

Playing TPS against any drain deck will quickly reveal to you where Desire is good.  It is far and away the scariest card you can have against them, and a TPS deck without Desire is definitely a dog to Drains.  The beauty of Desire is that Drain's defenses don't work against it.  Against most drain decks (particularly the ones with duress), they can often get more counters active than you can bombs and duresses.  In addition, there is always stuff like SDT floating around to make your protection ineffective.  Without something like Desire, anything but a really powerful hand from TPS can lead to you stalling and dying because your bomb was countered and you had to spend cards generating extra mana like Rits, which the Drain deck was able to devote to stopping you from winning.

By having Desire, every tutor you play is potentially lethal.  When you cast Desire for 6, there is little a Drain deck can do at that point.  Any other spell in your deck is open to Drains and Force, but Desire changes the whole game.

Desire is not terrific against mana denial.  It is pretty crappy against Shops.  It is average at best against most Fish, who only have 4 real counters anyway.  It is pretty marginal against the people who aren't playing blue spells (you might as well just Bargain them if they can't counter you).  However, it is the most important card in your 75 against Drain decks and I can't imagine playing without it.

Doomsday does not do the same thing.  Doomsday is like a worse Necro or Bargain.  Those cards are not where you get a strategic advantage against Counterspell decks.  It is just another bomb except one that is much less reliable than Necro, Bargain, Will, and sometimes Twister or Jar.  Doomsday might be fine in the deck, but not playing Desire is crazy.  Also, how do you plan to Doomsday effectively with no Desire?  It's the basis for basically every winning pile nowadays, so I'm pretty sure you can't leave it out if you really want to play Doomsday.

[hauntedechos]

@ Homercat:  Clearly I have a LONG way to go with mastering TPS (honestly I haven't been playing it that long).  I've become enlightened as to the absolute necessity of Desire in TPS when considering Drain decks (which of course are quite popular right now)  In my area, there are not a lot of Drain players, so I'm sure that is a contributing factor to my lack of understanding here.

I'm also understanding that what I am trying to do with Dday is not in line with how TPS rolls.  It's risky and can potentially open you up to situations that you cannot get out of.  TpS seems to like having flexibility with what the next course of action will be, especially when an attempt to seal the deal or fire off a major engine has failed.  Doomsday, if answered, leaves you dead with no more outs (as Eric had stated some time ago).

Thanks guys for the input and potentially saving me from a horrid tourny exp.

Haunted.

[Marske]

@hauntedechos,
I think running flooded strands doens't help you out all that much, because you want black mana and strand doesn't fetch that without opening you up to wasteland (Sea) To be honest I don't think you got the room to make TPS "budget" worthy and still a "tier 1" deck.. one can debate which splash (Green, Red) the maindeck could have or how many tutors (2 grim no seal, 1 grim 1 seal etc) but for the rest I don't think you should try and Budget this deck.

If you want to play storm on a budget ANT seems much better..