Extreme Naya Opinions and Development

[JudasKilled]

So I wasnt much of a vintage player until about 2 months ago.  I thought Extreme Games in the Round Lake Beach area was running a type 2 tourney on a sunday showed up to find out they were running type 1.  Not having played the format in 14 years I asked the owner Eric for a random deck.  He gave me a R/w aggr deck that ran painters servant, price of progress and mox monkeys.  I missed top 8ing by a very nominal tibreaker percentage.

I realised the deck was sub par, not enough disruption and in general weak and added green and went a much more disruptive route with the deck.  The next tourney I got 3rd place.

The next tournament with even more changed I won a time walk.  5 rounds and cut to top 8.  2 game losses 0 match losses.

Last sunday I didnt lose a single game the entire tournament and won a Library.

Heres the lists current evolotution and due to multiple emails from people I decided to put it up for discussion.

Heres a viable and effective aggro deck that seems to do pretty well in vintage.  Tezz is coinflip depending on there build, and dredge/oath is rough but besides that I feel confidant against absolutely anything.  So feel free folks let me know what you think or ways to improve.

Extreme Naya:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wild nactl
4 Figure of Destiny
Mox pearl,emerald,ruby
Black Lotus

3 Null Rod
3 Gadock Teeg
4 Goyf
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Quasali Pridemage
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Aven Mindcensor

4 Windswept
4 Wooded foothills
4 taiga
4 plateu
3 savanah

Sb:
4 reb
1 pyroblast
3 pithing needle
3 krosan grips
1 null rod

[Sean Ryan]

Congrats on pwning with beatz in Vintage!

Here are some suggestions:

Increase the mana denial
Bring the 4th Null Rod to the maindeck.  It's your most powerful peice of disruption.
Find room for Waste Lands.  You can easliy cut a savannah and a Plateau, not sure on what else though.

Things that I would cut to make room for these changes:
4th the Canonist
4th Figure o Destiny
2 lands
1 ???

for your SB I would cut the REBS/Blast for Ichorid hate since your Drain match already seems good.  The SB Null Rod could be replaced by a 4th Krosan Grip to help with Oath as well.

[swawagon]

I do like the list a lot, my notebook has a list a few cards off.

Vexing Shusher is pretty solid in the long term and close to making the cut.

Price of Progress  and even Hellspark Elemental can each provide (usually) 6 damage per one card for an even more sligh type build.
But Lightning Bolt has more flexibility being able to target opposing creatures.

I like that Inkwell has replaced Colossus in many other builds as Naya can race 7 damage, while Colossus is usually just a little too big. Tinker/big guy is a little bit of a problem, but of Aven Mindsensor and Red Blasts are probably enough. Besides you want the deck to just pound and hope they don't find Tinker in time, thus playing defense against a possible Tinker is probably playing the deck wrong. This a very fast aggro deck!

SB I like Unicorns over K. Grip (I assume for Oath matches) as it costs less, cannot be Duressed, and it beats. Because 4 Pridemages and 3 Tinstreets is a lot of Artifact (stax and more) hate. And Null Rod is artifact obviously Time Vault hate too.

I think people may question Figure of Destiny, but not those that see them played. They are a very impressive one drop!

12 cards that only beat, with no disruptive abilities (Figure of Destiny, Wild Nactl, Tarmogoyf) seems like a lot. But arguably they are the most efficient clocks at the 1 and 2 drop creature slots in the game and can end games rapidly. All can get to be pretty big creatures!

Also Mogg Fanatic isn't a bad sideboard option. Perhaps Pithing Needle is more flexible and/or more useful against Ichorid, but Mogg Fanatic can be kept in mind also.

[JudasKilled]

my major concern with the wastes/strip is mana constraints unless i wanna cot mox's which i dont think is an option.  Theres alot of cards in the deck that require g/w etc , itys wotrh considering though, how many wastes?

[Beralt]

Seems like you might have problems vs Ichorid - you do run critters so that is going to help some but it's still going to be nasty especially if they run something like Ancestor's Chosen.  The Pithing needles will help but Ichorid is probably going to bounce those - curious if you have much Ichorid in your meta?

[JudasKilled]

average ichorid amount seems to be about avg meta seems 2 be
1/10 manless ichorid
2/10 u/w or u/w/b fish
2/10 tezz
1/10 storm
1-2/10 shop/stax
and the rest random

id like to improve my dredge match up but besides pithing  and putting creatures into my yard not sure how, and honestly i dont really see dredge as a real contender despite being tier, it will often top 8 but rarely win which is why i se it as crap.  My opinion is a good showing is nothing, a win matters.

[smasher]

The thing about your mana base is you don't run any basics already so when you fetch a land its always a 2 color land. I don't see a problem in cutting 2x taiga, 2x plateau, 1x savannah. Running 8 fetches, 6 duals gives you access to 12 of each mana. 13 of each counting moxes and of course you get lotus for one shot of any. This would open up 5 slots to run the wasteland/strip mine package. This will lead to less dead draws throughout the game as you are getting 5 more mana denial cards in the deck.

It might be worth testing mogg fanatic instead of lightning bolt as well. Gives you an edge on ichorid. Also if you had to bolt something like welder, a mogg fanatic would have got in a damage prior to saccing to shoot it.

Good luck

Smasher

[chief]

Smasher's idea on the manabase will wreck your world if you try it.  Your colored sources are more important than your fetchlands in this deck.  I would cut down to six fetches and cut a taiga and a canonist.  You can fit in three wastes and a strip that way if that's what you're looking to do.

[JudasKilled]

secondary problem is then i probably have 2 cut figure

[JudasKilled]

I could cut figured for mogg fanatics cut 1 cannonisty 1 fetch, 1 taiga, and run 3 moggs instaed of 4 fer 1 strip 3 wastes

[smasher]

Smasher's idea on the manabase will wreck your world if you try it.  Your colored sources are more important than your fetchlands in this deck.  I would cut down to six fetches and cut a taiga and a canonist.  You can fit in three wastes and a strip that way if that's what you're looking to do.

Colored mana is important in any deck but in a deck with a lot of 1 and 2 drops and the only 3 drops being 1 playset maindeck and some k grips in the board I don't see how it is going to completely wreck the manabase. As stated earlier he isn't running basics so I really don't see why you need 4x of any dual when you fetch and just need 1 left in the deck to fetch it. I could see tweaking the number of duals and fetches to fit the color of spells he is casting. Playing a wasteland and having to tap it for colorless to cast a spell doesn't seem horrible when 25 cards between main and sideboard conatain colorless mana. Most of them are in the maindeck already.

I'll go ahead and agree that 4 total strip effects is probably right over the full 5 so you don't get double wasteland hands as your only mana sources as often.

In a deck with no card drawing such as dark confidant or blue spells or skullclamp I think playing more fetches is good not worse. If your first two lands you play are 2 fetch lands you are increasing your chances to draw non lands in a deck that really doesn't want more than 3 lands in play. Getting out the 4th land will basically let you dump your last 2 2 drops into play and be in topdeck mode.

[vassago]

Colored mana is important in any deck but in a deck with a lot of 1 and 2 drops and the only 3 drops being 1 playset maindeck and some k grips in the board I don't see how it is going to completely wreck the manabase. As stated earlier he isn't running basics so I really don't see why you need 4x of any dual when you fetch and just need 1 left in the deck to fetch it. I could see tweaking the number of duals and fetches to fit the color of spells he is casting. Playing a wasteland and having to tap it for colorless to cast a spell doesn't seem horrible when 25 cards between main and sideboard conatain colorless mana. Most of them are in the maindeck already.


In a deck with no card drawing such as dark confidant or blue spells or skullclamp I think playing more fetches is good not worse. If your first two lands you play are 2 fetch lands you are increasing your chances to draw non lands in a deck that really doesn't want more than 3 lands in play. Getting out the 4th land will basically let you dump your last 2 2 drops into play and be in topdeck mode.

Smasher is absolutely right.  The reverse card draw effect that fetches give is kind of needed when you are playing no draw spells of any kind. Its also frees up room while fixing the draw, which has already been stated. 

Also, if you fit the fourth null rod in the main you could cut a grip or the fifth blast out of the board and fit in tormod's crypt or relic in the board for dredge.

[chief]

I'm speaking from experience, not theory.  By and large, a 6 fetch manabase vs an 8 fetch manabase will play out identically in the matchups where you don't need to worry about your opponents affecting your mana production.  The minimal effect of 2 additional fetches deck thinning is negligible compared to the ability to fearlessly and aggressively fetch out your colors against an opponent who is packing wastelands as well.  The suggestion to run only six colored sources will run you out of one color in these matches much more frequently than you might think, and that can easily cost you games you should otherwise win.

[smasher]

I'm speaking from experience, not theory.  By and large, a 6 fetch manabase vs an 8 fetch manabase will play out identically in the matchups where you don't need to worry about your opponents affecting your mana production.  The minimal effect of 2 additional fetches deck thinning is negligible compared to the ability to fearlessly and aggressively fetch out your colors against an opponent who is packing wastelands as well.  The suggestion to run only six colored sources will run you out of one color in these matches much more frequently than you might think, and that can easily cost you games you should otherwise win.

The flaw in this argument is you are talking about a hypothetical situation that is rarely going to come up. Just assuming you go the generic 2x of each dual that gives you a potential of 4 of each color. Each dual can be grabbed with either of the fetches as well. In order to be completely locked out of a color you need to have someone running all 5 strip effects and have them draw 4 of them. Alternatively they could be running 4 strip effects and would need to draw all of them. I am not going to even consider a crucible/strip strategy because at this point it doesn't matter if your entire manabase is capable of producing the color you need.

If we are playing in a metagame where wasteland is very prominent then discussing how to fit some basics into the deck is the next line of discussion for the manabase. If you can get away without running basic lands you definately have the space to run 8 fetchers.

This deck is not trying to fetch 3 basic islands, a blue dual or 2, play some artifacts, then drop tolarian academy and have a busted "I Win" turn. Nor is it trying to mana ramp into an uncounterable banefire to finish the game.

I have experience in playing 3 color decks as well. Granted not with this 3 color combo but to be fair, I doubt it really matters if your strategy revolves around aggro and/or aggro/control in a 3 color shell. You run basics or you don't and that is what dictates the number of fetches you get to play.

[Miaou]

I really like your deck and congrats on the nice finishes

That being said, I would tweak it a bit:
As you said, you could cut Figure of Destiny for Mogg Fanatic. I believe that this is a good improvement, because you already have Goyfs and Nactls serving as pure beaters. It would be able to ping Confidants and Welders as well as helping the Dredge matchup.

Cutting the bolts in favor of Pyroblasts. You say it yourself, Tezz is a coinflip, so I think that giving yourself an edge in this match up could be beneficial. It can catch them off guard, and gives you added protection against Tinker game 1 to go with the Mindcensors. Should your opponent not play blue, well you can still cast them and give your Goyfs a slight boost. Minimal I know, but better than nothing.

This leads me to the third comment: adding a 4th Null Rod. You wanted to get a better dredge match up I know, and this is going to be sided out against them, however against the rest of the field this is a great card.

The addition of Pyroblasts and Rod in the main deck can free up 4 slots for the Dredge match. So you could probably add 4 Crypts. I would personally keep 2 REBs in the SB against Tezz.

Finally in regards to the Wasteland question, I believe that if you are running Mindcensors and Grips, and you want to be able to cast them regularly, then playing Wastes will slow you down alot. There is also the fact that it may cause you to mulligan otherwise great hands due to color screw. However sometimes Wastes just randomly win the game so it's a toss up. But I like the deck Waste free in its current form.

[Beralt]

The Fanatics would also improve your dredge matchup as they can remove the bridges.

[JudasKilled]

im thinking -4 figures -1 cannonist and -1 taiga for strip 2 waste 3 mogg

[TopSecret]

Congratulations on your success with Zoo!

Have you tried Bloodhall Ooze over Figure of Destiny?
It looks like you have enough green creatures to support him
and he doesn't take any additional mana investment like Figure.

[JudasKilled]

well i dont run black.......and its slow.....so no

[M.Solymossy]

@ Smasher.  Arguing with Jamison (Cheif) is probably not going to be a battle you win when talking about any red and green based aggro strategy, as he won a SCG tournament with RG Beats and has won several bigger local events in the WI/IL area with similar decks.  His arguement was not flawed at all, as I've witnessed him be color-screwed more than once with a similar RGW deck.

[policehq]

His first statement was that his opinion comes from experience, not presupposition. It's not a "hypothetical situation that will never come up." It really sucks when you're playing against Stax/Wastes (Fish) and you have a bad ratio of fetches to mana-producing lands.

[smasher]

His first statement was that his opinion comes from experience, not presupposition. It's not a "hypothetical situation that will never come up." It really sucks when you're playing against Stax/Wastes (Fish) and you have a bad ratio of fetches to mana-producing lands.

What really sucks is when you come up against mana denial and don't have basics to fetch. If your opener contains access to 2 lands and you lose one and miss your shot to get a 2 drop down before another lock piece comes down its a good chance that game is already over.

If your goal is to play mostly 1 and 2 drops as your disruption/aggro plan then playing a couple basics in the deck to fetch first seem better than running all dual lands and ever having to worry about getting blown out from wasteland. If the argument is all about needing colored mana then getting down that almost invincible basic seems like the best option.

Imagine going turn 1 fetch for a dual to drop a 1 drop. Your dual gets wasted. Turn 2 you get to play another 1 drop and need to fetch another dual to do so. If that next dual gets wasted ( according to several people it happens a lot, and I'm not arguing it doesn't either) then on turn 3 you are probably on your last land drop for a turn or 2. This leaves you stuck playing 1 drops. How do you advance versus 2 and 3 mana lands plus full artifact accel when their threats are bigger(shops).

Personally I wouldn't run any style of deck without some basics except a dredge deck or colorless shop deck. Initially I was assuming the non-basic manabase was due to a metagame that allowed it. If the metagame demands basics then run basics.

[JudasKilled]

honestly the negatives are magus and hands that have multiople wastes.  Magus i have the bolts and my red spells, ill either get tyhere or I wont.

As far as wastes, if im on the play chances are i have dropped a 1 drop, if they wanna do nothing but take dmg for two turns with wastes thats ok by me.  Besides its not to often a deck gets two let alone 3 strip effects and still has mana to cast things.  In addition the decks that tend to run strips like yer usual meddling mage deck, i just plain over run them.  So those match ups are almost 90% win ratio, so im no 2 worried.

Well the changes ive made are -4 figures -1 cannonist -1 taiga -1 plateu
, +1 null rod, +2 wasteland +1 stripmine +3 mogg fanatc

not sure if 3 strip effects is enough but will try it out tommorow at xtreme games mox tourney

[JudasKilled]

Played in a mox tourney today with a the last i discussed in my last post.  My showing sucked granted I did get turn 1 killed by r/b storm and was tinkerd turn 1 in my next match....so just a rather unlucky tourney, but i think i may splash black just for edict and 2 tutors.

[swawagon]

I've been having some success with this deck lately. It makes some very big creatures, very fast. And the overlapping disruption or disruption creatures can buy time, thus adding more attack phases.

Waste affects were just a little too tough on the mana in my experience.  A lone Stripmine isn't a horrible idea, but probably not worth it. And a fourth Null Rod main is possible over a Lightning Bolt. I want Lightning Bolt near every game, but I rarely want 2 - so the heater as a 3of is fine with me.

Figure of Destiny is pretty amazing really. It often gets in before Mana Drain is up and becomes a 4/4 relatively quickly. It is vital to have 8 one drops (or a Mox/Lotus and a 2 drop) and get attacking right away turn 2.

The first deck presented is pretty solid.

My Sideboard (Judas' first posted list was missing 3 cards)
3 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Pyroblast - I like these 5 a lot. One of the strongest reasons to run red at all.
4 Pithing Needle - Tormod's Crypt or Pithing are necessary Ichorid hate. Pithing isn't hurt by their Chalice for 0 and are better on the play.
3 Children of Korlis - Nice having one more disruption piece against Storm combo and it's sac ability make it useful against Ichorid too.
3 Ray of Revelation - Oath is otherwise a pretty bad matchup. With these and Quali's you are in much better shape.

[JudasKilled]

Seems good, i also cut the waste effects after playing the last tourney.  They hurt my manabase 2 badly.

I have been messing with this deck and changed it abit but not planning on posting changes till after i play it in the upcoming sapphire tourney.  Lets just say ive added some tinker hate mb.

Oath im not 2 worried about its tier 1.5 and often doesnt survive into the tops 8's.