Mr. Gaddock - The rodless fish

[Guli]

Hi dear fellow TMD readers and contributers

I have presented the approach I am going to promote in this thread in the past. Of course the concept stays the same but the list is changed. In fact that is becoming one of the characteristics of my approach, I tend to change the list constantly (dynamic). Here is the link to the previous thread, it received a lot of feedback. In fact it was one of the most viewed threads for a long time on our forum. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36820.0

The title of this thread needs some explaination. I am sure if the previous thread is read it will make sense instantly but I can't expect from anybody to read through all that. So a quick clarification is welcome I suppose. Right now I advise to play Null Rod to fish players out there. I say this because i think fish = null rod in a lot of ways. The mana denial strategy is one of the most solid ways to enforce the fish game plan. I agree with that myself but I also want to present other routes. Therefore I started working on a list without mana denial containing the most powerful creatures printed. The pilot will rely on his own skill by utilizing the strong effects of creatures like Canonist and Gaddock Teeg without a heavy mana denial theme. In short this means you will play with more acceleration yourself with cards like Mox diamond or Chrome mox or the one I opt for Aether Vial. Aether Vial is long term acceleration and tempo but one of the strongest things about Vial is that it avoids counterspells, trinisphere, sphere of resistance, tangle wire, meddling mage, chalice, .... you get the picture.

So by giving up the mana denial you get something in return. However it has to be noted not to rely too much on the vial. Playing the mirror against ROD based fish that will hurt your mana base is a good example. Still Rod will not stop my tarms, canonists, confidants. And those are my warriors that will bring them down.

In my older approach I used a lot of 4 offs to make the deck consistent. In time i sophisticated the card choices. The more effects the better. You don't want multiple canonist or teeg but a mix of them spell trouble for the combo player. This applies only to certain cards. For example you can't have enough Tarms or Confidants (in most situations). So later on the text you will see this nuance in the list. There is another justification in adding "less of the same and more of the other" namely I am now using a very powerful tutor that hardly makes it in fish lists. The reason for that is because of the tempo you are losing to tutor up your threat. My solution for this loss is the vial of course. Eladamri's Call will be able to get whatever you need at instant speed and because almost all your KEY creatures are 2 mana you will most likely have Vial sitting at 2. The combination of Eladamri's Call and Aether Vial is deadly and it is all instant speed. To make Vial/Call more effective and versatile it is wise to add as much creatures as possible. And the good thing is you don't need to add more than 2 for the once that are more specific. The part of your creature base that is universal or extremely important you can dedicate the full 4 slots.

With this short introduction I am presenting the list now. Normally I would write more information but since this is the improvement section of the forum and the deck is relatively untested (this does not mean that I didn't put my time and thoughts into it) I will keep it short and await the feedback. Before I post the list I want to make another comment. I believe that White for Canonist, Black for Confidant and Green for Tarm
is a very solid approach. I didn't add 4x canonist because there is also teeg, believer and aven present. Against many decks but especially combo it is better to have multiple effects. Because I have so many 2x with all kinds of effects I think the 2x Sylvan Safekeeper is more justified. Lastly keeper+teeg is a combo against tendrils. With Eladamri's Call i can collect my 'combo' or 'lock' pieces much faster than usual making the match very easy.

MOST RECENT LIST:

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The goal of this thread is like the last thread posted about Rodles Fish. Feel free to give hard critics but back it up with solid arguments.

Thanks for reading and fire away the feedback!

Guli

[Harlequin]

The big danger I see with this deck is that you arn't particularly fast and you have no way of saying "no" to timevault/key (or Tinker->Inkwell for that mater). 

Even Turn 2 Call, into turn 3 Aven Mindcensor is just fast enough to get drained.  And if you wait until turn 4 to make good on your turn 1 vial ramped to 3, you might be too late... as you've done, what amounts to nothing for 3 turns.  I dunno, unless I'm missing something, It seems like even Tezz's average hands would have no trouble beating a 'god-hand' from this deck. 

Without throwing too harsh a judgement at it, I'll pose it as a question.   What does your 'average' first 3-5 turns look like against an average Tezz hand (for example 3-4 mana sources, 1-2 counters, 1-3 draw/tutors)?

EDIT: Added...
Even while 'even probability ground' you can show how you have even footing.  If they have even a remotely 'above average' hand, you have zero outs.  For example: Land, Land, Mox, Tinker - or Land, Land, Mox, Combo peice, Tutor; Or simply Land, Land, double combo piece.  Sure Tezz doesn't do this every game, but its bound to happen from time to time, and I can't even Imagin what your hand would have to be to beat these hands. (lotus aven? lotus, strip, goyf x4?)  Other fish decks sport: Rod, Duress, Chalice and/or counterspells to at least have a fight'n chance against drains busted openers. 

[Guli]

Vial decks are always slow. But the slow nature of vial is compensated by the effects of the creatures.

Against control/combo i see a lot of cards that will be strong. If you let a vial resolve, i think you will have cut your winning chances in half when you are using mana drain. That means you will have to burn a Force to stop it. I would like more acceleration in this deck though. But I am a bit worried about the off color moxes. Maybe a couple chrome mox to pitch the useless silver bullets is possible since there are a lot of mana source in the deck. It might be wise to cut a savannah and a bayou to replace with 2 chrome or 1 petal/1 chrome. This way the chances of turn 1 Confidant increase as well.

Well the list got the weapons to stop the engine of tezz.dec but not the win condition itself. Does this answer the question a bit? With so many creatures available I am really not going to make hypothetical scenarios and use them to justify my card choices. However I do know that canonist, aven, teeg, condifant, tarm are all strong cards against control. Aven + safekeeper is what I will most likely try to get on the table asap. But believer can also cause problems since intuition/gifts work targeted.

I added more acceleration though. I was thinking about doing that already but your comment on the speed of the deck gave me the motive to do so right away. It doesn't solve everything I realize that but it will help a lot.

Do you think this list will have a hard time against tezz? I think it is one of the better match ups.

[Harlequin]

However I do know that canonist, aven, teeg, condifant, tarm are all strong cards against control.

Canonist ~ Possibly against General control, but only if you have counters and a high artifact count (for example you drop null rod with counter back-up = uncounterable rod).  Otherwise I wouldn't say its particularly strong against control.  They are still going to cast either Tinker, or Tutor + an artifact combo piece, and cannonist has done nothing to prevent that.  With TV/Key in the meta, Cannonist is actually NOT good against "control" (combo is another story).

Aven ~ ok against control.  Better if you can turn 2 or 1 him.  The reason Aven isn't a staple in fish decks is because he is just 1 turn too late.  Aven on turn 3 = give your opponent drain mana next turn.  If he cost 1W he would be a 4-of in Every fish deck sporting a Tundra because he would destroy drain decks.  At 3cmc (even with flash) he just falls prey to drain.  (heck even WW would make him much more playable, but that is niether here nor there).

Teeg ~ decent against control.  But doesn't do anything to inhibbit Tinker, tutors or combo peices.

Confidant ~ great against control IF you have a deck full of cheap 'fishy' disruption like duress, rod, daze, etc.  As a suppliment to a 'beats' plan he's a minor concern at best.  Really he's counterbait for this deck. 

Tarmogoyf ~ Jury is still out.  As a clock for a disruption built fish deck, he's definatly runnable... but again not show-stopping.  As ~again~ he doesn't do anything to stop Tinker, tutors, or combo peices.

The problem is out of 60 cards you have 2 cards that hinder Tinker, Tutors, and TV/Key.  Those cards aren't even that good as they come down on turn 3 counterable, and turn 4 uncounterable (and you have to ramp your vial to 3 which is outside the range of the rest of your deck).

This deck would do fine again 'old' control decks not running TV/Key and black cards.  But today "Control" never being more than 2 mana away from gaining infinite turns... I just don't see this deck having even a 1 in 10 chance of beating Tezz in game let alone a match.  Put Teeg, Cannonist and heck even True Believer in play (leyline style) and then play Tezz against that board.  You'll likely still average a turn 3-5 combos maybe turn 6 if you throw in a turn 1 wasteland.   The only card that will have an impact on how quickly they assemble thier combo in your whole deck is Aven. 

If you let a vial resolve, i think you will have cut your winning chances in half when you are using mana drain. That means you will have to burn a Force to stop it.

For the reasons above, I don't think this quote is true either.  Drain may not be able to get the Vial, but 50% of the time (or more considering losing to the toss and having sapphire or lotus) drain will be able to hit the E-Call.  Which they will certianly take advantage of, if you're sitting there with an untapped vial.    I think the issue runs deeper than a few hand-killing chrome moxen can fix.

[Guli]

A quick question to throw in: I am testing out the 5 strip/waste. I don't consider them as real mana sources. So those slots could be used for other kinds of disruption like Duress/Thoughtseize/Orim. The issue i have with duress is that this is not a black heavy deck. You don't want to fetch scrubland turn 1 unless you are playing turn 1 confidant. I used Orim as a time walk/counter/tempo in the past with success. I dropped it to test other cards but never was dissatisfied with Orim. The thing I am wondering is that without a real mana denial strategy maybe wasteland (not strip mine he is always good to have but if I cut waste strip should go too) is not going to do what it suppose to do. I like the idea of vial/wasteland to gain extra tempo but I don't think it will be effective here.

What are the thoughts on the issue of wasteland? If wastelands are cut should the 5 slots be replaced with disruption or should the 5 slots be used to cover up weak spots of the deck? etc

[Guli]

However I do know that canonist, aven, teeg, condifant, tarm are all strong cards against control.

Canonist ~ Possibly against General control, but only if you have counters and a high artifact count (for example you drop null rod with counter back-up = uncounterable rod).  Otherwise I wouldn't say its particularly strong against control.  They are still going to cast either Tinker, or Tutor + an artifact combo piece, and cannonist has done nothing to prevent that.  With TV/Key in the meta, Cannonist is actually NOT good against "control" (combo is another story).

Aven ~ ok against control.  Better if you can turn 2 or 1 him.  The reason Aven isn't a staple in fish decks is because he is just 1 turn too late.  Aven on turn 3 = give your opponent drain mana next turn.  If he cost 1W he would be a 4-of in Every fish deck sporting a Tundra because he would destroy drain decks.  At 3cmc (even with flash) he just falls prey to drain.  (heck even WW would make him much more playable, but that is niether here nor there).

Teeg ~ decent against control.  But doesn't do anything to inhibbit Tinker, tutors or combo peices.

Confidant ~ great against control IF you have a deck full of cheap 'fishy' disruption like duress, rod, daze, etc.  As a suppliment to a 'beats' plan he's a minor concern at best.  Really he's counterbait for this deck. 

Tarmogoyf ~ Jury is still out.  As a clock for a disruption built fish deck, he's definatly runnable... but again not show-stopping.  As ~again~ he doesn't do anything to stop Tinker, tutors, or combo peices.

The problem is out of 60 cards you have 2 cards that hinder Tinker, Tutors, and TV/Key.  Those cards aren't even that good as they come down on turn 3 counterable, and turn 4 uncounterable (and you have to ramp your vial to 3 which is outside the range of the rest of your deck).

This deck would do fine again 'old' control decks not running TV/Key and black cards.  But today "Control" never being more than 2 mana away from gaining infinite turns... I just don't see this deck having even a 1 in 10 chance of beating Tezz in game let alone a match.  Put Teeg, Cannonist and heck even True Believer in play (leyline style) and then play Tezz against that board.  You'll likely still average a turn 3-5 combos maybe turn 6 if you throw in a turn 1 wasteland.   The only card that will have an impact on how quickly they assemble thier combo in your whole deck is Aven. 

If you let a vial resolve, i think you will have cut your winning chances in half when you are using mana drain. That means you will have to burn a Force to stop it.

For the reasons above, I don't think this quote is true either.  Drain may not be able to get the Vial, but 50% of the time (or more considering losing to the toss and having sapphire or lotus) drain will be able to hit the E-Call.  Which they will certianly take advantage of, if you're sitting there with an untapped vial.    I think the issue runs deeper than a few hand-killing chrome moxen can fix.

The lack of counter spells and null rod does create concerns in my mind as well. However I know for sure that you will understand that a great deal of counter and disruption are integrated in my creature package. Teeg stops a relevant amount of cards however he is still narrow on its own. Thing is he will not be alone. I agree that adding additional acceleration will not solve the core problem which is to completely shut down drain/combo. But I think that you are overestimating the chances of tezz against this list. Almost all the creatures are GOOD against the engine of TV/Key. If I add more cards to hate that match up I will be creating other weak match ups. I am sure you played against decks that use some of these creatures and they were at best annoying but the idea here is to use multiple annoying effects. Effects that will stop you from tutoring, countering, playing your cards in the order that you want, make you play faster because you have less turns, ... I don't have to stop your win condition at all, if I narrow myself to 2 cards that happen to get infinite I won't be able to compete at all against your draw/tutor/counter engine. I tried to justify my choices here in a bit more detail.

The nice thing about ROD is that it does also, next to the mana denial, stop the V/KEY. That is one of the reasons why ROD is good right now and should be played. But like I said before and I will say now again, I don't like to limit myself to 1 theme. The ROD theme is a respectable archetype and is accepted. But that does not mean that other paths are blocked and should not be explored.

So there is no direct counter or disruption like force or duress. I don't have Null Rod either. But I do have the combined power of Confidant (black), Tarm (green) and Canonist/Teeg/Believer/Aven (white). And all of these creature pack elements of disruption and control. I added in the support engine of vial/call and some silver bullets to make call more flexible.

There is always the possibility to play with Krosan grib main deck to snipe the artifacts. In fact I will try the Krosan's main deck. Also Tidehollow Sculler is a nice tool for Call/Vial. Wastelands are cut to make room. They weren't helping anyway. Also the Kami's are onviously more SB material.

[nineisnoone]

But Teeg doesn't stop that many relevant cards in the match-ups.  I would only anticipate that he hits 5 cards (4x FoW and Tezzeret).  And while that is something, it's not really that much. And notably, it doesn't stop the cards that they win the match-up with... TFK, Tutors, and Key/Vault. 

I don't think Cannonist does much in this match-up. Slowing them down to two spells a turn (one on theirs one on yours) isn't going to hurt them that much.

In my RGW list, I ran some Elvish Scrapper/Scavenger Folk as my maindeck answer to Tezz. Though post-board I would still bring in Seals and had one maindeck.

Also is Call better than Survival?  I pretty much like Survival over Call.

[Guli]

But Teeg doesn't stop that many relevant cards in the match-ups.  I would only anticipate that he hits 5 cards (4x FoW and Tezzeret).  And while that is something, it's not really that much. And notably, it doesn't stop the cards that they win the match-up with... TFK, Tutors, and Key/Vault.

Yes! That is why I prefer to use 2x of each of those hosers and work with tutors.

Survival over Call. Hmmm, I remember the discussion about Survival a bit. For me the tutor looks more appealing. Its an instant you use it once and don't have to discard a creature. I can see the benefits of the survival too though.

[John Jones]

I think this deck would benefit from

Abu Jafar to combat Levithan
Elvish Scrapper to combat Artifacts better and possibly Ichorid
Kami of The False Home to combat Ichorid and R/G beats/aggro stragities
Entrails Feaster or the 4/4 goon to combat Ichorid and possibly Slaver
Gnat Miser to combat remora type decks... its a stretch

[Guli]

I think this deck would benefit from

Abu Jafar to combat Levithan
Elvish Scrapper to combat Artifacts better and possibly Ichorid
Kami of The False Home to combat Ichorid and R/G beats/aggro stragities
Entrails Feaster or the 4/4 goon to combat Ichorid and possibly Slaver
Gnat Miser to combat remora type decks... its a stretch

Isn't Ohran Viper interesting if we are going to combat Levithan on the table. I prefer to stop tinker with Aven and the combined pressure of my other effects/removals. But Jafar is only 1 white mana so I do think your suggestion has some justification. It is cheap and fast. Thing is that I tend to draw a lot of their counters out of their hand early on because they don't want to see a teeg or canonist online. Condifant and tarm will also draw attention. If they go with Tinker plan without counter back up then my edict will get the job done. I changed the configuration to 2x edic 2x Exile in main and side and i added a demonic tutor.

I am very skeptical about scrapper. So the best thing for me to do is try him out. Can anybody who played him in give a good portion of insight? Not theory but real time scenarios.

Children is better than Kami of False Hope and I run him because he is decent against ichorid. But he can also steal games against tendrils if they decide to go of too early. I want to keep the option open to be able to Call for him when it's very early in the game, vial@1, and they go off on me with tendrils I can call for the children as a surprise factor. If they wait I can get Believer the same way. So Children and believer are in there to play out that scenario. But Children helps in aggro and icho as well and also against tinker he can buy you a turn but I don't consider the last arguments as serious myself.

Extirpate, Jailer, Children, Teeg, Kami-Ancient law, exile/edict are all good to fight ichorid. I don't think Feaster is necessary but damn I do like his effect. So I am not dismissing him but right now I ll leave him were he is, out of the list.

I can't worry about Remora when I play so many creatures. I hope you understand me when I say I don't fear remora.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate every comment. Keep it coming!

[John Jones]

Honestly, I was a lil fucked up when I was posting last night. The fact that I actually posted cards that could potentially help you with out actually reading anything is in amazement to me. And you are right about Abu Jafar, I think mindcensor would do the job. The only thing about edict is that if they have Wedler + Levithan, you're kinda boned.

[nineisnoone]

I am very skeptical about scrapper. So the best thing for me to do is try him out. Can anybody who played him in give a good portion of insight? Not theory but real time scenarios.

Is playable turn 1 so it drops before they have drain mana available.  If you are playing against blue control, it's probably Tezz so keep one G open and don't attack with it.  Odds are it's either Remora or Tezz and Remora (being that you are the hypothetical creature deck) should be a good match-up.  Other than that, you just let your deck do whatever it does.  It's pretty much just what it is.  It's not ideal for raw artifact removal, but it's cheap and a creature which were important in the RGW deck I was building.

[Guli]

I have another idea in combining Aether Vial and tutors. What would happen if 4 additional tutors would be added. Living Wish is basically the same thing as Call, but at sorcery speed, if the SB is adjusted a little. The idea would be to become a highly reactive deck by tutoring for the creatures that hurt the opponent most in the given match. Confidant/Tarm will remain in the deck as solid 4 offs to serve as draw and clock. This means that overall space will be created. This space can be used to disrupt whatever you want to disrupt. I am thinking Chalice, Orim's Chant and Duress. Having access to your sideboard in game 1 is an advantage. And in game 2 you can side out the Wishes to bring in the things you want to wish for anyway.

I am not sure how the balance should be set up between the main and sideboard. And I am not sure of this Call/Wish approach is sound. But I do know that you will get whatever you need consistently. Is it playable? Will I be able to successfully cast down the things i tutor for?

[the_lord_shaper]

Also if you wanted more tutors other then Call, there's always Vamp Tutor and the unristicted Worldly Tutor. Both only cost 1 and are instants. The living Wish idea is a neat thought. I would suggest the Vamp. Tutor and maybe some main decked Pithing Needles.

[Guli]

Worldly tutor seems so bad on paper. You can't vial the card in, it loses a card and well tempo. However, if somehow things like top (or something alike) can be used to get that top deck in your hand and naturally this means with an active vial on the table then it might be justified. It is extremely cheap, 1 green, even if it gets drained it won't be that much of a big deal.

Let's say hypothetically that card you tutor for will break the game. I like the example of getting Jailer against ichorid. Or getting Canonist/Believer against combo. If timed right these cards can steal games in those match ups. Is it possible to create an engine that runs smooth enough to get these cards into play. With a package of 8 instant tutors and vials I can see strong plays. You can simply play the deck like a control deck reacting to everything the opponent does by tutoring and manipulating top deck IF you have access to vial. With vial on line the game plan would be optimal. Without active vial I can still see interesting plays. Especially in moments of silence when both players need a couple turns to recover or build up, at a time like that tutoring for Confidant to refuel yourself can be enough to seal the deal. Or getting multiple tarms on the table overwhelming the opponent with dinosaurs.

The big change of heart here is that I want to trade some consistency with tutoring. My lists were raw and consistent with a lot of 4 offs. I would like to find a way to give myself more reactivity. Is it wrong to use these tutors in control aggro? Are the cards you can get not strong enough like for example merchant scroll getting A Recall? Maybe fish doesn't have the time to tutor/search and should try to cast a threat or disruption when possible. On the other hand I see in Blue and Black lists some tutoring like demonic and scroll. Some run mystical/vamp/consultation as well. Or is tutoring for creatures not good in a creature based deck?

I don't like to have multiple Gaddock TeeG in my hand or in my deck. I do want 1 on the table and I prefer not to lose him. I really want that canonist on line against combo and some versions of control(combo). But I hate to draw canonist against shop versions. I WANT to have access to the effects because that is after all what I enjoy as a fish player. To put pressure with creatures. However I don't want a hand full of that things. I want a hand were I can think and tutor and react (play magic). I know that this can't go fast so if it is the same I ll lay down my vial turn 1, an investment that will enable me to use the mana for the tutoring later on and directly use the cards that I searched for. Maybe Survival of the F is a good engine to do all this. But it is still not the same as instant tutors.

These are my thoughts. Is it possible to work out something with this route?

[nineisnoone]

Not exactly advocating the card but world tutor works well with confidant.

4 Calls imo is too much. I played with it awhile back, and I never wanted it to tutor for the first relevant creature.  I only wanted it for the 2nd.  This is even with Vial.  I would rather go with a 3x Creature and 2x Call mix. SBing in the 4th when you need it for the match-up. 

It would be sort of like putting Ancestral Recall in the SB because you play Cunning Wish.  It's not the same. A lot of a card 's strength is centered around playing it alone as is as opposed to playing a spell to tutor for it. At 2x you will simply not be drawing them frequently enough and having to tutor for them weakens the effect.  Call ended up for me being more of a way to seal a solid set of disruption as opposed to being a silver bullet tutor.

[Guli]

Well the whole idea is to create a deck full of tutors/draws and then silver bullets. But the thing is why would you go tutor for preventive/disruptive cards while other decks tutor for win conditions. Ok well the creatures are also win conditions but rather slow ones compared to vault/Key.

I got a good argument for that question. The tutors for the creatures are not restricted a full set can be played. Vial is just a natural fit but not that crucial. It is also important to protect your silver bullets whether you do this with sylvan, mage, teeg or countermagic they need to stay alive.

4x Eladamri's Call
4x Worldly Tutor
4x Aether Vial
1x Sensei's Divining Top

I discovered a neat thing about top/vial. Well i am sure it is not new tech but still i want to mention it for those who aren't aware of this. Top can simply keep that canonist or believer in the top 3 of your deck. You don't have to draw it they can safely wait there. Thing is you can tutor up creatures with worldly and keep them waiting 2nd and 3th on top of your deck. So with top the 'side effect' of Worldly tutor becomes very interesting. Top is just a card you want in the deck to support your main game plan. Maybe even Key and naturally Vault could be added as well. Key/Top is nice. Key/Vial is nice.

Frankly I even consider to use Teeg as my walking Force of Will ignoring the fact that he is a 2/2 as well. I can't explain myself here to its full extent. But I can see serious potential. I will use the effect of the creatures purely for their effect to control the opponent. I ll try to deepen with concrete explanations:

Gaddock TeeG: He is mainly a creature in the eyes of many, he beats and shuts down some important cards. Mostly used as a 2 off or perhaps 3. I will utilize his effect differently. I will just add 1 copy and have 8 ways to get him in play. I will use him to shut down force of will/misd and win conditions like tezz, tendrils, dread return, smokestacks, Mind desire, bargain etc. He will just be 1 card to tutor for if I see any indication of these match ups.

Teeg is not a beat stick. Sure you can swing with him if you know he won't die. I will still go for Tinker/Ink or Key/Vault as my win condition. Mystical/Demonic/Vampiric will be used as well to find my second toolbox. In the list I posed above I use my second toolbox to find removal. Why would I do that? I ll use the second tutor package to find my win conditions.

You still need 1 mana targets and I think Children and Cursecatcher are ideal cause their disruption is effective intermediately.

I will use Vial as my counter spells. You don't need counter spells if you can walk around them AND if the things you vial in stop their win condition. The last is important because it means you are vialing in counters. It is all preventive instead of repressive.

8x Call/Worldly
3x Demonic/Vamp/Myst
2x Vault/Key
4x Brainstorm/A Recall/Ponder/Time Walk
2x Survival of the fittest/Sensei's Divining Top (very handy tools)

3x Curse/Children/Safekeeper (to have relevant tutor targets on vial@1)
4x Teeg/Canonist/Aven/Believer
3x Gilded Drake/Thornweald Archer/meddling mage (against Tinker/Oath : DC or Inkwell)
1x Eternal Witness (could be something else in this slot, but i think the regrowth effect can be important if a recall is in grave or if you want to get back curse to remova additional bridges, or get back something that is killed/countered/removed)
4x Dark Confidant (draw)

4x Aether Vial
22x Lands/Acceleration

So the idea is to set up a board of mana/vial and go for lots of searching for silver bullets and support your win condition with those bullets.

[nineisnoone]

Oh yeah, and I just realized you probably should at least have 1 Vexing to tutor for.

The top interaction is interesting, but imo top is too mana hungry to be running in an aggro deck.
But let me know how it works out for you.

So the idea is to set up a board of mana/vial and go for lots of searching for silver bullets and support your win condition with those bullets.

This doesn't really address the point though.  I'm familiar with the cards so I know what they do.  But search and draw for "win" is better than search and draw for "not win."  When you are tutoring for disruption, you lose the attrition war.  Because when you play Tutor -> Creature, you are giving them two chances to answer you.  Whereas if you go Creature + Creature (assuming they are disruptive of course), you force them to have to deal with two cards rather than merely one or the other. 

Have you tested your new list? 

[Guli]

Yea I am testing

And it is not like you think it is. The Call's work like counters strangely enough. It is a control deck more than anything else. But I like it. To be able to play the role of control. There is a problem though. And I kinda knew this but I tested it anyway. 4 color is obviously too much. You become to reliant on vial. So it comes down to cutting black or blue. I was really enjoying blue again, going for walks and recalls, brainstorm and ponder. Meddling Mage is extremely dangerous! In fact I think he can be played 4x. You can tutor for it every time and shut down his key cards.

But black is also important for confidants, demonic, vamp. Jailer was the bomb. Ichorid has zero chance against this deck. You tutor for it right away and then they are simply kicked in the nutts. You go for sylvan safekeeper next and it is kinda over there because they can't really do anything anymore. Kinda reminds me at the match up with combo. You cast down believer/teeg/canonist and safekeeper and they are kinda locked down for a couple of turns.

I was really happy that I was able to do lots of searching and reacting. It worked out the way I wanted. Of course changes will be made to the raw list I posted in my last post.

1x Survival was amazing. It is an enormous advantage when vial/survival are on the table. Sensei acted like a mini survival but was also very very handy, I posted the reasons in my previous comments.

If I want to maintain 4 colors, which would be awesome , I need a silver bullet against stax because in that match I feel how fragile my mana base can be (unless I get a turn 1 vial, then the odds turns in my favor). Kataki seems very contradictory. But it might be playable because I don't run a full set of Null Rod/Canonist. If it is a vial that I have to keep on line I am willing to pay 1-2 mana/turn to pressure them. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is also interesting to protect against multiple weldings and wastelands and can help in other match ups as well but it is not a silver bullet imo. Here is a list of creatures that are potential candidates to use against stax and still serve as handy tools in other matches:

Kataki, War's Wage
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Magus of the unseen
Trygon Predator
Viridian Zealot

In conclusion for now, the engine works better and faster than I expected. Turn 1 vial and the next turn you are already in the game with call/curse or call/children against fast combo. However their is a lot of tuning to be done. I have played a couple of TMD users who were experienced yesterday and they found the idea appealing. Would be nice if they found their way into this thread to comment on their thoughts.

Last I want to note that Counterbalance might be interesting with all those tutors.

[nineisnoone]

well, if it's working for you by all means keep on with it.
i'll have to give it a bit testing when i have more time.

been checking up the new Alara stuff....

Qasali Pridemage
 
Creature - Cat Wizard   Common
Exalted
1, Sacrifice Qasali Pridemage: Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

i like it a lot.  finally i have something i can play instead of scrapper.

[Guli]

I have found Worldly Tutor more amazing that the Call and one of the reasons is that it doesn't seem to be an attractive target for mana drain users. Though I really like the Call as well for the fact that it is more dangerous because their is no tempo or card loss. I have yet to find the perfect configuration for the rest of the deck though. What sort of disruption I should use that is non creature. Should I play 4x Tarm and 4x Confidant or should I use those slots to do other stuff.



Seems like the answer to me. The improved Viridian Zealot if you ask me. Of course I will run at least 1 copy if I work with the tutor package.

I highly advise you to test fish with tutors/vials with the full pile. Maybe you can discover other neat mechanics with different perspectives. I am a little stuck for now need a fresh look.

BTW I saw a reprint of meddling mage. How do you people like the new art?

[Guli]

This post is not deleted but updated : See post 25

[CRAZY COW]

hi

why no "Doran, the Siege Tower"?
ok he does nothing but beating but he's a good clock.

[Mantis]

Allow me to quote a RDW master whose name I forgot:''There are no wrong threats, just wrong answers'. Your list seems to run answers, but no real threats, isnt that a problem? I can imagine tons of hand where you draw the wrong answers or your answers come too late. Furthermore this deck seems to completely forego on 2 very important Magic wisdoms: the theory of tempo and Vintages most defining characteristic: decks either run tons of broken mana or aim to deprive the opposing deck of mana. Think about it, every deck but oddball Ichorid fit this descriptiom. Yours does neither so how do you keep up against the decks that do run the best acceleration available, especially in terms of tempo? The concept is very cute, but one FoW after you spent a turn finding an answer to the threat just presented seems to spell doom on your strategy.

In short your deck appears to entirely forego the concept of tempo, how can you justify this?

[Guli]

Let me tell you something about the term tempo. The meaning can change drastically, it depends in what context you put it. You are right when you say this deck doesn't apply tempo in the known traditional way. However you are absolutely wrong if you say this deck doesn't use the concept of tempo. The way i justify a dead creature is, for example Jailer when i don't play dredge, their is only 1 copy of him and their is always the survival making all the creatures tutors. Also the ability to go tutor for the RIGHT answer completely compensates for the 'dead' draw.

This deck is a control deck with 10 tutors at its disposal. The counters/disruption AND therefor the tempo is integrated in the effects of the creatures. You are NOT casting creatures like a fish deck would. You are waiting and gather information about the opponents deck and then make the correct calls with the tutors. It is extremely important to time your tutor correctly.

The vial or hierarch are the investment you make turn 1. You are setting up the necessary mana to start tutoring the next couple of turns. Vial is better than hierarch when you are facing mana drain. However both vial and hierarch provide you with the extra mana to be able to search and respond accordingly. When I say respond I mean get something that gives you a serious advantage.

The problem for fish decks facing tinker is that they can not react on time or stop tinker because the opponent has more counters. I deal with tinker by playing with 10 tutors + survival + the actual solution to tinker. Chances are you will draw at least 1 of 12 in turn 1 or 2 or 3.

Remember that their are several cards that are strong against counter spells. When I talk about Gaddock Teeg being my Force i really mean it. I don't have to worry about being killed by certain cards anymore hence they are preemptively countered. I try to tap out the opponent often, or make sure there is no 2 blue open, because basically in that situation the only card to worry about is force. That is usually the time I vial in my teeg and so I can safely tutor and cast non creature spells. My goal is to neutralize their counter package with vial/shuser/teeg. This can happen very fast btw. The clock is ticking with vial. Once it is @2 the game turns in my favor. A good way to neutralize mana drain, if you didn't draw and cast a vial turn 1, is worldly tutor. They can drain it but their are worse things that can happen. If they decide to let it resolve my silver bullet against control comes in play and their is nothing to do about it, Vexing Shusher. This is a tactic you use when you see them trying to take the control role. I refuse to play the aggro role. I want to force them into the combo role so I can play the control role. I got my Confdiants, my tutors and the tools to control their game plan. It just happens to be with creatures. It is not like I am using savannah lions. I am using walking counter spells. Also don't forget that I don't have to tutor every time. I usually get 1 or 2 creatures that are strong anyway.

The tempo here is not in the context of mana denial. In this pile the cards in the hand are being targeted directly. They can have all the mana they want if I stop their key spells they can not win. This way you are making all their efforts to find answers a waste of time and this can be seen as tempo. How can you deal with this list? Not by ignoring the dangers that can come by letting vial resolve. Counter the vial if you can. If you don't you better win before it hits 2. You can say that you will do just that but what makes you believe that you can? Forget about keeping open 2 blue for drain. It won't work. If this deck can be considered good against combo or control which means that this deck will not die early on, then i don't see a problem. The longer the game goes the harder it gets to beat this kind of decks.

Children, canonist, aven, true believer, teeg are 5 cards that will be solid against combo. Will it be enough? I didn't say that! Combo will deal with them easily if they are the only disruption on the table. But what they will do is buy you time to tutor for another hoser and another and another and suddenly their are multiple on the table and they can't seem to find a route to victory any time soon which spells good game. I had this scenario a zillion times now, i know how it works. Rebuild is strong against canonist but not if their is a believer and a safekeeper as well.

Remember if you decide to test the list, don't play like ordinary fish would unless the situation calls for it. You really want to get your mana/acceleration going and sit back to react. This doesn't mean you can relax but the idea is to sneak in the tutors when you see the chance and get the RIGHT card in the RIGHT situation. It is a hard deck to play i agree. And also the creatures i picked can be altered, but the engine and the approach is sound imo.

[Guli]

All to some testings with a couple friends and also online testing/discussing I had the chance to see the idea in action. I must say this egg is a hard one to crack. But oh damn the engine is so lovely. I thought I was going to be too slow with so many things to do. I want to set up mana, tutor and then cast or vial and keep pressure all at the same time. In theory all that sound hard to pull off but it is not that much you are pulling of at all.

Answering Tinker with tutors myself was very successful. Mainly because you don't know what they will Tinker for and you want to respond with something that deals with tinker and quickly.

Tutor/Thornweald Archer > Inkwell Leviathan (Archer is also Key against aggro when the games goes longer were you go for the Oath of ghouls set up)
Tutor/Qasali Pridemage > Platinum Angel (Qasali Pridemage is also my bullet for Oath, Shop and Vault)
Tutor/Goldmeadow Harrier > Darksteel Colossus (Goldmeadow Harrier is not that great but I can't find any other creature that can deal with Colossus)

I figured to use Goldmeadow Harrier instead of Whipcorder because it is cheaper and this is important when you face a very early all in Tinker. Also easier to hard cast which brings me to the next topic. I removed all creatures with dual white/black from the list to make things smoother.

True Believer is a very nice card and his effect is also strong with vials. But I don't really need him. I can use him don't get me wrong, he is an asset to the squad. But like a good writer who is editing his article by eliminating unnecessary (but maybe cute) phrases. Sticking to the point is important. I wanted to have an answer to welder so I added Withered Wretch thinking he would be nice in other matches as well. But again the dual black can cause problems without vials. I also liked the synergy with Oath of ghouls. So I started thinking. What can I use to get rid of welder and maybe even confidants a,d other aggro. First I thought of Icatian Javelineers but he was a bit too ... small and his effect doesn't stick around. I remembered Plagued Rusalka and I was convinced again. He is cheap, has synergy with Oath of Ghouls, gets the job done against welders (and confidants), but he is also a very nice way to pitch 'useless creatures'. So I am working in more cards that deal with the issue of silver bullets (cards that are specific for one matchup but don't do nearly as much in other matchups, fe Canonist/Jailer).

I also removed the Street Wraiths. I never used the Worldly/Wraith trick. I added a couple more lands in their place to compensate.

I was saying black for confidant, green for tarm and white for canonist. Well I will rephrase that.

Black for Confidant with the idea of simply DRAW like any control deck wants. While turn 1 confi is nice in fish with Force/daze in here it is less important.
Green for Noble Hierarch because he gives you the colors and keeps you alive against wastelands and adds power to the aggro match up.
White for Aven Mindcensor for the reasons below, read on ...

I learned that Aven should not be a tutor target because of 2 reasons. One, he is 3 mana which is not the ideal setup. And two, Aven can already be sneaked in instantly. So when you leave mana open with this deck with vial/hierarch on the table you have tutors and aven in your hand. This way you can either cast your aven in response, or tutor for something you need. And Aven is very effective against control/combo as well. Canonist is the silver bullet that forces them to find an answer and aven protects canonist. So the conclusion is that Aven will not tutored, unless you need him, and his count will go up to make give him a consistent role.

Black is in the deck for draw, dredge hate, tutors and little bit of anti aggro (Plagued Rusalka is also anti dredge). This is by far enough splash for black if you don't want to put too much stress on the mana base. Remember if you add a creature you also RELY on it when the situation arises. So adding Wretch means you will tutor for it against welders and when you don't have the mana you have a serious problem. Plagued Rusalka is the better choice here.

I removed the last post with a list and redirected it to this post to keep things structured:

TVC (Tutor Vial Control)


 Mana and acceleration
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Plains
    4 Savannah
    3 Bayou
    1 Forest
    3 Scrubland
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
   
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 AEther Vial

 Creatures

    3 Dark Confidant
    3 Tarmogoyf
    3 Aven Mindcensor

    1 Plagued Rusalka
    1 Goldmeadow Harrier   
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Children of Korlis

    1 Vexing Shusher
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Ethersworn Canonist

    1 Yixlid Jailer
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Thornweald Archer


 Engine and support

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    4 Worldly Tutor
    4 Eladamri's Call

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Survival of the Fittest
    1 Oath of Ghouls


 Sideboard

3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Viridian Zealot
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
3 Diabolic Edict

Feedback welcome!

[madmanmike25]

We played 3 games yesterday and except for 1 disparaging comment ("I bet your deck does shit in the meta") it was a pleasant experience.  A few notes:

Noble Heirarch turned the lone Gaddock Teeg into a 5/5, there being 3 heirarchs in play(im sure thats rare).  With that exception, I'm still not convinced that Heirarch>BoP.  Early Confidants are huge, it really slowed down my wastelock on you since you were able to draw into enough mana sources to keep you going a bit longer.  I fail to see how the B mana potential is weaker than debating on whether to only attack with 1 creature to get that extra +1/+1.

Fatties.  Why only 3 Tarms?  So people know, I rocked a multi-colored aggro deck sporting 4 Master of Etherium(ill end up posting list soon) and that guy really rocked your deck.  You had to trade 2 of yours for 1 of my juggs as well.  Of course thats the standard for Fish(type)decks, they cannot handle a big boy.  For the record I never saw a Tarmogoyf when we played.  I don't have time to read up on previous results of yours but have you considered Drake, Sower or any other type of creatures that can steal from opponents?

I really liked your use of the tutors, especially with vial in play, great tempo.  Vial seems great for this deck as game 1 I set CotV@0 and it did nothing(for the record I usually set it at 0 when I'm on the play and I dont know what I'm up against.  CotV@1/2 is trouble time, but it depends on if Vial is in place beforehand.

I won 2 out of 3 games with no SB'ing due to some awesome topdecks.  Thanks btw, I didn't have a sb yet and you kept it fair by not changing your deck either.

good luck, seems like a fun deck in a meta without 4 brainstorms.

Mike

p.s. Im rusty, since I haven't played mtg in a while.