Suicide Necro Deck

[Kaiser von Hugal]

To replicate the effect of 4 Necro - I included 4 Dark Confidants and 2 Cutthroats.  The Negators could be Nantuko Shades in an Aggro field.  There's 20 cards in the MD that generate direct card advantage.  Id like to find a way to splash green for Goyf and Seal of Primordium without diluting the black mana base.

2 Cutthroat
4 Hyppies
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
4 Null Rod
3 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
14 Swamp
4 Strips

SB
3x Extirpate - combo and Ichorid, oath
4x Smother
4x Yixlid Jailer - Ichorid
4x Pithing Needle - Ichorid, Welder

[chubah]

Drain Life is not a reliable card and it's way to expensive. Stick with 4 Diabolic Edicts to kill the fatties, or you can add some Snuff Out since they are free to play.
Zuran Orb is not a good choice either, I would replace it with a Strip Mine.

[LennoxLewis86]

I like the idea of a green splash here, Goyfs are obviously better than Shades and Deeds are also more efficient than Kegs.
But when the meta is artifact heavy and you might expect Wastelands I'd stick to mono black with Null Rods and Negators, in that case I'd might consider some more disruption to go with this guy. Backed up by Sinkholes, Hymns and Ritual fueled Mind Twists the Negator functions best. So I'd consider running any of the cards I've mentioned that you aren't running. I'm not really sure if Sinkhole is any good these days but it is still underpriced LD and it also fits in this decks' strategy.

It's annoying to have to dedicate this many slots to Ichorid don't you agree? Still, it has to be done because Duress becomes a dead card and Hymn practically too (chances it will take down Bazaar are very slim)

I also agree with 4 Edicts as your only removal, should be enough. I see you have Smother in SB, I'm not sure how good Smother is but it most definitely kills Goyfs. Also Confidants and Welders so I can't disagree with you on that pick really.. 
Finally, I can't see Zuran Orb being any good here. Same goes for the Drain Lifes. You're low on land, how often can you drain for more than 3 even with a ritual?
I would rather use that 5 mana to Mind Twist my opponent for 4 cards.

I hope anything of this helps, I'm glad to see people will always play/test sui black decks

[chubah]

Thank you for the feedback.  I made changes below in bold, adding green.  The biggie is adding land grant.  I added this as it plays better with Bob and cant be stifled.  Its an aggressive deck - Im either using grant after emptying my hand or Im filling my hand up and dont really need the grant.  I like the list better with the 2 best critters in vintage IMHO.

2 Mind Twist - This really should have been in the first list.
4 Hyppies
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Pernicous Deed
4 Hymm to Tourach
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will - this may get cut for a 3rd Mind Twist.
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Land Grant - cant be stifled, nor loss of life from a search land (loss of life isnt a biggie, but it is -1 card with necro on the board)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
11 Swamp
4 Bayou
1 Forest

I would also suggest using 4x Sinkholes, combined with the discard and fast creatures they will disrupt your opponent a lot.

-2 Mind Twist (Duress, Hymns + Hypnotics are more than enough)
-4 Land Grant
+1 Strip Mine (Black deck without it makes no sense)
+1 Swamp
+4 Sinkhole

[Lurker101]

Sinkhole is a good card but isn't it a little too slow these days?

[the boogie man]

agreed. why not run life from the loam? you only need 2-3, and then you can play 1 2 mana sorcery and destroy 3 lands. and it is recurable.

[Lurker101]

agreed. why not run life from the loam? you only need 2-3, and then you can play 1 2 mana sorcery and destroy 3 lands. and it is recurable.

You could also play Raven's Crime if you add Life from the Loam. That combo can be pretty devastating and IMO is better than Hymn.

[chubah]

agreed. why not run life from the loam? you only need 2-3, and then you can play 1 2 mana sorcery and destroy 3 lands. and it is recurable.

You could also play Raven's Crime if you add Life from the Loam. That combo can be pretty devastating and IMO is better than Hymn.

I strongly disagree, by playing the Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime combo, you are wasting 6-8 MD slots in order to disrupt your opponent more efficiently midgame, however a Hymn played during the first turns could be more devastating and it only costs you 4 MD slots.

This deck needs an explosive early game in order to overwhelm the opponent and win, you can't make compromises and rely on slower combos such as Crusible/Waste lock or Life/Raven. This isn't Legacy, if the deck fails to deliver during earlygame it's pretty much doomed.

[Lurker101]

agreed. why not run life from the loam? you only need 2-3, and then you can play 1 2 mana sorcery and destroy 3 lands. and it is recurable.

You could also play Raven's Crime if you add Life from the Loam. That combo can be pretty devastating and IMO is better than Hymn.

I strongly disagree, by playing the Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime combo, you are wasting 6-8 MD slots in order to disrupt your opponent more efficiently midgame, however a Hymn played during the first turns could be more devastating and it only costs you 4 MD slots.

This deck needs an explosive early game in order to overwhelm the opponent and win, you can't make compromises and rely on slower combos such as Crusible/Waste lock or Life/Raven. This isn't Legacy, if the deck fails to deliver during earlygame it's pretty much doomed.

Maybe cut Mind Twist and a couple hymns and a couple deeds for it or Land Grant. Mind Twist, unless you get ritual ritual mind twist is a slower card too. Then you still have early game control from the remaining Hymns and Duresses and you can lock your opponent out completely during the mid game.

[LennoxLewis86]

I think you shouldn't cut Mind Twist, because Mind Twist isn't slow at all. It is versatile if anything. You can power it with Rituals early or you can play it a little later with swamps and make it a mustcounter everytime you play it. Hymns are awesome, don't think about cutting them. The reason I suggested Mind Twist is because a  Hymn is pretty nasty too. Not to mention bigger Twists.
This could be very effective with a Life from the Loam strategy, but not Raven's Crime also. Duress, Hymn to stun your opponent. If you can somehow landlock him from that point you've pretty much won. Other strategies involve early discard and big creature(s) which also can be a pain for the controlplayer. Raven's Crime is a commital card and you pretty much need L from the L to use it like you want to use it. You need different ways to win the game and this deck can win with creatures, landlocks, devastating Will etc.
With the available tutors out there for black, I think versatility is the best way to go.
 

[the boogie man]

I disagree about ravens crime. you could run 1-2 and you would only have to play it once. then, anytime you have an extra land it become disruption. you don't have to play it multiple times a turn for it to be devastating.

[LennoxLewis86]

That is true, but in order to play it you want to cut Hymns or Mind Twists. Targeted or random discard is better than forcing the opponent to discard a card.
In order to make it better than running Hymns or Twists you do want to cast multiples. Turn 1 Crime is not a good play if you ask me, most of the time they can just discard something not needed where Duress and Hymn slows players down for one or more turns. Time needed to drop a Confidant or Tarmogoyf to put your opponent on a clock or in a position where they can't sit back and take control.
Hymns and Twists are basically must-counters. Raven's Crime is an easy to jump hurdle compared to them or Duress. Yes, they do become annoying in the later stages of the game but to get there you definitely need 4 Hymns imo.
Mind Twist is pretty much always nice to topdeck, why would you cut these for Raven's Crime?

[Roat17]

DO NOT cut Yawgmoth's Will for another Mind Twist.  Mind Twist shouldn't be in this deck, nor should land grant.
Let's say you Ritual into a Mind Twist.  Any  player is going to counter the ritual if they think you are playing Tendrils-esque combo or counter the Twist if they deem you won't win resolving a Ritual.  If you try and set it up with a duress, then this is turn 4 or 5 or so and at this point you should have been playing threats all along and a single Mind Twist may seal the deal for you.  Other decks refill their hands faster than you do.  Mind Twist is very counter-productive.  I understand this is 'suicide' black but you can't really play 'sui' effectively any more.  You have to play more of a fish or control style deck.  It's just the way the meta is.  You might snag a few wins using a Twist but more often then not you'll be finding this situation "My opponent has 5 cards, I have 3, I have dominant board position.  I'll use a ritual and tap 2 to twist for 4 - opponent Force of Wills" or in the same scenario you get Duress first, get the Mind Twist off and you have a Negator down.  Your  opponent (You want to be in the winning brackets meaning you are playing against  {U}control,  {B}combo, or ichorid in all reality) have much better top decks then you.  Every card in the U players deck is deadly and now they will be top-decking 3 cards before you finish them off.  More often then not they will find a card to help them.  Maybe an ancestral, merchant scroll, demonic tutor, tinker, Yawgmoth's Will (god forbid because now you've pimped out their graveyard), Accumulated Knowledge, Thirst for Knowledge etc...The point is suicide just isn't the way to win anymore because the speed at which your opponent can recover is too great.

Also, Land Grant does not belong is a serious fish deck.  Belcher is perhaps the only deck that should run it, or other decks that win on that turn.  Land grant turns into a COUNTERABLE land drop.  There is nothing worse than having your land drop countered.  Yes, good players will counter it because they know it's cuts off your resources.  Fish decks will make you cry and you'll be seeing a lot of fish decks in rounds 1-2 of large tournaments. 

Hymn is not good enough right now.  You need to be able to choose what cards your opponent discards.  Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize + Duress is the staple of your disruption suite.  Also, powder keg is not good enough.  Deed is better but too slow if you want to be a punishing aggro deck.  You need Null Rod.  Let's say you are on the play.  You play Duress and then Tarmogoyf.  You nab your opponents Tinker and see Ancestral Recal, land, mox, mox , lands, Force of will.  You shut off your opponents immediate victory but they are able to Ancestral Recall into maybe a merchant scroll Yawgmoth's Will etc all on first turn.  Null Rod makes this hand a 2 mana hand, and it slows them down to 1 land drop a turn.  Provided you designed your deck appropriately you should be able to handle them a 1 land per turn.

Yawgmoth's Will is the most powerful card in Vintage.  You are playing rituals. Add a single Tendrils of Agony.  Now instead of Y.Will being mediocre, it's a powerhouse provided you have a tutor in your hand or grave and you will definately have a ritual in 1 of the 2.  It doesn't have to be a lethal Tendrils either, a Tendrils for 4-14 is still quite good.  Sometimes you can play Duress, Ritual, Tendrils for 6. With a Tarmogoyf down that's an extra swing basically.  Let's say next turn you get Will and you have another Ritual.  Ritual, Will, Ritual, Ritual, Duress, Tendrils for 12.  Yawgmoth's will, Rituals, and Tendrils all do stupidly good things on their own and it only get's better when they are together. 

Smemmen (Steve Menedian [sp?]) along with his team (meandeck) are some of the best deck creators around.  If you search these forums or Starcity games he has made a budget suicide black deck for todays meta.  It doesn't include a green splash beacuse duals aren't very budget, but if you notice his deck starts with slowing the opponent down turn 1 using 4 null rods and 4 chalice of the voids.  You need to be playing at least 1 of these, with Null Rod being better in this deck since you use Rituals instead of Moxen for acceleration.  Also, Land Grants should be Elvish Spirit Guides.  It's faster and it gives you an extra beater late game.  While Hymns are decent and cheaper (money wise) they aren't as good as Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy in the hands of a skilled player.  You need to know how to win or how to prevent them from winning and what card to rid their hand of to make this happen. 

I wouldn't use 4 Deeds in a Vintage deck.  This is aggro so if you are wiping the board a lot you are in trouble unless you are playing Goblins.  I would use 1-2 Deeds MD, the rest in the SB against Fish and Goblin matchups. 
Add Seal of Primordium instead.  Blows up moxen, Sol Ring, Stax lock pieces, Time Vaults etc...for less committment.  You want to win quickly.  You don't need to rid your opponent of every artifact, just the one that allows them to win faster than you. 
I am making a  "sui" deck as well.  I will be using 3-4 Seals, 0 Deeds, 2-3 Edicts 4 Duress/Therapy, 0 Hymn/Mind Twist, 4 Null Rod/Chalice.

A great green card to look at is Root Maze.  Root Maze with Land grant is actually ok, since fetchlands need to be tapped.  I would only play land grant if you are playing Root Maze.  Also, this deck needs Wastelands.  Wasteland is soooooooooo good.  Wasteland + Null Rod + Seal/Root Maze is a Major Headache for your opponent and let's you gain board control through turn 2-4.  This is when you need to be winning.  Turn 1 you want to disrupt.  Turn 2-4 you want to disrupt whil trying to resolve your own 'win' spells.  By turn 5 You should know whether or not you will win provided something flukey doesn't happen.

Also, I actually think cutthroat is pretty 'cool'.  Against a lot of decks they will break their own fetch lands during your turn which helps this card.  I haven't tested it but with the right shell it could work well.  I would test this with Bitterblossom to make sure the damage goes through.  I will be posting my own g/b list soon if you'd like to take a look.  I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll summarize real quick.

You have some good points and fresh looks on a really fun deck to play.  Unfortunately, you're going a little bit backwards from what Sui Black has evolved into.  If you're allowed to use Proxies where you play, take a look at (I believe the spelling is) Fiorino suicide black.  It came in 3 at the Vintage Worlds a couple years ago.  It used a blue splash for Time Walk, Ancestral, and a single Bounce Spell I believe, while also using 3 Tendrils of Agony as "Mini-Tendrils"  They allow for more cards off Necro and more turns against aggro decks, while giving you a way to win when faced with bigger creatures standing in your way.

Good luck!

[policehq]

If you try and set it up with a duress, then this is turn 4 or 5

Started to read your wall of text but got caught up at this point... huh?

[Roat17]

Sorry, I am really bad for Text defenders

Sorry.

My points.

Mind Twist is too slow to be effective.  Cast early you waste resources on it (Rituals, Lotus) and cast late it's strictly not better than casting Yawgmoth's Will except in perhaps very few situations.  In order to make sure Twist resolves, you need a duress + at least 3 mana for the twist and that is too slow.  (This was the point I was making in the above quote).

Land Grant sucks.  It's a counterable land drop basically, and you reveal your hand.  If you want to play it play belcher.

Hymn is not that effective right now because of it's randomness.  Today's game calls for precise action.  While powerful, precise is exactly what Hymn is not.  I fear Hymn as a non blue player, and try and find my Mis-D when I am using blue.

4 Pernicious Deeds are too many MD.  1-2 should be sufficient.  More can be brought in against fish decks.

Keep Yawg Will, and if you are playing with Will, a Tutor, and Rituals, Tendrils is almost a must.

Those are the major points. Sorry again.

[policehq]

No it wasn't the length that got to me, but the point that you said about Duress. Why is it turn 4 or 5 if you've used a Duress to clear the way for Mind Twist? Maybe in a metagame with Commandeer like we have now, Mind Twist isn't a good idea without a significant number of Duress effects, but it seems pretty easy to clear the way turn 1 then, with a Ritual, doing something a little better than Hymn turn 2. Plus Brainstorm is restricted now so cards can't be protected as well. Even before Brainstorm's restriction Mind Twist was often played in Europe; it's a strong spell.

[Roat17]

I've played Mind Twist before and while it certainly has some applications, overall it's not as good as Yawgmoth's Will.  Someone suggested cutting Will for a Mind Twist I believe.

Secondly, turn 1 Ritual Mind Twist isn't very effective.  You are trading two of your cards for two cards of the opponents.  Random yes, but significantly worse than Hymn because now you can't Duress/Therapy.  For Mind Twist to be better, you need 4 mana.  Without full acceleration that means using either multiple rituals turn 1, or waiting a couple turns.  Since most of your opponents will play blue, this is both too slow, and too risky.  I say you want to use a Duress effect to clear the way because by turn 4 or 5 if you can Duress, then Ritual into a Mind Twist you can clear the opponent's hand, or most of it, depending on what you see fit.

I stole this from a SCG article found this randomly somewhere dealing with magic:

"In order to gain card advantage with Mind Twist, you will need three mana."

And that’s the problem. Mind Twist is inferior to the one-mana Duress effects and you will not be likely to have 3 mana available to fuel this card. It’s an option, but I don’t think it’s optimal, even now that you can run four of them. Hymn to Tourach might even be superior, as it was in 2002. Which makes it also inferior to Cabal Therapy.

Unless you have 4 mana available to use it, it's a worse Hymn.  And if you are spending the resources to play it, you better make sure it get's through.  If it's played mid-game off solely lands for 4-5 then it serves a purpose.  Clears a good chunk of cards or draws a counter out.  But when you play it off Ritual, Ritual, Mind Twist, if you win, you're slightly ahead.  You haven't won yet but you're ahead depending on what you ripped from them.  If they counter it, then you've pretty much lost because you wasted 2 Rituals and a Twist.

[LennoxLewis86]

That's why I personally think Mind Twist could be played here. The first list has 3 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize. This means that you if you decide to run the Hymns, you have yourself a pretty nice manacurve, especially if you include Mind Twist which is versatile with Dark Rituals. On a turn 1 Ritual you can play many different combinations of cards. This deck should easily be able to clear the way for a big Mind Twist early... But Mind Twist is not really conditional, it's a nice card to find in your openinghand and a nice deck to topdeck.
I agree that a Ritual/Twist isn't very effective but it's one of many plays you can pull when you find a Ritual in your hand. If you have a Duress or Thoughtseize to match you can Duress them on turn 1 and try to follow up with a twist for 3 the next turn.
The randomness in discarding has its pros and cons. you've pointed out the cons but remember that if you somehow strip them of their mana sources in hand you are doing great because slowing your opponent down is one of the main targets playing this deck. Now all that is left is getting a Tarmogoyf or Confidant(s) out.
Wastes+Strip are good yes, and Null Rod is also a must. I agree that Deeds are too slow, they are better than Kegs but I also believe Deeds are inferior to other cards.
With green you have access to cards like Krosan Grip to fight Vault/Keys or Oxidizes to blow up artifacts.
I never advocated Twist over Will because they are good in 1 deck. Yawgmoth's Wills can bring out a ritual powered Twist that basically destroys your opponents whole hand. We don't need to cast a Duress effect first because he let Will resolve.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Im back to the mono black deck.  The main problem obviously will be contending with Stax' lock pieces.   Pretty much the entire side board can be brought in to fight this (only the most relevant ones would be though).  The same can be said for fighting an Ichorid Deck.   I simply do no not have Negators - they would be in the Hyppies slot if I did.  I edited the list - changes are in bold.

2 Withered Wretch
4 Hyppies
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Null Rod
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
3 Mutavaults
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
14 Swamp
5 Strips

SB
3x Extirpate - combo and Ichorid, oath
3x Crucible of Worlds - Stax
3x Darkblast - Welder
3x Tormod's Crypt - Ichorid
3x Pithing Needle - Ichorid, bazaar

[chubah]

Im back to the mono black deck.

2 Withered Wretch
4 Hyppies
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Null Rod
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

4 Dark Ritual
3 Mutavaults
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
14 Swamp
5 Strips

SB

-3 Mutavault
-2 withered Wretch
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Null Rod
+4 Sinkhole (Fast disruption combined with 5 Strips for awesome tempo advantage)
+3 Mishra's Factory (Much better than Mutavaults)

Wretches are a meta choice in my opinion, thus more suitable for the Sideboard. Vampiric is useless in this deck and it costs you 2 precious life and -1card in your hand. I also believe 4 Null Rods are too many. With 4 Bobs you will get more than one Null Rod which is a dead card in multiples so 3 is the perfect number.

Something else I would like to add: I believe Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant is a bad combination if you are not playing Divining Tops for library manipulation, the damage you will deal to yourself is just too much, I would rather run 4x Cabal Therapy or Hymn to Tourach instead.

[policehq]

Roat you're not plugging Hymn vs. Mind Twist in very many practical situations. These decks typically have Strip effects and Factories, some have Sol Ring/Mana Crypt.

Plus I still can't get where you possibly figure turn 4 or 5 is the earliest time for a protected Mind Twist. Consider this:
Turn 1
Swamp Duress
Turn 2
Swamp Dark Rit Mind Twist

And these situations are only required game 1 versus blue.

Really I think your quote would only be correct if you said "in a monoblack deck with no off-colored mana sources and a Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory in play...." etc. etc.

[dark burn]

No way is mind twist good enough.  Turn 1 rit, duress, hymn is so much better than rit, twist.  Turn 2 rit, hymn, vamp/2 drop is insane compared to turn 2 rit, twist.  Twist was played because the only hand disruption was twist.  Once hymn was available it became 4 hymn/2-3 twist.  As soon as we got duress it became 4 duress/4 hymn.  Now we have the option of duress, hymn and thoughtseize.  Mind twist is worse than all of those options.  Even if you go first turn rit, rit, twist you only gain +1 card advantage.  I would much rather go turn 1 rit, rit, duress, hymn, confidant/shade/null rod/demonic/vamp.

[policehq]

I'm disappointed I have to argue the power of Mind Twist in a thread that condones Nantuko Shade, but be that as it may, it doesn't really matter whether Mind Twist is slow, or a good combination with Rituals (really, it isn't). The fact is that putting your opponent in top deck mode, which is very easy with a protected Mind Twist, is a good thing, often game-winning.

[dark burn]

You will not be able to put your opponent into a top deck situation with mind twist without putting yourself into the same situation.  And once you are in a top deck situation with an opponent, they will win because they have much more card draw than you.  With mind twist you get rid of their hand and then have no pressure to put on them.  Then they just topdeck a tutor, TFK, Intuition, AK, Recall, Brainstorm, ponder, senis top, bazaar, goblin welder, dark confidant, yawgs will, or other possibilities and are right back in the game.  Meanwhile, all you could topdeck to get cards back would be a confidant.  Good luck winning topdeck wars.

I would always prefer the power of 1-2 precision duress effects + a creature threat than randomly getting rid of draw spell, land, mox, and leaving a bomb in the opponents hand.

Another thing that is bad about mind twist (and hymn and thoughtseize) is that it is misdirectable.  Misdirect is being played more and more.  If you are ever hit with misdirect its game over.

[policehq]

Misdirect is getting played more and more? Where? In what decks? Anyway you have about 6-8 discard effects on top of 1-2 Mind Twist; you don't just run it out there first turn with Dark Rituals game 1 blindly (typically).

First of all, one of the goals of Sui-Black is to land an early Confidant. Typically when I'm playing mono-black Suicide Tendrils I have a grip of 4-7 cards the whole game because of Confidant and Night's Whispers. Then I have Demonic Tutor, 2 Grim Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor to get Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Consultation to get unrestricted goodies. Even still, a good beater or two should be in play. If you end up with zero cards after a Mind Twist, and you can't beat your opponent, it's probably your fault for how you're playing or how you built your deck.

But really if you'd rather play with Nantuko Shade, be my guest.

Then they just topdeck a tutor, TFK, Intuition, AK, Recall, Brainstorm, ponder, senis top, bazaar, goblin welder, dark confidant, yawgs will, or other possibilities and are right back in the game.  Meanwhile, all you could topdeck to get cards back would be a confidant.

I'm putting this quote in my post just for posterity. Surely you're going to realize how ridiculous this is. All this deck has is Confidant? And what deck would I be playing that features all of the other cards, except that one really weird Cerebral Assassin deck that probably didn't top 8 a tournament a few months ago?

For reference, here is a sui-black list with Mind Twist and testing.
4 Dark Confidant

4 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Grim Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
3 Tendrils of Agony

4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mind Twist
3 Null Rod

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp

[dark burn]

    The deck you just posted cant be classified as a suicide deck at all.  It is just a tendrils control deck with confidants.  The deck posted on this forum looks nothing like your deck. Why would you consider this a suicide deck?  Where is the suicide of it?  I cant believe you have been arguing for mind twist in the deck posted based on testing with your own deck, which is nothing like the deck posted by Kaiser!!!!  You even named the deck differently, calling it Suicide Tendrils!!  That should have clued you in that you are playing a deck based on winning with tendrils of agony.  Suicide Black decks win through beating with efficient creatures.  The way your deck is set up, your plan should probably be to just combo out with will every game.
    You say you should have a beater or 2 out by the time you mind twist.  You only have 4 confidants in the deck !  I have no idea why you are playing the twist even in your posted deck.  You already have 8 duress effects and 3 null rods to disrupt the opp.  Once you duress on turns 1-2 why would you even need to mind twist?  Their hand should be crap anyway.  Great, you twisted away lands and other useless cards.  This still leaves you open to any topdeck.  I believe that you would be better served to add in another bazaar and another null rod instead of the twists. 
     Yes, the decks posted by Kaiser only have Dark Confidants as their card draw.  How am I supposed to know that the deck you are talking about has necro, bazaar, and nights whisper as card draw.  Guess I should have read your list straight from your mind.
      No one deck has all those card draws in them.  Here, I will make it a little easier for you.

Tezz plays:
Tutors
TFK
Intu/AK
Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
Top
Confidant
Will
Remora

Stax plays:
Welder
Bazaar
Top

TPS plays:
Ancestral
Gifts
FOF
Tutors
Yawgs will
Brainstorm
Ponder
Necro
draw7s

All these cards are relevant topdecks.  They are all played in the major decks you will be facing.  You believe that you play mind twist and oops game over.  Thats only true if you have a way to actually kill them and they have no mana available.  Otherwise, they just draw out of it and win.  If you let any deck in vintage 2 turns unmolested, they will win.  You have to follow up the twist with something or its a waste of time.

Realistically, how many cards do you want to hit with mind twist?  You say twist isnt really a good combo with rituals.  If you arent using rituals to power out mind twists, what the hell are you doing?  What, tapping 3 lands and a mox to get rid of 3 random cards?  If you are that late in the game you had better have a rock solid plan for winning the next turn.  There is no point in the game that twist would be better than a hymn to tourach.

[policehq]

Have you ever been Mind Twisted? Did you win easily two turns later? Cut out the hyperbole; that's like saying every Magic game ends on turns 2 and 3. Realistically games are more drawn out, and realistically a lot of decks don't "just win" unmolested in two turns, especially with a grip of zero.

I can see how it would be confusing since I referenced his original post at times, and others my deck, but the point is the original deck is crap. Suicide needs Tendrils of Agony just like Sligh used to need Cursed Scroll, so the second list he posted is worse.

The deck I posted has 8 "duress" effects, but really Cabal Therapy is more of a storm enabler/Confidant-sacrificing engine (as need arises). It is not effective as an early discard spell except as the second one played. The other 6 clear the way for the win, whatever method that may be.

   Yes, the decks posted by Kaiser    only have Dark Confidants as their card draw.

Even with the decks that Kaiser posted, he has Demonic Tutor, Dark Confidant, Demonic Consultation, Yawgmoth's Will, and Necropotence (excluding the second inferior list of course).

Great, you twisted away lands and other useless cards.  This still leaves you open to any topdeck.

Mind Twisting lands isn't a bad play at all with a Null Rod in play, and it certainly helps prevent the worst case topdecks (which are still based on luck anyway; even a draw spell only allows for other topdecks).

Tezz plays:
Tutors
TFK
Intu/AK
Recall
Brainstorm
Ponder
Top
Confidant
Will
Remora

Show me that list.

You believe that you play mind twist and oops game over.

I don't have any clue where you got the idea that it's easy to win after a resolved Mind Twist targeting you, but it's not from testing experience. I don't think it's game over, but it helps a lot. I think a Mind Twist for 3-4 is pretty perfect midgame, and clears the hand of a lot of decks. And realistically, this situation only comes up in so many games, because the deck wins around turn 4 anyway.

[chubah]

All these cards are relevant topdecks.  They are all played in the major decks you will be facing.  You believe that you play mind twist and oops game over.  Thats only true if you have a way to actually kill them and they have no mana available.  Otherwise, they just draw out of it and win.  If you let any deck in vintage 2 turns unmolested, they will win.  You have to follow up the twist with something or its a waste of time.

Realistically, how many cards do you want to hit with mind twist?  You say twist isnt really a good combo with rituals.  If you arent using rituals to power out mind twists, what the hell are you doing?  What, tapping 3 lands and a mox to get rid of 3 random cards?  If you are that late in the game you had better have a rock solid plan for winning the next turn.  There is no point in the game that twist would be better than a hymn to tourach.

Mind twist is a fun card, I love it. It might be unnecessary if you are already packing Duress/Hymns, but it's a great card nonetheless and most of all fun to play. ^^

[reaperbong]

A resolved Mind Twist can be the most devastating play with Dark Rituals (a given) and colorless mana. if you run any artifact mana it's a bomb. i run a Jet/Lotus but also a Mana Crypt in Sui mainly due to Mind Twist, also because i still use Negator and it's great for doubling up on Dark Confidant/Night's Whisper/Bitterblossom/Diabolic Edict by turn 2.