Is this prize support fair?

[TD]

As a player, If you entered an event for $20 to compete against 35-40 other players would you consider this prize support fair?
1st- Unlimited Time Vault.
2nd- 1x English Mana Drain.
3rd- Windswept Heath, Bloodstained Mire, Wooded Foothills, Flooded Strand.
4th- Windswept Heath, Bloodstained Mire, Wooded Foothills, Flooded Strand.

[Yare]

Looks to be about a 50% payout since value of the cards being paid out is around $350 and store is taking in $700 gross at the least (more if there are more players). This is below the "fair" threshold. I personally think 75% payout is about the lower limit of fair to the players, though I think 85% is the "definitely acceptable" threshold.

Obviously, others are free to post their own impressions, but that's how I see it.

[Apollyon]

I'd rather see a 15 dollar entry and add support to the top 12.

So it might look something like this:
1- Vault
2- Drain
3/4- 4 fetches
5-8- 2 fetches
9-12- a fetch

[MadManiac21]

We;ve gone over this alot before - usually ending in large arguments between myself and the ELD/Myriad camp.

That payout is an absolute sham for 700$ in entry fees. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is retarded.

In an ideal world, the amount paid back should = all the entre fees.

In a more realistic world, a magic equivalent "rake" of keeping 5-10% of entrance fees is as high as it should go. No online/live gambling establishment runs a higher rake then this, it shouldn't be any different for another competitive card game if you're trying to run a business out of it. That's all there is too it.

[ELD]

Both Myriad and myself put 100% of the entry fees into the prize pool.  We both feel this is the best way to run Vintage events.  The only unreasonable disagreement I've encountered on this issue has been from amateurs who don't know the retail value of cards, or from people who don't actually run events.  For a professional TO, running professional quality events, there's no reason that the profit margin between cost and retail would not be enough to make the events sustainable indefinitely.  Sure, the profit margins for Vintage events are total garbage compared to every other format, but the TO's who support it do it out of love for the format.  If a TO is wondering what they should be valuing their cards at, Starcitygames.com and Strikezoneonline.com are two reputable, reliable industry leaders who move a ton of cardboard.  If your taking in more than these companies would sell your prizes at, then you're taking a rake that many players will object to. 

Ultimately though, this is just one persons opinion.  The real test is which events people decide to support, and how faithfully.  A TO can make a killing when they have zero competition, and leave everyone unhappy.  In the long run, though, a TO needs to give the players what they want to keep the communities support. 

While finals week took a huge chunk out of attendance for my event this Saturday, I made sure the players had some serious prizes to play for.  With only 14 players at $25 a piece, I put up a Mox Pearl for first, and the choice between a signed Underground Sea, UL Tropical Island, CE Mox Emerald or Alpha Sol Ring for 2nd.  The feedback was good, and players know that when we get the larger summer crowds, the prize pools are going to get huge. 

[Gaagooch]

It seems like every month a new argument about someone's lackluster prize support keeps comming up.  I mean basically this is how I feel these situations should be handled.  You don't show up to the tournament.  It really is that simple, you don't have to post anything anywhere calling anyone out.  I split a vintage tournament in the new england region, I will not be specific because it is irrelevent to my point, and my cash take home for such was $66.  I have never attended another tournament, hosted by this person because of such.  Is this saying I never will again?  Who knows, the point is when you see a prize support that is strictly not worth it, just don't go, if others want to go to play and have fun, don't ruin it for them.  You can't expect every tournament planned to have waterbury like prize scales.  Either show up or don't, there is no reason to make polls about the prize structure.  If someone really wants to attend that tournament and play in it, then more power to them.  If you don't, stay home.  The T.O. will see that this event failed in comparison of his last event and then has two choices, run another event like this one, or run it the way the successful ones were run.  Yes, I agree completely that his prize support sucks, and I would not attend based on such prizes, but he is still trying to help the vintage community by holding a tournament.  The community itself has fallen off from what it was just a few years ago, and I would love to see it come back to what it was, but with everyone complaining about which t.o. they don't like, or this prize structure that sucks it may never get back there.

[mike_bergeron]

Some of the comments here make me worry about vintage a lot more than the restriction debate threads.  My opinion is that it should be fair for a TO to take a slice of the pie home for running a 8-10 hour event, provide the capital for prizes (even if you don't like them) and deal with the insanity that is known as vintage players.  How much is that slice? I think it is a fair debate, but a lot more valuable if you do not immediately point at certain people and make them defensive.  I think we can do better than that. 

So what is 8-10 hours worth to you?  What is a suitable environment worth to you?  What is professionalism worth to you?

[MadManiac21]

So what is 8-10 hours worth to you?  What is a suitable environment worth to you?  What is professionalism worth to you?

5-10% rake. Not a preset number imo. If you feel like putting a cap on your take - say once you hit 100+ at $30 capping yourself at $300 for the day - would be even better.

[mike_bergeron]

So what is 8-10 hours worth to you?  What is a suitable environment worth to you?  What is professionalism worth to you?

5-10% rake. Not a preset number imo. If you feel like putting a cap on your take - say once you hit 100+ at $30 capping yourself at $300 for the day - would be even better.

Thanks for responding, I think it makes a lot of sense what you are proposing.  I guess my question is this: if you run a $20 tourney, 21 players show up, and you put in 8 hours of solid tourney work, judging, admin, etc.  Is $42.00 even worth it for that? My honest answer is no way.  That is basically minimum wage. ($5.25/hr)  My answer of course does not include sales/ other factors, which I understand, but really, running a tournament at minimum wage is just bad.  My issue is that the store would still get sales if the tourney was not happening....and sometimes a tourney actually hinders sales at locations.  Plus, how much stuff can you sell when the majority of the population uses online vendors to purchase singles and boxes.   

Everyone I know who runs vintage is basically doing it for their own personal affection for the format.  The other formats are much more profitable in terms of sales and trades.   

[MadManiac21]

So what is 8-10 hours worth to you?  What is a suitable environment worth to you?  What is professionalism worth to you?

5-10% rake. Not a preset number imo. If you feel like putting a cap on your take - say once you hit 100+ at $30 capping yourself at $300 for the day - would be even better.

Thanks for responding, I think it makes a lot of sense what you are proposing.  I guess my question is this: if you run a $20 tourney, 21 players show up, and you put in 8 hours of solid tourney work, judging, admin, etc.  Is $42.00 even worth it for that? My honest answer is no way.  That is basically minimum wage. ($5.25/hr)  My answer of course does not include sales/ other factors, which I understand, but really, running a tournament at minimum wage is just bad.  My issue is that the store would still get sales if the tourney was not happening....and sometimes a tourney actually hinders sales at locations.  Plus, how much stuff can you sell when the majority of the population uses online vendors to purchase singles and boxes.   

Everyone I know who runs vintage is basically doing it for their own personal affection for the format.  The other formats are much more profitable in terms of sales and trades.   

That's life sometimes - all about economies from scale. You cannot attempt to squeeze out a greater profit when your number of entrants is so low, because of the huge dissonance in the prize pool. The more people you have, the easier that becomes - and yes, you should be willing to deal with making minimum wage for a tournament or two. Why? Because it builds you credit among your customers - they'll keep coming back and playing since they know you're not f*cking them over, and more people will start coming because you offer a greater prize pool.

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

[LordHomerCat]

Remember that in addition to the 5-10%, you also sold around $400 worth of cards that day in terms of prizes.  Everyone paid entries, and you sold a mox plus some dual lands or whatever which were just going to sit on your store shelf for months otherwise.  Plus singles, soda, snacks, etc., whatever else people picked up on the day.  Even at no rake, as a store owner, you got 25 people to show up at your store and spend $25 each on cards which you purchased for quite a bit less than you get to 'sell' them for, plus the other things they all but, and all it costs you is being at your store all day (which you would do anyway) and a little bit of extra effort to type up pairings.  All in all, it probably still turns out to be a relatively profitable day selling magic cards.

[LordHomerCat]

Remember that in addition to the 5-10%, you also sold around $400 worth of cards that day in terms of prizes.  Everyone paid entries, and you sold a mox plus some dual lands or whatever which were just going to sit on your store shelf for months otherwise.  Plus singles, soda, snacks, etc., whatever else people picked up on the day.  Even at no rake, as a store owner, you got 25 people to show up at your store and spend $25 each on cards which you purchased for quite a bit less than you get to 'sell' them for, plus the other things they all but, and all it costs you is being at your store all day (which you would do anyway) and a little bit of extra effort to type up pairings.  All in all, it probably still turns out to be a relatively profitable day selling magic cards.

To be fair, for private persons running an event I am willing to give more slack in taking a rake.  This is because they don't own a store so they don't get to sell packs and singles and such, and they likely paid a higher price for the prizes than a dealer would have.  Non-store-owners can take a slightly higher percent (IMO) to try and cover their costs because they miss out on a lot of the benefits a store would get from an event.

[mike_bergeron]

That's life sometimes - all about economies from scale. You cannot attempt to squeeze out a greater profit when your number of entrants is so low, because of the huge dissonance in the prize pool. The more people you have, the easier that becomes - and yes, you should be willing to deal with making minimum wage for a tournament or two. Why? Because it builds you credit among your customers - they'll keep coming back and playing since they know you're not f*cking them over, and more people will start coming because you offer a greater prize pool.

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

I understand what you are saying, but respectfully disagree with some of the ideas.  the fact is, you don't "just deal with" losing money for the day, or two days, or three.  you stop offering that service, and focus on services that make you money.  Minimum wage is not good enough, unless you are doing it to support the format, and that has always been an individual decision. 

We are mentioning all of the great things that stores get to sell to people, yet we don't care about the stores expense for the day.  How about rent, utilities, insurance, employee coverage, capital required to maintain a large singles collection....these factors outweigh the piddly dollars you get for selling sodas and candy.  Most players do not even support the store they play at either, which is even more of a joke.  Of course, when the stores are gone, we can throw our hands in the air and curse wizards for making a hobby that we can't play anymore. 

[mike_bergeron]

Remember that in addition to the 5-10%, you also sold around $400 worth of cards that day in terms of prizes.  Everyone paid entries, and you sold a mox plus some dual lands or whatever which were just going to sit on your store shelf for months otherwise.  Plus singles, soda, snacks, etc., whatever else people picked up on the day.  Even at no rake, as a store owner, you got 25 people to show up at your store and spend $25 each on cards which you purchased for quite a bit less than you get to 'sell' them for, plus the other things they all but, and all it costs you is being at your store all day (which you would do anyway) and a little bit of extra effort to type up pairings.  All in all, it probably still turns out to be a relatively profitable day selling magic cards.

To be fair, for private persons running an event I am willing to give more slack in taking a rake.  This is because they don't own a store so they don't get to sell packs and singles and such, and they likely paid a higher price for the prizes than a dealer would have.  Non-store-owners can take a slightly higher percent (IMO) to try and cover their costs because they miss out on a lot of the benefits a store would get from an event.

This should be the other way around.  Private persons have no operations expenses to worry about, and deal cards just like any one else does.  Store owners have expenses well above and beyond what other people do, and you should consider that as you play in their stores.  I will most likely get in trouble for this one, but magic players are a greedy bunch.  They want their hangout space, they want to be able to buy cards at huge discounts and rip people off in trades, and don't care about how the stores do.  When there is nowhere left to play, they complain about it.  Vintage is dying? No, people are just getting tired of dealing with assholes.

[MadManiac21]

That's life sometimes - all about economies from scale. You cannot attempt to squeeze out a greater profit when your number of entrants is so low, because of the huge dissonance in the prize pool. The more people you have, the easier that becomes - and yes, you should be willing to deal with making minimum wage for a tournament or two. Why? Because it builds you credit among your customers - they'll keep coming back and playing since they know you're not f*cking them over, and more people will start coming because you offer a greater prize pool.

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

I understand what you are saying, but respectfully disagree with some of the ideas.  the fact is, you don't "just deal with" losing money for the day, or two days, or three.  you stop offering that service, and focus on services that make you money.  Minimum wage is not good enough, unless you are doing it to support the format, and that has always been an individual decision. 

We are mentioning all of the great things that stores get to sell to people, yet we don't care about the stores expense for the day.  How about rent, utilities, insurance, employee coverage, capital required to maintain a large singles collection....these factors outweigh the piddly dollars you get for selling sodas and candy.  Most players do not even support the store they play at either, which is even more of a joke.  Of course, when the stores are gone, we can throw our hands in the air and curse wizards for making a hobby that we can't play anymore. 

Maybe you're missing something - it's never a LOSING MONEY DAY when you run a tournament where you give back 90-95% of the entrance fees as cards. Did you even read HomerCat's post?

If you're running a store - and yes (gasp!) you're going to be there anyway for the day - adding on an extra "minimum wage" to your day in ADDITION to 4-500$ of cards sold?

Lol, cmon guys, if store owners could run tournaments with such a structure every single day of the week, they would.

[LordHomerCat]

But the stores will be open anyway.  It's not like the owner is coming in on their day off to open up the store.  You still have to pay for all that stuff whether you have an event or not, and people are no less likely to walk in and buy comic books or whatever else on event weekends than they would be normally.  All of those costs will exist whether their is an event or not, so you can't just expect the event to pay for all of that stuff on the day any more than you would expect every customer who walks in to buy a comic book to pay a cover charge to cover those things.

Also, I give private organizers more leeway because they do have to pay for those other things.  If I decide to run an event, I don't own a store.  I don't have judges who already work for me.  I don't have singles to sell or sleeves or sodas or any of that stuff.  If I don't get lucky and find a store willing to help, I then have to actually pay for a venue (and unlike a store, I would not have been paying for it that day anyway).  Plus I probably pay a lot more for cards than a store (excepting people who are non-store dealers like Ben Carp) so I don't make much there either.  Obviously any free stuff the organizer can get will help a lot (be it venue or judges or whatever) in keeping their costs down, but it is a lot more justifiable for them to take a bigger rake to cover their own costs.  I don't want organizers losing money on events, whoever they are, because that's not a sustainable model.

[mike_bergeron]

That's life sometimes - all about economies from scale. You cannot attempt to squeeze out a greater profit when your number of entrants is so low, because of the huge dissonance in the prize pool. The more people you have, the easier that becomes - and yes, you should be willing to deal with making minimum wage for a tournament or two. Why? Because it builds you credit among your customers - they'll keep coming back and playing since they know you're not f*cking them over, and more people will start coming because you offer a greater prize pool.

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

I understand what you are saying, but respectfully disagree with some of the ideas.  the fact is, you don't "just deal with" losing money for the day, or two days, or three.  you stop offering that service, and focus on services that make you money.  Minimum wage is not good enough, unless you are doing it to support the format, and that has always been an individual decision. 

We are mentioning all of the great things that stores get to sell to people, yet we don't care about the stores expense for the day.  How about rent, utilities, insurance, employee coverage, capital required to maintain a large singles collection....these factors outweigh the piddly dollars you get for selling sodas and candy.  Most players do not even support the store they play at either, which is even more of a joke.  Of course, when the stores are gone, we can throw our hands in the air and curse wizards for making a hobby that we can't play anymore. 

Maybe you're missing something - it's never a LOSING MONEY DAY when you run a tournament where you give back 90-95% of the entrance fees as cards. Did you even read HomerCat's post?

If you're running a store - and yes (gasp!) you're going to be there anyway for the day - adding on an extra "minimum wage" to your day in ADDITION to 4-500$ of cards sold?

Lol, cmon guys, if store owners could run tournaments with such a structure every single day of the week, they would.

if you are going to be there for the day anyways, and can focus instead on selling goods to non magic players, you can make more money.  Not having magic players in your store is actually a benefit to operating a business, especially to the crowd who actually buys things.  If tournaments are so easy to run, why do some TO's stop doing it?  It seems like the easiest money making deal in the world according to these posters.  I think we can agree to disagree, but this whole idea that TO's are making enough to compensate for their time is troubling.  On one hand, you make fun of people who want a career in gaming that they can't make money, and that they should seek another career.  Then you complain about them making money by selling cards...as part of the tournament you just made fun of them for trying to make money on.  The lack of consistency in argument is troubling. 

LHC- good points.  however, most of the 'private' person tourneys run it themselves, at a mutually agreeable location and judge the tournament themselves also, reducing all those expenses greatly.  Maybe it is different where you are, I did not think of the difference in area TO's.  You compare the players to people just coming in off the street and paying a higher margin to cover store costs...isnt that the whole point?  I guess my issue is, they SHOULD be charging something for the use of the store, time, cards, etc.  Just like when customer X buys a comic book, they buy it above what was paid for it to pay for all the expenses in having such a service.  So they are the same- magic players should expect to pay for time and space just like when you buy something at another store.  Would you demand goods at cost from Home Depot? They would laugh at you. So why should magic players get the pass? 

[Matt]

From everything I've ever read about TOing, the tournament itself is essentially a loss leader to get people into your store, where they can buy singles, packs, sleeves, and food, all of which have decent profit margins (especially soda). I don't mind the TO taking a small rake (anywhere up to 10% is pretty reasonable) but if they're looking to turn a profit from the tournament directly, they're on a fool's errand.

[LordHomerCat]

I guess my issue is, they SHOULD be charging something for the use of the store, time, cards, etc.  Just like when customer X buys a comic book, they buy it above what was paid for it to pay for all the expenses in having such a service.  So they are the same- magic players should expect to pay for time and space just like when you buy something at another store.  Would you demand goods at cost from Home Depot? They would laugh at you. So why should magic players get the pass?

But that markup is made in terms of prize value; that is, they are basically selling something like a $300 mox to the players which they bought for a lot less.  Players are paying retail for the prizes, while the store gets them at a discount, just like Home Depot or anyone else.  That markup is in place already.  To further take a large rake on the prizes to pay for your electricity is not the same thing: think about if Home Depot charged me just to show up and walk around their store and not buy anything because I was enjoying their AC and taking up their employees' time asking them questions.  That is clearly not a reasonable policy, and yet you are advocating pretty much exactly that for the store (that they should be charging us extra just for showing up).  You have to be careful not to confuse these things, as one (markup on retail prices) is pretty much the way everything works in the world and is clearly an accepted model, while the other (a cover charge just to walk in the door) is not something that people accept from their retail outlets and is not something I would accept from a store I planned to attend.

[Suicideking]

I guess my issue is, they SHOULD be charging something for the use of the store, time, cards, etc.  Just like when customer X buys a comic book, they buy it above what was paid for it to pay for all the expenses in having such a service.  So they are the same- magic players should expect to pay for time and space just like when you buy something at another store.  Would you demand goods at cost from Home Depot? They would laugh at you. So why should magic players get the pass?

But that markup is made in terms of prize value; that is, they are basically selling something like a $300 mox to the players which they bought for a lot less.  Players are paying retail for the prizes, while the store gets them at a discount, just like Home Depot or anyone else.  That markup is in place already.  To further take a large rake on the prizes to pay for your electricity is not the same thing: think about if Home Depot charged me just to show up and walk around their store and not buy anything because I was enjoying their AC and taking up their employees' time asking them questions.  That is clearly not a reasonable policy, and yet you are advocating pretty much exactly that for the store (that they should be charging us extra just for showing up).  You have to be careful not to confuse these things, as one (markup on retail prices) is pretty much the way everything works in the world and is clearly an accepted model, while the other (a cover charge just to walk in the door) is not something that people accept from their retail outlets and is not something I would accept from a store I planned to attend.

I think Jimmy is right on here.  TOs sometimes take this stance that they should be rewarded for doing something for other people like running a store or tourney.  The truth is that they are in business for themselves and are looking to turn a profit.  They should be held to a similar standard you would hold any retail store too.  Im ok paying retail for cards, and these TOs should really look at the tournament as an opportunity to sell  $400-800 in cards as a higher price then they would get on EBAY and as exposure to their store.  I draft almost exclusively at one store because the owner is more then awesome to the players, and in return he has got hundreds of dollars of my money.

[mike_bergeron]

I guess my issue is, they SHOULD be charging something for the use of the store, time, cards, etc.  Just like when customer X buys a comic book, they buy it above what was paid for it to pay for all the expenses in having such a service.  So they are the same- magic players should expect to pay for time and space just like when you buy something at another store.  Would you demand goods at cost from Home Depot? They would laugh at you. So why should magic players get the pass?

But that markup is made in terms of prize value; that is, they are basically selling something like a $300 mox to the players which they bought for a lot less.  Players are paying retail for the prizes, while the store gets them at a discount, just like Home Depot or anyone else.  That markup is in place already.  To further take a large rake on the prizes to pay for your electricity is not the same thing: think about if Home Depot charged me just to show up and walk around their store and not buy anything because I was enjoying their AC and taking up their employees' time asking them questions.  That is clearly not a reasonable policy, and yet you are advocating pretty much exactly that for the store (that they should be charging us extra just for showing up).  You have to be careful not to confuse these things, as one (markup on retail prices) is pretty much the way everything works in the world and is clearly an accepted model, while the other (a cover charge just to walk in the door) is not something that people accept from their retail outlets and is not something I would accept from a store I planned to attend.

But this example directly flies right in the face of everyone in this thread saying they should only take in 5-10% of the total. We are talking about the total prize pool.  If you have 20 players at 20 dollars, you have a four hundred dollar prize pool.  MadManiac suggests a 5-10% rake, which means you should make about 20-40 bucks.  Does this still sound reasonable? If the mox is valued at 300, and a drain is valued at $100, but you bought them both for $200, should you give out more prizes until you are only making $20-40 bucks?

This is why this thread is confusing.  I am saying that the store should be able to make a profit on the tourney, and it should not be capped.  I am sorry if my position is cloudy, or confusing in any way- I started by asking what people thought the TO should make, and I got a straightforward answer- 5-10%.  No one refuted this amount except me, and I said it was unreasonable and unsustainable.  Madmaniac- were you saying the total 'rake' should be 5-10%, or 5-10% plus the cards?  I was arguing a total rake of 5-10% would be awful, including the sale of cards.  LHC- apologize for confusion, I thought you understood I knew card sales would give margin- but the discussion to me was "what should the TO bring home at the end of the day" as a profit margin.

[Godder]

A store ideally would make little to nothing on the entry fees, and would make the money by way of mark-up on the singles. How much of a mark-up depends on a number of factors, but the main sticking point seems to be the market value of the cards on offer and how that figure is obtained.

[Suicideking]

I think if a store wants a rake they should put it out in the open like a poker tournament.  Advetise it as a $18+$2 tournament where your $2 goes to the store and the rest goes into a prize pool.  This would leave no guessing as to how much the store is keeping.

[MadManiac21]

Madmaniac- were you saying the total 'rake' should be 5-10%, or 5-10% plus the cards?  I was arguing a total rake of 5-10% would be awful, including the sale of cards.

Plus cards. I don't expect the store to resell the mox/power they give as prizes at the retail/purchased value, but at what they are sold for - so in your example of 20 players at 20$ at pop, a mox+drain (valued at say 275 and 75, which leaves room for a >10% rake) is acceptable.

The problem I have is when you get 25 people at 25$ a head (so 500$) and people give out a mox and a drain, when they could easily throw in at least set of FoW as well.

I think if a store wants a rake they should put it out in the open like a poker tournament.  Advetise it as a $18+$2 tournament where your $2 goes to the store and the rest goes into a prize pool.  This would leave no guessing as to how much the store is keeping.

I'm all for this too - list them as 18+2 or 23+2, but not 20 or 25 if you're not putting it all back into the prize pool.

Here's a good example of the house "rake" as it scales to entrants: the current Steel City Extravaganza:

100 players < Guaranteed Full Power Nine with Time Twister given to the highest performing unpowered deck.
Or the option to 'sell' back at $500, $350, $350, $325, $300, $275, $275, $275, $150

80 players < Guaranteed Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Jet, Ruby, Emerald, Pearl, Time Twister, Mana Drain, Mana Drain
Or the option to 'sell' back at $350, $350, $325, $300, $275, $275, $150, $75, $75

60 players < Guaranteed Sapphire, Jet, Ruby, Emerald, Mana Drain, Mana Drain, Dual Land, Dual Land
Or the option to 'sell' back at $325, $300, $275, $275, $75, $75, $25, $25

40 players < Guaranteed Sapphire, Jet, Mana Drain, Mana Drain, Dual Land, Dual Land, Dual Land, Dual Land
Or the option to 'sell' back at $325, $300, $75, $75, $25, $25, $25, $25

20 players < Guaranteed Jet, Mana Drain, Dual Land, Dual Land, Dual Land, Dual Land, Force of Will, Force of Will
Or the option to 'sell' back at $300, $75, $25, $25, $25, $25, $20, $20

10 Players < Guaranteed Time Twister, Mana Drain
Or the option to 'sell' back at $150, $75

100+ players: $2800 equivalent in cash for $3000 in entrance fees. ~7% rake

Let's say they get 150 players though; what happens to the extra $1500?

80 Players: $2175 in cash prizes for $2400 in entrance fees. ~10% rake.

60 Players: $1375 in cash prizes for $1800 entrance fees. 24%(!!!) Rake.

40 Players: $875 in cash prizes for $1200 in entrance fees. 27%(!!!) Rake

20 Players: $515 in cash prizes for $600. ~14% Rake

10 Players:  $225 in cash prizes for $300. 25%(!!) Rake.

Am I the only one who looks at these numbers and goes "wtf?"

While it does say "I will be using a "based on participants" prize scale." it is clear from those basic numbers that something is off - in addition to not listing what will be done with monies above 100 entrants.

Personally, I would never go to a tournament structured as such. You're praying for between 80 and 100 players since it looks as if the HOUSE is keeping ALL THE EXTRA MONEY beyond 100. The fact is magic tournament organizers get away with this a lot - SCG is a perfect example - and it's pretty pathetic when compared with the regulated and competitive gambling/poker parallel.

[Smmenen]

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

What the hell? 

I certainly do not agree with this sentiment. 
  Magic Store owners have a right to make a reasonable rate of return on their capital, especially one that is competitive with other business ventures.   

The rate of return, frankly, is very store specific.   Some stores have much higher overhead than others, on account of Location if nothing else.   I don't think there should be a uniform % that should apply to everyone.   

To some extent, this is a self-correcting thing.   If a store gives away crappy prizes with dreadful prize support, then it will suffer as people refuse to attend.   A store can also make more money over time by providing good prize support.   

I think there is nothing wrong with a store owner taking a 10-25% take on entry fees, although I feel that 25% is probably close to the upper bound that most Vintage players would find acceptable, keeping in mind that "take" does not mean profit.   "Take" is gross revenue. 

[MadManiac21]

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

What the hell? 

I certainly do not agree with this sentiment. Magic Store owners have a right to make a reasonable rate of return on their capital, especially one that is competitive with other business ventures.   

The rate of return, frankly, is very store specific.   Some stores have much higher overhead than others, on account of Location if nothing else.   I don't think there should be a uniform % that should apply to everyone.   

To some extent, this is a self-correcting thing.   If a store gives away crappy prizes with dreadful prize support, then it will suffer as people refuse to attend.   A store can also make more money over time by providing good prize support.   

I think there is nothing wrong with a store owner taking a 10-25% take on entry fees, although I feel that 25% is probably close to the upper bound that most Vintage players would find acceptable, keeping in mind that "take" does not mean profit.   "Take" is gross revenue. 

Thank you for nit picking out one line Steve. I think I've followed up with a better breakdown of the "house rake" in the post right above yours.

As far as the RoR being store specific; understandable. Location costs do differ from store to store. But it's absurd when tournament organizers claim they "put all the entrance fees" back into the prizes when they clearly don't. I think publishing what your rake amount will be would do wonders.

Taking >10% on entrance fees alone IS hustling people playing a Hobby, Steve. This is in addition to the % that they're making on the difference between what they paid for the cards and their sell price - sometimes upwards of 30%. Expecting nothing less than a 40% Return on equity (!!) for one days work? Cmon now.

But this is all a moot point as long as magic players continue to take it when it comes to prize support in most cases. I do love capitalism, and fully support being able to do this - just don't lie about it to the players straight faced.

I'd also be interested to know of any singleton card store owners that took on this business venture as a "rapid wealth accumlation" project. Unlike people who get into M&A or become lawyers (because the money is good enough) but hate their jobs, I feel you have a very different type of person as a store owner.

We're also mixing and matching apples and oranges. There is a HUGE difference between a singleton card store owner running monthly events, and a large distributor such as SCG renting out a hall for a day once every three months. Very different fixed/variable costs which leads itself to very different business models/plans.

[Smmenen]

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

What the hell? 

I certainly do not agree with this sentiment. Magic Store owners have a right to make a reasonable rate of return on their capital, especially one that is competitive with other business ventures.   

The rate of return, frankly, is very store specific.   Some stores have much higher overhead than others, on account of Location if nothing else.   I don't think there should be a uniform % that should apply to everyone.   

To some extent, this is a self-correcting thing.   If a store gives away crappy prizes with dreadful prize support, then it will suffer as people refuse to attend.   A store can also make more money over time by providing good prize support.   

I think there is nothing wrong with a store owner taking a 10-25% take on entry fees, although I feel that 25% is probably close to the upper bound that most Vintage players would find acceptable, keeping in mind that "take" does not mean profit.   "Take" is gross revenue. 

Taking >10% on entrance fees alone IS hustling people playing a Hobby, Steve. This is in addition to the % that they're making on the difference between what they paid for the cards and their sell price - sometimes upwards of 30%. Expecting nothing less than a 40% Return on equity (!!) for one days work? Cmon now.

That's just ridiculous. 

All sorts of hobby entertainers price their goods/services at very high prices.   Get a good seat at a football game or a Yankees game.   Go to a local amusement park and see how much money they make per person.   

The idea that this is a 'hobby' and therefore exempt from the principles of business economics is ridiculous.   

Also, if you are Neutral Ground and paying thousands and thousands of dollars per month in rent, you certainly can expect to take a larger return.    You don't know what the cost structure of all of these business are.   Taking more than 10% of the entry fees could be very, very reasonable.   

[Webster]

I agree fully with what Jimmy and James had to say.

I'm also amazed at the number of people who don't understand and agree with what they're saying.

[MadManiac21]

If you want to get wealthy, try another career. Hustling people playing a hobby is lol.

What the hell? 

I certainly do not agree with this sentiment. Magic Store owners have a right to make a reasonable rate of return on their capital, especially one that is competitive with other business ventures.   

The rate of return, frankly, is very store specific.   Some stores have much higher overhead than others, on account of Location if nothing else.   I don't think there should be a uniform % that should apply to everyone.   

To some extent, this is a self-correcting thing.   If a store gives away crappy prizes with dreadful prize support, then it will suffer as people refuse to attend.   A store can also make more money over time by providing good prize support.   

I think there is nothing wrong with a store owner taking a 10-25% take on entry fees, although I feel that 25% is probably close to the upper bound that most Vintage players would find acceptable, keeping in mind that "take" does not mean profit.   "Take" is gross revenue. 

Taking >10% on entrance fees alone IS hustling people playing a Hobby, Steve. This is in addition to the % that they're making on the difference between what they paid for the cards and their sell price - sometimes upwards of 30%. Expecting nothing less than a 40% Return on equity (!!) for one days work? Cmon now.

That's just ridiculous. 

All sorts of hobby entertainers price their goods/services at very high prices.   Get a good seat at a football game or a Yankees game.   Go to a local amusement park and see how much money they make per person.   

The idea that this is a 'hobby' and therefore exempt from the principles of business economics is ridiculous.   

Also, if you are Neutral Ground and paying thousands and thousands of dollars per month in rent, you certainly can expect to take a larger return.    You don't know what the cost structure of all of these business are.   Taking more than 10% of the entry fees could be very, very reasonable.   

Exactly - they are already making an exceptionally high % on their goods/services because their take is priced into the pricing of their singles.

As I also said steve, I'm perfectly fine with the principles of business practices - but you seemed to miss that. It's the matter of information asymmetries in the magic playing community. You also missed me noting the difference in business structures based upon who the tournament organizer was.

And as far as Neutral Ground - didn't they go out of business for that exact reason?

The question at hand is WHAT WOULD BE A FAIR RAKE, or the amount of money the house keeps based off entrance fees. Seeing as there is already a 20-30% disparity in the card pricing, a 10% cap rake should be more than acceptable. I'm saying that above that point it becomes unfair in my mind and looks like gouging - but obviously if people keep coming back, then "it must work/be perfectly acceptable."

@ Steve: Did you even read the first post? Are you telling me it should be considered "fair" to take in $700 in entrance fees and give back roughly <$400 in prizes?

[Smmenen]

I don't want to overstate my disagreement, I was taking a few things that you said at the margins and expressing my disagreement with them.   I certainly agree that raking in $700 and giving out $400 is not a fair rake.  But I don't think that we can draw a brightline rule as to what is a fair rake.  That's my first point.
My second point is that I think that a range between 10-25% of the entry fee could be a fair rake, and certainly anything below 10% is exceptionally fair.

With respect to a point that you are making -- that store owners make money on singles -- I would simply say that there is a much firmer ceiling on what store owners can price singles at and reasonably expect to sell at a decent clip on account of competition with internet sales.    SCG and Ebay + postal costs pretty much put a hard ceiling on what stores can make on singles.   Hosting events should be a non trivial part of most stores revenue streams.   

EDIT: To be clear, I voted "no" in this poll.   

EDIT 2: I don't think that you should emphasize the fact that this is a "hobby" in trying to draw a distinction between Magic and other business since that is -- in my view -- an irrelevant distinction.  That's one of the things that struck me as obviously wrong.