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Author Topic: [Free Article] Alara Reborn in Vintage  (Read 6460 times)
Webster
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« on: April 29, 2009, 01:05:46 am »

In this article I go over some of the more interesting cards Alara Reborn has to offer and explain their merrits.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-alara-reborn-in-vintage/
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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 02:01:32 am »

Another good article! I am very surprised to see many of the cards in the tier 3 section.  I mean most of them should not really show up on the radar to begin with, but I guess you have to write about some thing, right?

Interesting question: If you were to build a deck with Lorescale Coatl, what would it look like?  Would it be a grow-esk style build or more fish like disruption to back up your dude plan? 
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 02:28:13 am »

Good review!

But who did ever think about hardcasting Glassdust Hulk/Architects of Will or playing them as robots in Welder/Workshop decks. The point, why it is at least interesting to think about these cards, was definately something else (PITCHING), while nobody honestly advocates these as überbroken cards. I also think that Sen Trip has more potential then you give it.
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 10:02:11 am »

Quote
The Time Vault and Voltaic Key combination is disrupted somewhat by having a Pridemage in play and mana untapped to use it.

Disrupted Somewhat?  You mean like Suppression Field?  That would be a "disrupted somewhat" interaction.   The Vault/Key interaction is stopped entirely as long as a Pridemage is in play and a mana is available, just as if Pridemage were a Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primoridium.  And I can attest from playing GR beatz that a sitting Seal of Primoridum functsion in that way.  That doesn't mean that they can't recur the Time Vault, but it is simply inaccurate to say that it is "disrupted somewhat."  It is stopped, period.   

When you say:
Quote
The disenchant ability that Qasali Pridemage has isn’t terribly relevant to the field.
   That can't possibly be accurate.   When Time Vault makes up no less than a third of top 8s, with Oath, Painter and Workshop decks constituting at least another 15%, Qasali Pridemage's disenchant ability is VERY relevant to the "field."   

***

In my set review, I put Coatl into a Mystic Remora deck, and since you have been writing about Remora recently, I was hoping to see your thoughts on Coalt in a Remora shell.    I suspect that you think he should not replace Tog in there; I think that he might, and I was wondering what your thoughts on that might be. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:11:53 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 12:56:23 pm »

I am very surprised to see many of the cards in the tier 3 section. I mean most of them should not really show up on the radar to begin with, but I guess you have to write about some thing, right?
You're right.
Some cards deserved being talked about even if I don't like them because other people have been discussing them.
Others cards are undercosted to the point where they should be talked about even if they're not quite good enough.

Interesting question: If you were to build a deck with Lorescale Coatl, what would it look like?  Would it be a grow-esk style build or more fish like disruption to back up your dude plan?
Coatl is versatile enough to fit into most shells.
I haven't tried making any lists yet.
For now, I can only say that I'll get back to you on this.


But who did ever think about hardcasting Glassdust Hulk/Architects of Will or playing them as robots in Welder/Workshop decks. The point, why it is at least interesting to think about these cards, was definately something else (PITCHING), while nobody honestly advocates these as überbroken cards.
Being blue doesn't really hold much weight when I look at a card like this.
Don't take that statement out of context. Blue is the best color blah blah blah. I know that.
The point is that I want my cards to serve a specific purpose.

Saying something like, "Glassdust Hulk is the new Inkwell Leviathan. It's an artifact, blue, and kills your opponent." isn't a comparison that I'll take seriously.
Inkwell Leviathan has a very specific use and incredible characteristics for its purpose.

Glassdust Hulk isn't spectacular in any specific regard except having multiple non-stellar applications.
As a beater, he's bad.
As a 'draw engine', he's bad.

The first thing that comes to mind when I think of Glassdust Hulk is "Jack of all trades; master of none".

I also think that Sen Trip has more potential then you give it.
Sen Triplets feels like a double-or-nothing card with a variable reward.
What that means is:
You're going to incredible lengths to put this card into play either by casting it or using something else to cheat it into play ([Bazaar/Thirst]+Welder, Tinker, Show and Tell, Oath of Druids).
There is no immediate reward to having Sen Triplets in play.

If something other than Goblin Welder was used to get Sen Triplets into play, you're mana is going to be tied up.
If Goblin Welder was used to get this into play, why didn't you just use Mindslaver instead?

If Sen Triplets' ability resolves, what deck do you want to be playing against for its ability to be the most devastating?
Is it TPS, [some other storm combo deck], Tezzeret, [some other drain deck], stax, workshop aggro, oath, dredge, fish, other?
How will the average turn against that matchup play out if Sen Triplets' ability resolves?

I don't see the turns playing out as gloriously as it seems you think they will.


Quote
The Time Vault and Voltaic Key combination is disrupted somewhat by having a Pridemage in play and mana untapped to use it.

Disrupted Somewhat?  You mean like Suppression Field?  That would be a "disrupted somewhat" interaction.   The Vault/Key interaction is stopped entirely as long as a Pridemage is in play and a mana is available, just as if Pridemage were a Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primoridium.  And I can attest from playing GR beatz that a sitting Seal of Primoridum functsion in that way.  That doesn't mean that they can't recur the Time Vault, but it is simply inaccurate to say that it is "disrupted somewhat."  It is stopped, period.
Using 'somewhat' shouldn't have been in there.
I'll edit my article more carefully next time.

When you say:
Quote
The disenchant ability that Qasali Pridemage has isn’t terribly relevant to the field.
   That can't possibly be accurate.   When Time Vault makes up no less than a third of top 8s, with Oath, Painter and Workshop decks constituting at least another 15%, Qasali Pridemage's disenchant ability is VERY relevant to the "field."
How often is a Vault/Key deck going to kill you (the Pridemage-attack-you.dec) with Vault/key versus Tinker or chaining Thirsts plus restricted cards?
If a deck is going to approach the 'Pridemage matchup' in a way that doesn't lean on Vault/Key, then the value of Pridemage decreases.
True, it's still there, but not as useful.

In my set review, I put Coatl into a Mystic Remora deck, and since you have been writing about Remora recently, I was hoping to see your thoughts on Coalt in a Remora shell. I suspect that you think he should not replace Tog in there; I think that he might, and I was wondering what your thoughts on that might be.
Having Coatl in a Remora deck is fine.

Splashing a third color isn't really a problem.
There's a lot of room to work with regarding the mana base.
The basic swamp would change back to LoA again.
A sample manabase would look something like this: 1 Library of Alexandria, 3 Flooded Strand, 3 Polluted Delta, 3 Underground Sea, 3 Tropical Island, 3 Island.

There are some obvious changes in the way the deck would need to be played.
If you have Coatl in your deck, you're going to want to resolve it sooner than you'd want to resolve a Tog.

It's all relative to your metagame I suppose.
If the matchups where you (Remora) want to be more aggresive outweigh the opposite, then I'd say Coatl is better.

With the way I play Remora, all I care about it drawing cards until I find Vault/Key.
After that, it doesn't matter what I kill them with.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 01:19:46 pm »


When you say:
Quote
The disenchant ability that Qasali Pridemage has isn’t terribly relevant to the field.
   That can't possibly be accurate.   When Time Vault makes up no less than a third of top 8s, with Oath, Painter and Workshop decks constituting at least another 15%, Qasali Pridemage's disenchant ability is VERY relevant to the "field."
How often is a Vault/Key deck going to kill you (the Pridemage-attack-you.dec) with Vault/key versus Tinker or chaining Thirsts plus restricted cards?
If a deck is going to approach the 'Pridemage matchup' in a way that doesn't lean on Vault/Key, then the value of Pridemage decreases.
True, it's still there, but not as useful.


I don't think your reasoning makes sense here.  In a way, it assumes what it concludes.  The very reason that the Key/Vault decks win less with Key/Vault and more with Tinker (or to use your language, the reason that a deck might not 'lean on Vault/Key') is because of either the presence of threat of Pridemage, and cards similar to it.   Specifically, the presence of Pridemage in play will divert the opponent into other lines of play.  We can draw up all sorts of situations where Time Vault is the optimal and most efficient route to victory.  But the presence of Pridemage will steer them out of that play and more likely into a play using Tinker.   That doesn't mean that Pridemage wasn't relevant (to use your term) or even effective.  It just means that there is another line of play that you have to address.

It's the same concept as Null Rod.   Decks with Null Rod run Null Rod knowing full well that it will likely push the Drain pilot into a "plan B' situation.   That doesn't mean that Null Rod hasn't served its purpose.   It has.  It has prevented them from comboing out using Time Vault, while being disruptive at the same time. 

In the RG Beatz deck I designed in December, much of the deck was designed to attack both strategies.   It used Null Rod and Seal of Primoridum to cut off Time Vault as a win condition, and then ran 4 Stingscourger and 4 Pyroblast to help stop Tinker for Darksteel Colossus.    Imagine that the deck just ran Stingscourger and Pyroblast.  Then you might say, well the deck could just lean on Time Vault to win in that matchup.    And that would be true, but that would miss the mark.  It would fail to recognize why that was the case. 

When such a huge proportion of the field uses Artifacts or Enchantments are primary win conditions, Pridemage is *extremely* relevant against the field.  In fact, it's hard to imagine a plausible Vintage field where Pridemage is less strategically relevant against the field.   The fact that many of these decks have backup conditions does not change this.  It just means that you need plans for those as well.   Without [Insert card/Pridemage], you would multiply your opponents avenues to victory, and the ease and probability with which they can achieve victory. 
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 02:09:17 pm »

When such a huge proportion of the field uses Artifacts or Enchantments are primary win conditions, Pridemage is *extremely* relevant against the field.  In fact, it's hard to imagine a plausible Vintage field where Pridemage is less strategically relevant against the field.   The fact that many of these decks have backup conditions does not change this.  It just means that you need plans for those as well.   Without [Insert card/Pridemage], you would multiply your opponents avenues to victory, and the ease and probability with which they can achieve victory. 

Accurate and well stated. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 10:05:00 pm »

Lorescale and Pridemage seem to be the definite standouts for the set, and as always, I am glad to see playable Vintage cards that are not rares.  Makes it a lot easier to people like me to acquire them. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 11:22:05 pm »

Cool, new T1 articles. I'm worried about what Lorescale Coatl will do to my little fishies. It might be worth trying Qasali Pridemage out in a fish deck. The guys that are trying to make their "Noble Fish" decks better should be looking at this guy probably. More exalted to stack for their selkies. I probably won't use it in anything, but it's very tempting. If only it were blue!

Also, it seems like Smmenen is being hyper-critical of the author while referencing his own articles. Sorta shady.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 01:35:46 am »

I think what Web was trying to say about Pridemage and the Fish matchup is that Vault-Key isn't a reliable plan anyway. My gameplan against them is not very dependent on Vault-Key at all; even before Pridemage there was Null Rod. The way I have historically beaten Fish is card draw, Tinker, and removal. The Remora lists I used in the couple tournaments I played always beat fish with Sower of Temptation, Psychatog, Inkwell, and Smother. I leave Vault-Key in, but it certainly isn't very important. Trying to win through a route that they shut down essentially for free with Null Rod (and now Pridemage) isn't a very good plan, and you are much better off making them fight through a bunch of Sowers and whatnot. They still have to respect your combo capability, so they can't cut all the Vault disruption, but by making it your secondary plan you are shifting the fight to a battlefield where I think you have a much more solid footing.

 It isn't that Pridemage and Rod force you to a "Plan B", I was already on that plan and Vault-Key was my plan B.
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 07:32:53 am »

very nice article. I have to agree about every card, except I would have liked to see you talk about Glassdust Hulk in bomberman. If any deck would use it, it would be that deck. It plays with the colors, it can use the cycle well, and this and salvagers in play you can actually make in a 20/21 instantly and have a 2nd win condition if you cannot use the infinite mana combo. I know its not the best card, but I do think its less worse in bonberman combared to workshop.
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 08:50:20 am »

Thanks mate Smile

I really liked your article because of:

1. It's free! Smile
2. You have done all the work for me. Now I don't need to study the set over and over again. Just pick up the staples for my collection.
3. I liked the comparisons to goyf, dryad and tog.

Off-topic: Are you somehow related to the famous golfer?
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2009, 11:02:33 am »

very nice article. I have to agree about every card, except I would have liked to see you talk about Glassdust Hulk in bomberman. If any deck would use it, it would be that deck. It plays with the colors, it can use the cycle well, and this and salvagers in play you can actually make in a 20/21 instantly and have a 2nd win condition if you cannot use the infinite mana combo. I know its not the best card, but I do think its less worse in bonberman combared to workshop.
Regarding Glassdust Hulk in Bomberman:

When I wrote the review, I had forgotten about people talking about Bomberman.
Even then, I would not have talked much about Glassdust Hulk and its applications in the deck.
I don't think the importance of Glassdust Hulk's role warrents a slot in the deck.

The problem I see with Bomberman is that it doesn't have enough spells that do something important in many matchups.
It runs the most creatures in any Mana Drain archetype, which lowers the power level of the deck.
Glassdust Hulk adds to the problem by being useful only when you are going to win.

Glassdust Hulk can be really good on the turn that you go off because it kills the opponent.
However, there are already many other cards that advance you to the point of being able to go off better than Glassdust Hulk.
Trinket Mage gets either missing artifact of the combo.
Aether Spellbomb-
- can cycle if you're missing too many cards.
- can bounce Trinket Mage which can then get Black Lotus.
- can draw your deck the turn you go off.
- can bounce a scary monster so you don't die.

Glassdust Hulk-
- doesn't interact with Trinket Mage.
- doesn't tutor for any combo piece.
- doesn't function like Gift's Ungiven (or some other card) which would be in it's place in the decklist.


Off-topic: Are you somehow related to the famous golfer?
No.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 12:53:21 pm »

I think that Putrid Leech deserves more credit as an aggro creature.  I'm not suggesting that he will be rampantly played, because he is almost strictly worse than Tarmogoyf, but with the right color structure I think he could be Goyfs 5-8. 

In Suicide, I think he might actually be better than Nantuko Shade.  The only foreseeable issue is trying to use Necro/Bargain/Confidant alongside him, which could be a liability.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think Sen Triplets is strictly worse than Mindslaver.  It seems to me that they are different enough that it is hard to compare them directly, but if I had to, my first two thoughts would be: 1. the {4} activation cost of Slaver is sometimes relevant, especially with a turn 2 or 3 weld; 2. the fact that it is shut off by Null Rod.  Also, with Triplets you should really only need to steal a few spells early on to upturn the game in your favor.

As for Moxen, I was thinking I might run a couple extra Hurkyll's Recalls if I played this guy  Very Happy

Great article though.  It was a good read, and I agree with pretty much everything else.
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2009, 05:20:53 pm »


Also, it seems like Smmenen is being hyper-critical of the author while referencing his own articles. Sorta shady.

My criticisms were matters of substance, not semantics.   While I highlighted one choice quote to make my point, I was speaking also to a larger backdrop in which David was presenting his analysis.   David lists three reasons why he thinks that Pridemage isn't that useful, and then he presents one paragraph where he lists the positives.  And he does so with the half-hearted caveat "To be fair..."  Then, it's only in his final sentence of five paragraph analysis that he even mentions Time Vault, and then does so somewhat dismissively. When I said that this statement was inaccurate, I was not only speaking to the specifics of the statement itself (which mirror, I believe how he frames/presents the issue), but also the framing itself, in which he suggests through presentation as well as what he says that he doesn't think that Pridemage's disenchant ability is particularly important.   In my view, Pridemage's interaction with Time Vault is clearly the most important interaction it has.  The statement I quoted was the most direct way to call attention to this area of disagreement.  Although David responded to it as if it was merely a semantic issue with his particular word choice, I was expressing my disagreement with his overall assessment. 

If I wanted to be hyper-critical, I would have pointed out that the first point he makes criticizing Pridemage is essentially wrong as it is written.  It works fine, it just doesn't matter very much.   That would be a "hyper-critical" semantical criticism. 

In any case, let me be crystal clear, in case my responses are viewed in a merely as rivalrous criticism:

I think it's awesome that David is writing Vintage articles, and I enjoy reading what he has to say.   David has written nice pieces that are clearly written, cogent, strategically insightful, and will draw bring more people into the format.  Keep up the good work!

« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:30:33 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 05:43:58 am »

First Short and blunt:

Qasali Pridemage IS an answer to a great deal of problems for aggro control. He is very RELEVANT.


1) Tezz/Vault/Key
2) Oath of Druids, a seal that deals damage, what more do you want vs oath man?
3) Taking into account that we also run Noble Hierarch alongside Qasali, the Shop match up improves.
4) Splash damage against ichorid
5) Exalted works very well with Aven Mindcensor or whatever situation were you can't punch through with small bodies but you can use evasive or hard to block creatures like 'Goyf (or something with deathtouch Wink )

Further on Exalted, it is important early game against control/combo as well were you are attacking with your first bears. That 1 extra damage is very critical. And when exalted becomes 'weak' then that means you have more than 2 creatures on the board and it is passed early game. I like the sound of that as a fish player.

More is, against aggro, exalted is a tactical weapon as well in combat. It never becomes weak in the mirror. It gives you more options.

Guli
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 05:57:58 am by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2009, 02:32:21 pm »

Also, Exalted makes your blocking Goyf a lot better than their attacking Goyf.

EDIT: These need to be reversed.
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2009, 02:45:45 pm »

In all honesty, Alara Reborn is really not that relevant at all to vintage. This is by far the worst set in the last 3 years for Vintage
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2009, 02:51:31 pm »

I don't understand the fuss about Qasali Pridemage. Viridian Zealot isn't played either and thats not because it doesn't have exalted, nor because it costs G more to activate, nor because its GG instead of GW
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2009, 03:19:49 pm »

On the contrary, I think those are all very good reasons not to play a card, particularly these two:
1) GG to cast
2) GGG1 to get an effect

The -1 toughness may not be relevant at this particular moment in Vintage, but I'm sure it will be.
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2009, 06:20:06 pm »

Yes it is. It is very relevant. Vintage is not some holy city that denies the use of cards like Qasali Pridemage. It is a format. In all my testings with Qasali I compaired it with the Viridian zealot. Every time i casted it or vialed it in I checked the board situation and said "what if this was a zealot". The difference is HUGE and decided the outcome of the game 180 degrees.

There is no 'fuss' at all. People with experience are saying that the card is valid and will see play. Maybe not right NOW but the meta will change. I am not saying that Qasali will change the meta but he will be utilized during the change.

There is a big difference between  {G} {G} and  {G} {W} casting cost.
There is a big difference between  {G} {1} and  {1} activation cost.
Exalted matters I explained when and why in short read up.

Quote
In all honesty, Alara Reborn is really not that relevant at all to vintage. This is by far the worst set in the last 3 years for Vintage
This might be true, and Qasali is not something 'BIG' I agree.
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2009, 11:02:54 pm »

Also, Exalted makes your blocking Goyf a lot better than their attacking Goyf.
Exhalted only works with attacking.
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 11:48:03 pm »

Thanks! Good catch. I knew that but reversed the order in typing.
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2009, 09:29:25 am »

The real true power of Quasali Pridemage in fih like decks, being GW ou Ugw hierarch/selkie, is that it solves one of the worst matchup (if not the worst) of the deck : Oath, without playing some subpar cards such as seal of primordium/cleasing. It's also strong against painter's Servant.
Being able to shut down Grinstone and time vault isn't that important, as Luis said, your main plan against those decks is tinker, they allready have null rod to deal with those strategies.
the exaltation is a really interesting bonus when the ability isn't revelant, both to win goyf mirrors, and lower the clock.
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