[Free Article]The Most Dominant Engine in Vintage History: The March/April

[Nehptis]

But here we get it all.  Magic WAS designed as a game of possibilities.

You proved my point.  As a Vintage idealist, you want and expect to "get it all".

Would you really have a problem with Iso Scepter + Twiddle + Vault?  Somehow I doubt you would be calling it the most powerful thing to ever see play and the first thing in modern vintage to necessitate power level banning.

No problem with that at all.  And that's my point.  Read that link I posted about the triple constraint.  We just can't have it all.  Vault/Key, with no power level errata and a diverse metagame is wanting it all, which is not where we find ourselves.  If you want over the top powerful interactions like Vault/Key then you sacrifice meta diversity.  If you want diversity without banning cards then errata the ones that are too powerful.  If you don't want to set a precedent of power-level errata changes then certain cards will need to be banned to perserve meta-diversity.

[nineisnoone]

Vintage didn't start out as Vintage.  Essentially it was a casual "Standard" scene.  There was a small set of cards like Vault that were created together to function together as part of a concise set of cards; very much the same design approach that developers take to new set releases for Standard.  Now to say that those same cards should still be allowed to function in a cardpool that is vastly greater than the original is frankly absurd.

What?  When Vintage was Standard, it wasn't "Vintage" it was STANDARD. 

[M.Solymossy]

Why is it that EVERY person I see argue about Banning Vault doesn't play vault?  I think the desire is for their sub-par workshop or Aggro decks to be more competitive than our Tezz Deck.  Newsflash Guys:  The Tezz Players will still beat you with Slaver or Drain Tendrils (Look at champs).

It's actually starting to make TMD unreadable with all the Time Vault banter.   If you don't like Time Vault, modify your deck so you have a more favorable matchup.  It's not hard. 

[Shock Wave]

Why is it that EVERY person I see argue about Banning Vault doesn't play vault?  I think the desire is for their sub-par workshop or Aggro decks to be more competitive than our Tezz Deck.  Newsflash Guys:  The Tezz Players will still beat you with Slaver or Drain Tendrils (Look at champs).

Perhaps, but without the Vault/Key combo, Drain players will not get as many free wins as they currently do.

If you don't like Time Vault, modify your deck so you have a more favorable matchup.  It's not hard.

That is the same argument that was presented by many people in defence of Flash and Trinisphere.

"Why not just play Extirpate?"
"Why not just play Leylines?"
"Why not just play Wasteland?"

There is always a foil to very powerful cards and archetypes. People are aware of this, but this "solution" creates a bigger problem. There comes a point where it no longer makes sense to hedge against a certain archetype because the metagame has been reduced to deck X and decks Y, where X is the overpowered deck and decks Y are those that are geared to beat the best deck.

We could have "adapted" to Flash and we could have "adapted" to Trinisphere. The reason changes were made was because it did not make sense to adapt, as the consensus was that the format had become "unfun". When the dreaded "unfun" word starts to rear its ugly head in numbers, then it is likely that changes need to be made. This is the predicament we find ourselves in again.

I love Mana Drain as much as any control player and I have been playing this game for a very long time. In the past, I have always been advocating in Mana Drain's defense, but I genuinely think that the Drain shell has become too powerful. In addition to all the most powerful cards in the game (Will, Tinker, etc), it now has the luxury of a combo finish that is easy to assemble and ends the game immediately. Really, control should not be able to end the game as early as Turn 2 as frequently as it currently can. It should have to struggle a bit to win. With the advent of Key/Vault, we are pretty much blurring the lines between Combo and Control, and this is not a good thing. We saw this problem with Gifts and it needed to be addressed for the same reason.

[mike_bergeron]

Why is it that EVERY person I see argue about Banning Vault doesn't play vault?  I think the desire is for their sub-par workshop or Aggro decks to be more competitive than our Tezz Deck.  Newsflash Guys:  The Tezz Players will still beat you with Slaver or Drain Tendrils (Look at champs).

It's actually starting to make TMD unreadable with all the Time Vault banter.   If you don't like Time Vault, modify your deck so you have a more favorable matchup.  It's not hard. 

I think Soly is right on this point, and agree with him.  Hey- I love playing mountains and standstill, but if vintage gets reduced to only those types of decks, no one would play anymore.  We should give the DCI solid info to work with so they can make informed decisions about the format.  If the DCI continues to restrict and ban (although unlikely to ban) until standstill is the best deck in the format, we are screwed.

[Shock Wave]

I think Soly is right on this point, and agree with him.  Hey- I love playing mountains and standstill, but if vintage gets reduced to only those types of decks, no one would play anymore.  We should give the DCI solid info to work with so they can make informed decisions about the format.  If the DCI continues to restrict and ban (although unlikely to ban) until standstill is the best deck in the format, we are screwed.

The DCI will continue to make changes according to how the community voices its opinion on the state of the format. We have observed this in the past and can assume it will likely continue this way.

Steve's article is highlighting a problem similar to those concluding with restrictions in the past. His article is providing the "solid info" you are referring to. I am not quite sure what "Mountains and Standstill" have to do with anything. Perhaps you can elaborate?

[JACO]

We could have "adapted" to Flash and we could have "adapted" to Trinisphere. The reason changes were made was because it did not make sense to adapt, as the consensus was that the format had become "unfun". When the dreaded "unfun" word starts to rear its ugly head in numbers, then it is likely that changes need to be made. This is the predicament we find ourselves in again.

Rich, as much as you know I love you, you more than any person I can remember have consistently been the one beating the 'fun/unfun' drum for the past few years. How many people really think the card Standstill is 'fun' to play against? NOBODY. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY. It's one of the best draw engines in Vintage (and Legacy), and is unfun to play against, and leads to you winning a high percentage of games. Does that mean we should restrict it?

I love Mana Drain as much as any control player and I have been playing this game for a very long time. In the past, I have always been advocating in Mana Drain's defense, but I genuinely think that the Drain shell has become too powerful. In addition to all the most powerful cards in the game (Will, Tinker, etc), it now has the luxury of a combo finish that is easy to assemble and ends the game immediately. Really, control should not be able to end the game as early as Turn 2 as frequently as it currently can. It should have to struggle a bit to win. With the advent of Key/Vault, we are pretty much blurring the lines between Combo and Control, and this is not a good thing. We saw this problem with Gifts and it needed to be addressed for the same reason.

Like you, I think that Voltaic Key/Time Vault is the reason that Drain decks are performing so well right now. Unlike you, I don't think the Drain shell is the reason they are performing well. Voltaic Key + Time Vault is the best combo available right now, but you honestly don't need Mana Drain. It can be fit into a Trinket Mage shell, a Duress/Confidant/Mind Twist shell (yes, I've already top 4'd with that in back to back tournaments months ago in a field full of Drains), and even a TPS/Grim Long shell. The problem is if the DCI bans Time Vault those decks can just do the exact same thing with Tinker, or Painter/Grindstone, or whatever else is the best combo available.

[M.Solymossy]

The problem is if they DO change Time Vault, or Thirst for Knowledge, we easily revert to Painter.

[Shock Wave]

Rich, as much as you know I love you, you more than any person I can remember have consistently been the one beating the 'fun/unfun' drum for the past few years. How many people really think the card Standstill is 'fun' to play against? NOBODY. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY. It's one of the best draw engines in Vintage (and Legacy), and is unfun to play against, and leads to you winning a high percentage of games. Does that mean we should restrict it?

If a sufficient number of people thought that Standstill was so problematic and awful to play against that it should be neutered, then yes, action should be taken against it. Of course, that would never happen because it just is not good enough to get that sort of attention. I think you are under the impression that I believe that if *I* personally think a card is unfun, it should be restricted. Either that, or you think my point is that a card being "unfun" is reason enough alone to restrict said card. Both assumptions would be incorrect. I have long stated that if a card or an archetype satisfies several criteria, "unfun-ness" being one of those criteria, then action should be taken against it. Keep in mind that while small pockets of the Vintage community complain regardless of what action the DCI takes, there have been instances where a large number of players feel there is a problem with the format and that it has become "unfun". Two examples of such instances are the Trinisphere and Flash eras. I do not believe it is a coincidence that a large number of players believed the format to be "unfun" and action ended up being taken by the DCI. Like it or not, "fun" does matter, but defining it does not. All that matters is whether or not the DCI believes the format is fun. If they don't believe it is, you can expect changes to be made.

Like you, I think that Voltaic Key/Time Vault is the reason that Drain decks are performing so well right now. Unlike you, I don't think the Drain shell is the reason they are performing well.

You mean to say that I believe the Vault/Key combo performs well because of the Drain shell? I don't recall ever saying that, but if I did, it is not what I intended to communicate. I submit that Drain decks are going to be powerful regardless of Vault/Key, but that particular combo pushes them over the edge of the acceptable power threshold for a control archetype.

Voltaic Key + Time Vault is the best combo available right now, but you honestly don't need Mana Drain. It can be fit into a Trinket Mage shell, a Duress/Confidant/Mind Twist shell (yes, I've already top 4'd with that in back to back tournaments months ago in a field full of Drains), and even a TPS/Grim Long shell. The problem is if the DCI bans Time Vault those decks can just do the exact same thing with Tinker, or Painter/Grindstone, or whatever else is the best combo available.

There will always be a "best" combo/finisher for control. What the argument comes down to is what is an acceptable finisher. In my opinion, Tinker/whatever is fine, Welder/<insert heinous artifact here> is also fine, but Vault/Key is not. It has the potential to come online far too quickly and allows for Drain decks to randomly kill you on turn 2 and sometimes event turn 1. Drain archetypes should not be able to do that with any respectable frequency. That's why we have combo decks.

The problem is if they DO change Time Vault, or Thirst for Knowledge, we easily revert to Painter.

That may be enough to make Drain decks fair again. Painter/Grindstone is much weaker than Vault/Key.

[mike_bergeron]

I think Soly is right on this point, and agree with him.  Hey- I love playing mountains and standstill, but if vintage gets reduced to only those types of decks, no one would play anymore.  We should give the DCI solid info to work with so they can make informed decisions about the format.  If the DCI continues to restrict and ban (although unlikely to ban) until standstill is the best deck in the format, we are screwed.

I am not quite sure what "Mountains and Standstill" have to do with anything. Perhaps you can elaborate?

I was just trying to say that I love to play aggressive decks like TMWA, Fish or maybe even "Elves!". Not everyone likes these decks, but I do. If the DCI continues to restrict cards until all we are left with are decks like R/G beats, TMWA, Fish, etc., we are in trouble- because more people like to play with drain than like to play with kird ape.

[Purple Hat]

as much as I didn't like playing flash I think you'd be hard pressed to find general agreement that there was a "flash era" if you mean anything other than "a period in which flash decks existed" by that.  And many people found that time period very fun to play in, even though they found some of the deck constraints created by the existence of flash and ichorid annoying, because many people liked playing with the gush engine.  This is still the case, many people find having to dedicate 8 sideboard slots to ichorid annoying.

[Nehptis]

Vintage didn't start out as Vintage.  Essentially it was a casual "Standard" scene.  There was a small set of cards like Vault that were created together to function together as part of a concise set of cards; very much the same design approach that developers take to new set releases for Standard.  Now to say that those same cards should still be allowed to function in a cardpool that is vastly greater than the original is frankly absurd.

What?  When Vintage was Standard, it wasn't "Vintage" it was STANDARD. 

I fail to understand your "what"? Are youjust re-stating what I said?  If you missed my point then read it again.  It's all there, as clear as day.

The problem is if they DO change Time Vault, or Thirst for Knowledge, we easily revert to Painter.

I think you are under-estimating the power of vault/Key and over-estimating the power of Painter / Stone.  They are at least a few degrees of broken-ness apart.

[M.Solymossy]

Yeah my point is that once key/vault is gone, people will complain about the next best thing that the control players revert to.  This format needs *MORE* deck development, not less.

Unfortunately, I no longer have my premium account, so this is all based on what I believe is fair/unfair, but I do believe we could get these cards back safely:

    Balance
I don't necessarily agree with people that unrestricting this card will be okay.  I do believe that 5c stax will be absurd with this card.  Being able to wrath the board is too powerful an effect for 2 mana, especially nuking lands and ditching cards in hand.  I honestly think there will be a Balance deck that uses Trade Routes to armaggeddon the board.  But my fear is 5c Stax.

    Entomb
Lets give the dragon players what they want.  Maybe Cerebral Assassin/reanimator style decks too.  

    Fact or Fiction
This card is busted Good, but most blue decks will want to run 3 or 4 to capitalize on them.  This makes things like Chalice/Null Rod/just downright beating peoples faces in a much better strategy, since these bad boys cost 4.   Even Thirst for Knowledge costs 3 and is hard to play against Aggro or Stax.
    
Flash
Without Brainstorm or Scroll, the deck will be a contender, but not the busted turn 1-2 beast that it was.  (Contender considering I am a proponent of unrestricting ponder)

Frantic Search
This thing was restricted in what, the prehistoric ages?   It does busted things with Tolarian Academy.   It's actually card disadvantage though.  This could allow some interesting Leviat style decks, though.

Grim Monolith
I'm very much opposed to giving any deck access to 1 Free Mana.  Especially with Voltaic Key existing, maybe a Mud Deck would start playing these.  I know Dan Carp played Grim Monolith in Guilded Claw, and it powered out some quick Juggernauts along with a workshop.
 
Gush
I'm opposed to this strictly because Imperial Seal, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll still do exist, and you also will have 4 Facts and 4 Ponder's in my dream world.

Ponder
I think wizards should let us play with 4 of these without 4 brainstorm, before making this restriction.  I believe this would give fish and combo decks a boost, without helping Control too much.  Most control players don't even play it.  I believe the card is made specifically for finding a mana source on turn 1, or a bomb late game.  Although that works fine for control too, it doesn't put 2 fresh counterspells in your hand or hide them from duress at instant speed.

Regrowth
I don't believe this card has the power to remain restricted.  At the same time, I am wary of letting someone regrowth Ancestral Recall and draw 15 cards off it.  However, this card does come with several drawbecks:  It requires you already either be ahead (By casting a spell you want regrowthed) or behind (your opponent duressed the spell you wanted to cast).  Regrowth would be best suited I believe in an Aggro shell, to regrowth Duress effects, a countered Null Rod, or Time Walk.

[nineisnoone]

Yeah my point is that once key/vault is gone, people will complain about the next best thing that the control players revert to.  This format needs *MORE* deck development, not less.

100% agree here.

Gush
I'm opposed to this strictly because Imperial Seal, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll still do exist, and you also will have 4 Facts and 4 Ponder's in my dream world.

Where exactly do you see the problem with Gush occuring? 
TTS? GAT? Tyrant Oath? Just too frequently played?

I'm not sure any of those decks were really problematic.  Without Merchant Scroll AND Brainstorm, I'm even sure they are good enough. 

(And yes, I am the insane man who thinks Scroll, but never Brainstorm, could be unrestricted).

Gush
Regrowth
I don't believe this card has the power to remain restricted.  At the same time, I am wary of letting someone regrowth Ancestral Recall and draw 15 cards off it.  However, this card does come with several drawbecks:  It requires you already either be ahead (By casting a spell you want regrowthed) or behind (your opponent duressed the spell you wanted to cast).  Regrowth would be best suited I believe in an Aggro shell, to regrowth Duress effects, a countered Null Rod, or Time Walk.

I think it would be best in a control shell.  Maybe a combo shell, but I'm a horrible combo deck builder so I can't imagine how that'd work. 

But with Brainstorm out of the format, I could see this coming off.  Outside of Lotus, Recall, and Brainstorm, there aren't too many cards that I worry about getting a second play.  FoW/Duress are the things that come to my mind next, but that isn't especially scary.

Tutor for Recall and then functionally chaining Regrowths off them sounds a bit scary though.  But I think if that was the high-end of the brokeness it presents, it would be manegable.

[M.Solymossy]

My problem with gush is that a Control deck could easily run them.  Even with 1 gush, I ran them with Drain Tendrils before Tezzeret was Legal, and had marginal Success with it and fastbond.  Fastbond for example, is fine without Gush, as it makes your Yawgmoth's Will and every draw spell *INSANE*.  Drain Tendrils loved Fastbond, and it seemed like the best Drain Deck before Tezzeret became legal.   If they unrestrict Gush, and leave Time Vault and Key legal, I will easily play a Tezzeret deck with 4x gush and a fastbond.  I have actually considered adding a fastbond to the deck already, because Stax and Aggro are more of a problem, and Fastbond [stated again] makes Yawgmoth's Will that much better.  As does Gush.   Drawing Free cards, keeping your mana safe from waste effects, AND having a win condition that costs a total of 4 makes gush completely unfair.

[Shock Wave]

as much as I didn't like playing flash I think you'd be hard pressed to find general agreement that there was a "flash era" if you mean anything other than "a period in which flash decks existed" by that.

Flash era = A time at which Flash was both competitive and was very capable of winning the game on Turn 0, Turn 1, and Turn 2.

And many people found that time period very fun to play in, even though they found some of the deck constraints created by the existence of flash and ichorid annoying, because many people liked playing with the gush engine.  This is still the case, many people find having to dedicate 8 sideboard slots to ichorid annoying.

Yes, some people did find that period very fun to play in. In the end, Wizards decided that there was a problem. Do you find it a coincidence that many people found Flash to be "unfun" and the DCI took action against it?

Ichorid and Flash are different beasts. Ichorid does not pose the same problems as Flash did. Let's not go down the Flash road again though. The deck is gone, and the point of my post was to illustrate that when a significant amount of the community starts describing Vintage as "unfun", history shows that the DCI takes action. That was the only purpose of bringing Flash and Trinisphere into the discussion. What defines a Flash "era" really has no bearing on the discussion, so let's not split hairs about it.

[Purple Hat]

I'm not trying to split hairs, calling it the "flash era" makes it out to have been a time when there was general agreement that flash was pervasive, problematic and unfun.  I don't remember that ever happening.  Flash was never so heavily played as to make that the case.  Probably because Flash was such a linear deck that it was uninteresting to play, but that's beside the point.  In that time period a great many players found the format rather interesting and fun regardless of the presence of Flash.

I don't find it a coincidence that flash was restricted.  I find it a mistake to restrict 5 cards at once, but flash would have been on my list.  I would have taken a far more moderated approach, but the power level of flash was clearly high enough to justify restriction.

I have no interest in seeing cards banned, which means we need to open up other powerful strategies through unrestriction.  I don't really care if every deck in the format adopts vault-key as a win condition, as long as those decks don't all play out the same way.  I don't think it's that vault-key is too fast, I think it's that everything else is too slow.  I just don't see many other viable shells right now.  I think restrictions have gone too far, hopefully we can convince the DCI to pull back a bit so we can have consistent decks that don't contain drains and thirst for knowledge again.

[Smmenen]

I guess this article is now free.

I hope that non-premium readers take the opportunity to check this out. 

 Enjoy!