[FREE Article] So Many Insane Plays: Vintage On a Budget -- GW Beatdown!

[Othar]

Ghost Quarter also has good synergy with Mindcensor.

[Guli]

If Bazaar can be shut down you will have a strong position against dredge. There are several ways to do that. Strip it, needle it, suppression field it, etc...

I pointed out a while ago that the way they need to win can be attacked as well. They need a combat phase and swing. Mostly that involves siding enchantments though and they can get rid of it post board. Elephant Grass for exemple does this but can also be get rid of. Still it is cheap and if combined with other 'answers' it can overload the dredge player.

Ichorid is just a good deck to be honest and requires special attention which makes it hard to find good versatile cards that also are relevant in other match ups. Even the most hardcore hate can be solved by the dredge player if they draw into the answers. So shutting down the engine (bazaar) seems like the strongest play because this automatically limits their draw phases. (Bazaar gives them more draw phases)

[Guli]

I've liked Meekstone before but mostly in Bomberman.  It's a pretty big hinderance when also running Tarmogoyf.

Tarmogoyf is not necessary to win the game. It helps a lot though. In the article you can find a comment on this issue as well. I also believe that a list can be created without Tarm without losing quality. However if someone would do that he better justify that decision with very solid arguments.

I read a post somewhere some while ago that said: " Fish needs to run 'Goyf so they can deal with opposing 'Goyf " This is not entirely true and I did take it out of context now but it still has a point. Though I have another problem with Meekstone, the same problem as Pithin Needle, it just sits there, you can't really protect it. And with a meta with so many artifacts seeing play, the chance that the meek will get destroyed or bounced or eaten from is real because there is artifact hate out there.

[BoshNRoll]

Has anyone actually sleeved this up and tested with it that can share results? 

I read the article twice through and the theory all seems sound, but it is only theory.  I'd like to see something solid before I take the effort to build it for real.

[urweak]

Has anyone actually sleeved this up and tested with it that can share results? 

I read the article twice through and the theory all seems sound, but it is only theory.  I'd like to see something solid before I take the effort to build it for real.

I would download MWS load it up on there and have at it. Do some testing on your own and see how you like it.

[Smmenen]

Has anyone actually sleeved this up and tested with it that can share results? 

I read the article twice through and the theory all seems sound, but it is only theory.  I'd like to see something solid before I take the effort to build it for real.

While I have not played the deck in a tournament, I did test the deck extensively.   You'll notice that the analysis of each of the cards does not explain with more precision how I ultimately decided on the cards I did, or their ratios.  That was a result of testing.

Also, on Shusher, I would not run less than 4.   Even while I had one Shusher in play, many opponents were quickly using their resources to try and answer the first.   Shusher is a card you want to play every turn two if you can, so I can see the argument about running less than 3 plains.  However, in my testing that was never an issue.  If you want to cut a Plains for a Forest, I'm not sure it would hurt that much.   

EDIT: the fact that you want to have a Shusher in play ASAP, either turn two or three every game, means that you really want 4.   The marginal cost of seeing a duplicate is not that significant.  I would run 3 Teegs before 3 Shusher, and that's saying something. 

[Guli]

Why is casting Shusher so important? Why not cast the actual threats they can't counter everything. Do you have the luxury to play Shusher and pass the turn? Shusher only indirectly stops the threats of the opponent. Say Shusher hits the board turn 2, you will be able to use it only the next turn granted you have a green open. Why is this play acceptable and a turn 1 vial is not? Turn 1 vial seems even safer to me because that early the chances that they blow in your face with storm is less than turn 2 or turn 3 which are the turns that combo actually goes off. If they force your first teeg/canonist and you play Shusher the next turn, i think you are bending down asking for it. I am curious for your reply Smmenen. Cause I know from my experiences with vial/shusher that they do the same thing in terms of control.

[BoshNRoll]

Why is casting Shusher so important? Why not cast the actual threats they can't counter everything. Do you have the luxury to play Shusher and pass the turn? Shusher only indirectly stops the threats of the opponent. Say Shusher hits the board turn 2, you will be able to use it only the next turn granted you have a green open. Why is this play acceptable and a turn 1 vial is not? Turn 1 vial seems even safer to me because that early the chances that they blow in your face with storm is less than turn 2 or turn 3 which are the turns that combo actually goes off. If they force your first teeg/canonist and you play Shusher the next turn, i think you are bending down asking for it. I am curious for your reply Smmenen. Cause I know from my experiences with vial/shusher that they do the same thing in terms of control.

It's made pretty clear in the article that the way this deck will win is by piling on as much disruptive pressure as possible.  Turn 1 Shusher is a strong play that will maintain its value no matter what else you draw as the game goes on.  As long as you have a green open, you're feeling pretty good about your situation.  Vial is very strong as well, but it'll take you two upkeeps to be able to do anything with it.  Vial also doesn't attack.  By the time you can flash in a Teeg, your opponent will be 4 life higher than they deserve to be if you had played Shusher instead.  And I think the biggest hit to Vial's viability in this deck is the strength of Null Rod.  As it stands now, T1 Shusher into T2 Null Rod is hella sexy.  T1 Vial into T2 Null Rod is a mull to 6 and a wasted turn.

Vial is a very strong card, and I'm sure there are other budget and creature decks that can abuse it.  But it goes against the current of this deck.  Null Rod and Teeg are your best disruptive spells.  There's no reason to use a slot for a card that gets shut down by your own game plan when there's a card with a similar funtion available that doesn't.

Also, while on the draw Shusher can't get Duressed.

[Othar]

Has anyone actually sleeved this up and tested with it that can share results? 

I read the article twice through and the theory all seems sound, but it is only theory.  I'd like to see something solid before I take the effort to build it for real.

I realize this isn't saying much, but the exact list from the article was used to get 2nd in a recent magic-league tourney.

[Smmenen]

Why is casting Shusher so important?

It is important for a number of reasons.   First and foremost, you need to resolve as many of your threats as you can.    The fact of the matter is that this deck has:

1) no draw engine
2) a high mana base

Both of those facts mean that your practical threat density is lower AND you will topdeck worse than blue opponents.   Thus, the resolution of each spell that otherwise would not have resolved is more important.

Why not cast the actual threats they can't counter everything.

Is that a question?

The fact that they can't counter everything does not mean that they can't counter the one thing that you need to resolve to not lose the game.   It's that card that you need Shusher to protect.   

That one thing that you need to resolve, whether it is Null Rod, Mindcensor, Teeg, or Pridemage is the only "actual" threat in the sense that it is the only card that will help you not lose the game.

As I said, this deck, actually, is threat light on account of the fact that you have 28 mana sources and no draw engine.

Do you have the luxury to play Shusher and pass the turn?

Do you have the luxury?   You don't have a choice.   Shusher can only protect spells on turn three and afterward.   

Shusher only indirectly stops the threats of the opponent. Say Shusher hits the board turn 2, you will be able to use it only the next turn granted you have a green open. Why is this play acceptable and a turn 1 vial is not?

No one said that Vial is not an acceptable turn one play.  It's a strong turn one play.  That's not the problem with it.  The problem with Vial is that it does not work with Null Rod, which is by far the more important card.  I know you disagree with me on that point, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

Turn 1 vial seems even safer to me because that early the chances that they blow in your face with storm is less than turn 2 or turn 3 which are the turns that combo actually goes off. If they force your first teeg/canonist and you play Shusher the next turn, i think you are bending down asking for it. I am curious for your reply Smmenen. Cause I know from my experiences with vial/shusher that they do the same thing in terms of control.

If they force your turn one Teeg and you are holding Shusher and Null Rod, you need to ask yourself a critical question: what do I need to do to not lose the game?   If you think that you can safely resolve Null Rod on turn two OR that you MUST play Null Rod on turn two to not lose the game, then by all means do so.  However, if you are uncertain about whether you can resolve Null Rod and you don't think that you will lose the game if you don't resolve it now, then play Shusher and cast Rod on the following turn.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

You bring to light the crux of this deck - no draw engine, 28 mana sources and its relevance for needing Shusher.  I wonder though, there are a few 2-of's in the deck.  Canonist, Kataki, Seals, Choke.  I understand the significance of Choke but I dislike MD'ing specific hate like Pyroblast, Choke etc. 

What do you think of 4 Mother of Runes to protect Aven, Teeg, Goyf, Shusher and Pridemage in lieu of 4 of the above cards?  I would still retain the focus of playing a threat or answer turn one rather than MOM. If so, which of the 4 cards are must includes? Im assuming Kataki.  Also, I think some concession to Ichorid must be acknowledged in the SB.

3 Children of Korlis - anti combo and can be boarded against Ichorid to remove Bridges
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle - Bazaar, Welder, Trike
3 Krosan Grip - cant be countered, stops activations from Trike
4 Tariff

[Guli]

What do you think of 4 Mother of Runes to protect Aven, Teeg, Goyf, Shusher and Pridemage in lieu of 4 of the above cards?  I would still retain the focus of playing a threat or answer turn one rather than MOM. If so, which of the 4 cards are must includes? Im assuming Kataki.  Also, I think some concession to Ichorid must be acknowledged in the SB.

Mother of runes is not good enough. I experimented with the card and you can only tap it once. It can be outplayed too easy. The card I found was Sylvan Safekeeper. You can sac a couple land against combo because their deck is based on the momentum. If they can't win that turn they most likely never will. Sylvan is the better choice. It looks weak on paper though. A 1 mana investment that does nothing to disrupt? Well it does disrupt, and it does it with quality. However it does need a second card to work. So it is a two card combo that shuts down combo decks with teeg or believer. You are not safe with canonist because they hurk recall you. When there is canonist+teeg+safekeeper there are no more outs for the combo player. Sure this is all cute and it works but I dropped the card. Not because it was bad but I wanted to try different ways. Also cards like Aven/Canonist/Teeg/Meddling Mage/True Believer protect each other naturally.

In a deck that wants to cast threats and disrupt the opponent in every move it makes (tempo) safekeeper might not be the ideal choice. In a deck that relies on their bears and their powerful effects you could consider safekeeper to act as a 'counterbalance' or 'chalice' to stop spot removal.


Thanks for the replies Smmenen.

Can you please post your thoughts about the splash of black in the thread I created. It gives you a draw engine, answers ichorid and has effective answers vs Ink.

No one said that Vial is not an acceptable turn one play.  It's a strong turn one play.  That's not the problem with it.  The problem with Vial is that it does not work with Null Rod, which is by far the more important card.  I know you disagree with me on that point, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

In fact I agree with you on that topic. I clearly said this several times. What I try to point out is that there are alternatives like vial and that both rod or vial have their ups and downs. However Null Rod is most likely the safer choice right now. For someone who likes challenges designing a vial list can be a worthwhile learning experience. It adds perspective and variety, it gives a person new ideas.

[Smmenen]

Thanks for the replies Smmenen.

Can you please post your thoughts about the splash of black in the thread I created. It gives you a draw engine, answers ichorid and has effective answers vs Ink.

To be frank, I have already designed a GWB list that I originally intended to include in my discussion of this article on GW Beatdown.   At the last minute, I decided to save the analysis and presentation of a black splash for a future article.   One of the reasons is that I felt that discussing a black splash would take away from the presentation of GW, since adding a black splash gives you, in many respects, a much stronger deck for the obvious reasons you mentioned. 

[nineisnoone]

Why not cast the actual threats they can't counter everything.

Is that a question?

The fact that they can't counter everything does not mean that they can't counter the one thing that you need to resolve to not lose the game.   It's that card that you need Shusher to protect.   

As I said, this deck, actually, is threat light on account of the fact that you have 28 mana sources and no draw engine.

Aren't you creating your own problem though?  You are threat light... therefore you HAVE to get Shusher because if you don't get that one card to resolve, you will lose.  Of course, because you run more Shushers... you are now threat light... meaning you have to run more shushers....  etc etc

Shusher is best addressed by looking at when you would play him over a card that would actively disrupt the opponent.  In my opinion, the only time I would play Shusher over disruption is when I feel I've disrupted them so much that I feel that I can afford to give them a turn to do whatever they want. 

Especially since opposing players can always deal with things after they have dropped onto the board.

[Guli]

You know what another question is? Or better something that I am thinking about these days when I design fish. The ability to play out creatures and combine them with disruption can only be truly achieved with cards like Force of Will. This must be combined with a good draw engine, meaning Dark confidant, which is the best. So when we look at it fundamentally if fish really wants to disrupt with more than 1 piece/turn, and with something that can stop their plan, Force of Will is the way to go. However I also think this strategy is simply not enough. Choosing to dedicate slots to free disruption just to be able to have a moment of glory turn 1 or turn 2 does not mean you stopped the opponent. So maybe being threat HEAVY is not the answer either if they can rebuild quickly with TFK or Thoughtcast or whatever engine they run. IF IF IF ... if you can get confidant in play, duress their bomb, and force something relevant AND you can keep up the pressure, THEN winning chances increase. But not without dedicating 4 slots to Null Rod in the deck because you still need to cast Null Rod as well in the mix of all that. Because they might vault/key any time. And you better have an answer to Tinker as well! That Inkwell is right behind the corner.

I know fish is currently an archetype that follows the meta. Reacts to it accordingly. But Why does fish always have to be the Camel. Is it doomed to this role? Why is blue always got to be the lion? Or are their no lions in vintage, is everybody just trying to react to the 'other' decks out there? And if fish is naturally a camel, why not make use of super reactive cards like tutors for bears?

If mana denial is the only route fish can take, it all seems boring to me. It is not fun anymore, all you got to know is when you play what bear or lock piece. Their is hardly deck manipulation, a lot of 4 offs which you desperately need. Also with shusher and black splash, null rod, i am seriously considering nether void as a win condition. What more mana denial do you want?

Just posting some random thoughts that focus on some issues out there.

Stephen, would you consider Nether void if you would add black to the shusher list?

[mdenny]

Stephen,
I really like your list. I proxied it up and enjoyed playing it so much that I decided to get all the cards and might give it a try at my next tournament. I like the idea of adding black for 4x thoughtseize/duress a couple of confidants and jailer/edict as sideboard answers. However, I feel that there are often situations where I have my opponent soft locked with several pieces and want a fast way to end the game to minimize the chances of my opponent top decking an answer.Have you ever considered Garruk in the main deck as a two or three-of? I haven't had the chance to do a lot of testing with it but it has several features that i like particularly. First getting to untap two lands serves as both a good tempo boost and a nice main deck answer to Stax and the ability to make guys can also be used to mitigate Smokestack to some extent. The other big advantage I've fond is that it gives you the ability to race a leviathan if blue goes to plan B tinker strategy , as overrun in this deck should usually be lethal and only takes one turn of pumping to make it work. Especially with Shusher in the MD it would seem to me that this would give you a major boost versus Fish. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this and will report back when i can get more testing in.

[Smmenen]

As good as I think I managed to make a completely budget (i.e. no power or big money cards) Green White beatdown deck, it's hard to deny that a black splash is probably just superior for those obvious reasons.   I had hoped to publish by list with a black splash this week, but to be honest tuning it has been more difficult than I thought.    Guli and others have missed some key cards, which I'll just have to unveil in the future.    Garruk is an interesting idea, but he's really too expensive to cast reliably.   Maybe if Balance were unrestricted ;P

Why not cast the actual threats they can't counter everything.

Is that a question?

The fact that they can't counter everything does not mean that they can't counter the one thing that you need to resolve to not lose the game.   It's that card that you need Shusher to protect.   

As I said, this deck, actually, is threat light on account of the fact that you have 28 mana sources and no draw engine.

Aren't you creating your own problem though?  You are threat light... therefore you HAVE to get Shusher because if you don't get that one card to resolve, you will lose.  Of course, because you run more Shushers... you are now threat light... meaning you have to run more shushers....  etc etc

Shusher is best addressed by looking at when you would play him over a card that would actively disrupt the opponent.  In my opinion, the only time I would play Shusher over disruption is when I feel I've disrupted them so much that I feel that I can afford to give them a turn to do whatever they want. 

Especially since opposing players can always deal with things after they have dropped onto the board.

The logic you just articulated, why run protection for your disruption instead of just more disruption, is a question that could apply to virtually any vintage deck.   the answer is that there are great disparities between various disruptive options.    Beyond Mindcensor, Teeg, Null Rod and Pridemage, there really isn't anything else at that level, and frankly, the gulf between even those cards is quite apparent.   Shusher's ability to protect those key cards makes it priceless in straight GW, and all the more so because it can't be countered, unlike a counterspell, Orim's Chant, or a Duress.   

In short, there is no piece of disruption that is really worth including in the colors over Shusher.  It's the best.   

[Guli]

I agree and I also found out about Shusher after testing the card when it came out. I was scepticall about it at first as well. It would be a big mistake not running Shusher in a green or red mana base.

[Troy_Costisick]

I agree and I also found out about Shusher after testing the card when it came out. I was scepticall about it at first as well. It would be a big mistake not running Shusher in a green or red mana base.

Red can get away with not having Shusher because it has Red Blasts- something GW lacks.  In fact, I believe the large disparity in potential between GW and RG is directly tied to Red Blasts and SSG.  GW has no way to stop a non-permision blue spell (Tinker, Tez, Recall, Mystical, Hurkyl's) once it's been cast.  With Tinker-Leviathan being the key play in Vintage right now, this is a significant weakness for this deck, IMHO.

[Tin_Mox5831]

It's kind of awful, but you can stop any blue instant for G with Guttural Response.

[Guli]

I agree and I also found out about Shusher after testing the card when it came out. I was scepticall about it at first as well. It would be a big mistake not running Shusher in a green or red mana base.

Red can get away with not having Shusher because it has Red Blasts- something GW lacks.  In fact, I believe the large disparity in potential between GW and RG is directly tied to Red Blasts and SSG.  GW has no way to stop a non-permision blue spell (Tinker, Tez, Recall, Mystical, Hurkyl's) once it's been cast.  With Tinker-Leviathan being the key play in Vintage right now, this is a significant weakness for this deck, IMHO.

I don't see Shusher as a 'get away with' card. Especially if he is combined with Chalice of the Void.

[Troy_Costisick]

I agree and I also found out about Shusher after testing the card when it came out. I was scepticall about it at first as well. It would be a big mistake not running Shusher in a green or red mana base.

Red can get away with not having Shusher because it has Red Blasts- something GW lacks.  In fact, I believe the large disparity in potential between GW and RG is directly tied to Red Blasts and SSG.  GW has no way to stop a non-permision blue spell (Tinker, Tez, Recall, Mystical, Hurkyl's) once it's been cast.  With Tinker-Leviathan being the key play in Vintage right now, this is a significant weakness for this deck, IMHO.

I don't see Shusher as a 'get away with' card. Especially if he is combined with Chalice of the Void.

Your post doesn't really make any sense.  What I said was that the R/G deck Steve designed doesn't require Shusher because it can pack up to 8 Red Blasts and- if you want to go that far- 4 additional Artifact Blasts.  The G/W deck has no comparable card to Red Blast so Shusher is absolutely vital to it.  Otherwise, there's nothing it can do against blue spells once they're in the air.  Your response is just a casual comment that doesn't address what I said at all.

It's kind of awful, but you can stop any blue instant for G with Guttural Response.

It's more than "kind of" awful.  It is a card that we should keep in mind as a card that might have potential applications somewhere down the line, but the fact that it can't hit cards like Tez, Tinker, and Time Walk is very significant.  I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

[Guli]

Your posts are harsh. I don't enjoy reading them at all. But you do make good points. These sentences were irrelevant. But they do reflect my feelings. Try putting your arguments nicer, the presentation does matter just like the content of the message.

I was perhaps vague? What I mean is that Vexing can be used for other purposes as well. It makes Chalice stronger in your deck. It answers opposing chalice which is relevant against Shop or Oath. It is not just a walking REB like you think it is.

[nineisnoone]

It's kind of awful, but you can stop any blue instant for G with Guttural Response.

It's more than "kind of" awful.  It is a card that we should keep in mind as a card that might have potential applications somewhere down the line, but the fact that it can't hit cards like Tez, Tinker, and Time Walk is very significant.  I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

Why does that make Gutteral awful?  Shusher doesn't hit Tez, Tinker, or Time Walk.  It doesn't even hit Thrist for Knowledge.  Not that I'm necessarily a fan of Gutteral, but those aren't really legitimate critiques of the card when you are comparing it to Shusher.

[Troy_Costisick]

It's kind of awful, but you can stop any blue instant for G with Guttural Response.

It's more than "kind of" awful.  It is a card that we should keep in mind as a card that might have potential applications somewhere down the line, but the fact that it can't hit cards like Tez, Tinker, and Time Walk is very significant.  I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

Why does that make Gutteral awful?  Shusher doesn't hit Tez, Tinker, or Time Walk.  It doesn't even hit Thrist for Knowledge.  Not that I'm necessarily a fan of Gutteral, but those aren't really legitimate critiques of the card when you are comparing it to Shusher.

I'm not comparing it to Shusher.  I'm comparing it to Red Elemental Blast.  Please go back and re-read my post from May 15th.

[nineisnoone]

It's kind of awful, but you can stop any blue instant for G with Guttural Response.

It's more than "kind of" awful.  It is a card that we should keep in mind as a card that might have potential applications somewhere down the line, but the fact that it can't hit cards like Tez, Tinker, and Time Walk is very significant.  I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

Why does that make Gutteral awful?  Shusher doesn't hit Tez, Tinker, or Time Walk.  It doesn't even hit Thrist for Knowledge.  Not that I'm necessarily a fan of Gutteral, but those aren't really legitimate critiques of the card when you are comparing it to Shusher.

I'm not comparing it to Shusher.  I'm comparing it to Red Elemental Blast.  Please go back and re-read my post from May 15th.

But you weren't comparing it to Red Elemental Blast.   

I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

And notably Red Elemental Blast is not in Steve's list.

At least main deck.  I don't have premium.

[Guli]

What exactly are you discussing Troy_Costisick?

REB and Shusher are very different cards targeting different card pools. Especially for the opponent. Sure their are also similarities, but that does not mean they are identical.

I run them both, REB in the side.

[Troy_Costisick]

What exactly are you discussing Troy_Costisick?

Re-read my posts.

REB and Shusher are very different cards targeting different card pools.

You are restating my point.

I run them both, REB in the side.

In a G/W deck?  Because that's the deck I'm talking about.

But you weren't comparing it to Red Elemental Blast.   

Yes I was:

Red can get away with not having Shusher because it has Red Blasts- something GW lacks.  In fact, I believe the large disparity in potential between GW and RG is directly tied to Red Blasts and SSG.  GW [Steve's Build] has no way to stop a non-permision blue spell (Tinker, Tez, Recall, Mystical, Hurkyl's) once it's been cast.  With Tinker-Leviathan being the key play in Vintage right now, this is a significant weakness for this deck, IMHO.

It [Gutural Response] is a card that we should keep in mind as a card that might have potential applications somewhere down the line, but the fact that it can't hit cards like Tez, Tinker, and Time Walk is very significant.  I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

Read the second quote within the context of the first.  The first was in response to Guli's assertion that it is a "Big Mistake" not to run Shusher in a deck with a red mana base.  I completely disagree and have had the tournament experience with the R/G deck to back up my oppinion.  The second was in response to Tinmox and why I would not use Guttural Response.

But you weren't comparing it to Red Elemental Blast.   

I wouldn't replace any cards in Steve's list with it.

Well, if you want to get that technical, then I guess I was comparing it to Forest too.

And notably Red Elemental Blast is not in Steve's list.

Yeah, because it's a GW deck.  The point I wanted to highlight was that Shusher is necessary in the GW build because it lacks the ability to play Red Blasts like the R/G build.  I would not replace Shusher with Guttural Response in the G/W build because the marginal utility of being able to counter TFK, Ancestral, and Mystical is not worth losing the ability to repeatedly use Shusher's ability to get spells past permission.  I would not use Shusher in the R/G build because Red Blasts are more flexible and easier to cast.  Thus I believe (going back to my original point) the GW deck has a weakness that the R/G deck does not even though Shusher does mitigate it to some degree.

At least main deck.  I don't have premium.

So you haven't read his article?  Then perhaps the comparisons I'm making will be confusing.  The foundation for them are layed in Steve's article where he draws comparisons between the GW and RG decks he designed.

Now, if we can get away from playing Gotchya for a minute, I would want to point out something else.  The G/W build and the R/G build are each suited to different metagames IMO.  The GW build would be terrific in a Dark Ritual or Gush environment because of cards like Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Cannonist.  Right now, I believe R/G is in a better position because of the reliance on Drains, cheap blue draw spells, and massive amounts of artifacts.  If the wheel should turn and combo decks rise, I can see Steve's GW build posting terrific numbers for a budget deck.

[nineisnoone]

Yeah, because it's a GW deck.  The point I wanted to highlight was that Shusher is necessary in the GW build because it lacks the ability to play Red Blasts like the R/G build.  I would not replace Shusher with Guttural Response in the G/W build because the marginal utility of being able to counter TFK, Ancestral, and Mystical is not worth losing the ability to repeatedly use Shusher's ability to get spells past permission.  I would not use Shusher in the R/G build because Red Blasts are more flexible and easier to cast.  Thus I believe (going back to my original point) the GW deck has a weakness that the R/G deck does not even though Shusher does mitigate it to some degree.

And see this was the point I was trying to get to.  Obviously, Gutteral is better than Red Blast if you can cast it.

But to get back to Shusher versus Gutteral, I don't think countering TFK, Recall, or Mystic is enough to play Gutteral.  I think they are important, but my main reason for thinking Gutteral, at least is not as bad as you think it is, is because Gutteral costs 1 and Shusher + ability costs 3.  Getting disruption down quicker and faster, seems more important than being able to drop more of the same.  Plus, once something does get played Gutteral's ability to stop draw and bounce spells helps keep them on the board.  That combination of effects makes me think you underrate Gutteral Response.

At least main deck.  I don't have premium.

So you haven't read his article?  Then perhaps the comparisons I'm making will be confusing.  The foundation for them are layed in Steve's article where he draws comparisons between the GW and RG decks he designed.

Now, if we can get away from playing Gotchya for a minute, I would want to point out something else.  The G/W build and the R/G build are each suited to different metagames IMO.  The GW build would be terrific in a Dark Ritual or Gush environment because of cards like Gaddok Teeg and Ethersworn Cannonist.  Right now, I believe R/G is in a better position because of the reliance on Drains, cheap blue draw spells, and massive amounts of artifacts.  If the wheel should turn and combo decks rise, I can see Steve's GW build posting terrific numbers for a budget deck.

Well, I wasn't trying to play gotcha, I just wanted to know your reasoning behind evaluating Shusher so much higher over Gutteral.  Which, I disagree with.  I'm not in love with either card, but I don't see Shusher as being such a clear answer as a 4 of or over Gutteral or otherwise.  But I guess everything's been said on that subject.

I would add though that Red does have a strong ability to contend with combo decks with Pyrostatic Pillar.  As a card and in an heavy aggro deck, I would rate it above Teeg, Cannonist, and Believer.  White does have a broader range of options here though.

And random note, Toxic Iguanar is good against Inkwell if you aren't running islands and have green permanents.  And I think if aggro looks at the long list of cards with Deathtouch or similar effects, we might start seeing more DSC again.  Red (Iguanar, conditional though), White (Loyal Sentry), and Green (Thornweld Archer) all have cards that can kill an Inkwell on block.  Blue and Black are irrelevant b/c they can run Hurkyll's or Edicts.  The creature options actually have a notable advantage of being able to kill Tarmogoyf.

[Guli]

I would add though that Red does have a strong ability to contend with combo decks with Pyrostatic Pillar.  As a card and in an heavy aggro deck, I would rate it above Teeg, Cannonist, and Believer.  White does have a broader range of options here though.

I agree, Pillar is kinda like Goyf because it punishes cards that resolve. So 'Goyf + Pillar together is a serious clock. There are also things like Prize of progress that people started using. The idea is to deal a lot damage to everybody to change the starting point of 20 vs 20 life. It sounds interesting to have 8 goyf/pillar that serve as 'win conditions' and dedicate the rest of the deck to disrupt the best way you can.