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Author Topic: How to whip out your 'snake' in public.  (Read 15585 times)
wiley
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2009, 12:07:30 pm »

1 - The mana base needed some work.  There aren't enough sources of Blue, there are too many sources of Green
The deck is base green.  The cards that you look to cast every game are either green or colorless except for the snake.  Force is free, Daze is active in one of 9 ways (and daze isn't as awesome against other decks that pack wastes anyway) and the other blue spells are almost all for draw.  Green ensures that you keep access to loam and tarmogoyf.  The rest of your prison elements are colorless.

That said, the reason the list I used at the Open is straight Gu is because I couldn't get black to work correctly (admittedly I was also trying to squeeze tog into that list as well).  With Vassago's recent success I am going to try and add black back into the build for the tutors it provides.

2 - Bazaar of Baghdad underperformed whenever the deck didn't have a Life from the Loam.
I'm not sure how bazaar can under perform its function.  It is intended as a free, uncounterable card selection engine.  Loam is what augments it into a card advantage engine, and the beauty is that bazaar brings you closer to loam every turn.  It isn't always advantageous to use bazaar every turn, especially if you don't have lock pieces out or loam already online, but the card will always do its job and do it well.

-1 Misdirection, -1 Hurkyll's Recall
These two need to be cut from my list.  No doubt in my mind.

I disagree with your thought on time walk though.  You compare it to smmennen's gro list which has tutors to try and find it.  This deck draws twice as many cards as gro does.  I would argue that the overall chances of seeing walk in this deck are higher than in grow, and the effect of taking an extra turn for a prison deck is more important that taking an extra turn is for a tempo deck (and both are incredibly strong).

Null Rod - This is a possibility for sure.  3x Null Rod with 4x Chalice and 4/1 Wasteland/Strip still leaves the deck with plenty of mana denial.  Yet, Null Rod is such an important piece of the deck that cutting to 3 is probably the wrong choice.
I'm fairly sure that 3 rods will work fine.  I will be testing that as a way to make room for the black tutors.  The only problem is that you decrease the potential for a turn 1-2 null rod to a probable turn 3.  This may prove to be too bad for the deck, but I will try it.

I still think this deck is maybe one card away from being something I'd feel comfortable running in a larger (40+) person event.  I'm not sure if its an existing card we haven't hit on yet, a card that needs to be printed, or a card that might be un-restricted.  4x Gush could really make this deck a contender.

I'll be tuning this until the 6th when I plan on going to the event in Philly, so we'll see if it can do well in a large tournament setting there.  As far as gush is concerned, I don't think it is right for this incarnation of the deck, or at least optimal.  Gush, much like brainstorm would push for the deck to act more like a gro deck instead of the prison deck that it currently is.  I think it would make for a good deck, but it wouldn't have the room for the lock pieces this deck sports.

The only thing I'm not sold on is Daze in this deck as I don't see that you're running something like Noble Hierarch to help curve you up to the Coatl quickly while still having the freedom to Daze and not cost yourself valuable and needed mana.

The deck wasn't designed to be a fast killer.  The snake should rarely, if ever, come down before turn 4.  The plan is to play the deck like stax that runs counter magic instead of sphere effects and use the snake and goyf as your juggernaut after you have the game locked up.  I found that the tempo loss for playing daze was often less than the tempo loss from having whatever spell that was dazed countered.

Another thing for daze was that it feeds into the idea that you want to spend as little mana on anything but furthering your lock or casting your beaters as possible.  I think that this is also why something like circular logic and disrupt can't be used nearly as efficiently.
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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2009, 02:20:24 pm »

I'll see you there on the 6th.  I just have to figure out what to play.

I think the version with Black solves quite a few problems and is probably the way to go.
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« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2009, 09:21:51 pm »

I also have been testing a version of this deck and it works really well. I have included a link to the tournament report I did where I took third place. I might have done better if I didnt scoop to a friend in quarter finals.  Also, Stormanimagus is right. I dont feel like daze is needed in this deck.  Anyway, check out my list and hopefully it will help in some way. 

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38024.0


I saw that list.  It looks awesome, even if the mana base scares me a little.  Did you find the mana you included to be sufficient?  Using Squee obviously makes Bazaar a more efficient "draw" engine as opposed to the "filter" engine it functions as in the build above, so I'm guessing that helps.  You also have only 16 blue cards total by my count to support Force of Will, was that enough?


The mana base was fine. The riftstone portals make the mana awesome, i.e. fetches and bazaars tapping for mana so you do not have to fetch for actual lands. I wouldnt be afraid of the mana base because if they know what you are playing they will save wastelands for bazaars. Also, FYI I always fetch out bayou first. I never go for a blue dual unless I am going to cast something thats blue, obviously right? Haha.  Yes, i think there is enough blue sources/cards to support force of will. I have even pitched coatl to force of will.  I my experience, you really only need to force of will something once in the game.  I try and bait their force of will with like chalice at zero, ancestral recall, or whatever, and resolve either null rod or snake.  often i save my force of will for this play so i force my card to resolve.
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wiley
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2009, 01:28:43 pm »

First I would like to start off by saying this report is being done well after the event happened, so some of the details may be slightly off.
I went to the Dan Herd Memorial event in Philly on 6/6/09 and ran the following list:

Snake Pit
// Lands
    3  Forest
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Tropical Island
    4  Wasteland
    3  Windswept Heath
    2  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    3  Lorescale Coatl
    4  Tarmogoyf
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    4  Accumulated Knowledge
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    3  Daze
    4  Force of Will
    2  Hurkyl's Recall
    3  Life from the Loam
    1  Time Walk
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Null Rod
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Tinker

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Annul
SB: 4  Trygon Predator
SB: 4  Engineered Explosives
SB: 4  Words of Wilding

I decided to add tinker and colossus to the deck for a few reasons; 1) it adds an oops I win element to the deck, which it is sorely lacking in a format full of such things.  2) It adds another threat for what is a fairly threat light deck.  3) Colossus has some synergy with bazaar as opposed to leviathan.  4) It provides one more way to race opposing tinkers.

For the sideboard I took Bert’s suggestion of adding in explosives, which worked fairly well in testing, but the more controversial one, and the one I wasn’t sure of going into the tournament, was words of wilding.  It was there to combat fish’s ability to creature swarm around my fatties and to ensure that every draw can be a permanent against smokestack.  In testing the fish problem didn’t come up enough for me to get a valid reading on the card but against smokestack at any time other than turn 1 it was amazingly good.  Well, it didn’t work out quite that way in practice unfortunately as you will see.

Round 1 vs Matthiew Pine w/ RGW zoo
Game 1
I start out this game with a chalice at 1 which counters his wild nactl and figure of destiny,  but he still has a creature advantage halfway into the game with canonist and teeg which shuts off the other chalice in my hand (which I could have played for two before he ever got a goyf on board) and the force of will.  I eventually get a snake plus 2 tarmos to his tarmo, canonist and teed when I stabilize at 7 life.  I swing in with all three without thinking and almost punt the game since as long as he blocks a tarmo with tarmo and a snake with a bear he could swing back for lethal.  Thankfully he either doesn’t catch it or thinks I have another creature in hand and blocks a tarmo with his twin + a bear and the snake with the other bear.  This ends up costing him the game as my snake grows to lethal the next turn and it is just him chump blocking until he can’t anymore.

I side out my rods for 4 words and go to game 2
Game 2
He ends up mulling to 5 and starts out with a fetch land into savannah and tries to play a wild nactl which I counter with force.  I then waste his land and he doesn’t draw any more for the next 5 turn while a goyf and bear tokens beat him to death.  I did give him an extra turn though when I let a jet resolve when I had an active daze in hand and there were no artifacts already in the graveyard.

1-0   [2-0]

Round 2 vs. Jeremy Beaver w/ Ritual Tez

Game 1
I get a first turn chalice at 1 which slows him down fairly well.  He counters my first snake pitching hurkyl’s recall, which would eventually cost him the game. Eventually he gifts for vault, key, regrowth and yawg while I’m holding null rod with force backup in hand.  On my turn I play rod and he scoops when I eventually get a snake online.

Game 2
We go back and forth as I waste some lands, play chalice at 1 and null rod.   Eventually I have tarmo and loam in hand with wastes in the yard him at 3 nonbasic lands (1 fetch).  Instead of turning him to goo by wasting the rest of his lands I play the goyf and he proceeded to fetch a land, regrowth the fetch, fetch another land, time walk and sower my goyf.  He then goes on to counter the next two goyfs I draw and beats me to death.

Game 3
I get an early null rod, followed up by a chalice at 1 a turn or two later.  When he hurkyl’s me I have a force which he has to pitch tez to counter, cutting him off the win until I can beat him to death with a tarmo.  After reflecting on that game I almost punted it the same way I did game 2 as I cast goyf instead of going with the loam plan when he was at 3 lands.  I’m bad at this game :/

2-0   [4-1]

Round 3 vs. Joshua Scarborough  w/ Mono Red Shop Aggro

Game 1
He is on the play and leads off with crucible of worlds and I’m hold a hand with loam and a bunch of wastes/strip.  He plays a karn and kills me before I ever see a creature.

I side out rods and chalice for predators and words.
Game 2
He gets 3 spheres online pretty quickly with my only play being a counter on a razormane masticore.  I eventually strip all his lands and recover slightly faster to hurkyl’s him eot and play out two predators on my turn, he scoops.

Game 3

We go back and forth a little while.  He has 2 spheres again and I am trying to catch up on lands to play my predators.  I eventually get to the point where I can play out goyfs and get two of them on the table.  The next turn I am staring down a field of karn, 2 spheres, welder, 2 open mana and a tormod’s crypt.  I have loam in hand and wastes in the yard.  I decide that I will play loam, waste and then attack as he has an artifact in the yard already and when he activates the crypt and blocks with the spheres I can make the tarmos 2/3s.  So I play loam and attack and lose my goyfs.  I’m bad at this game.  His piles on more spheres and kills me quickly with 2 predators sitting pretty in my hand.

2-1 [5-3]

Round 4 vs Ryan Glakin w/ RBG zoo

Game 1
I get a chalice at 1 after he plays a fanatic.  He gets out some bobs and tarmos and puts me to 3 life.  10 life.  At that point I get a snake that grows to double digits and a tinker for colossus.  He is still able to swing around them, bringing me to 4 where he sack the fanatic and bolts me to death.

Game 2
I sided in 4 words and 2 ee’s for rods and hurkyl’s.  I start my opening hand with 2 mana and a words.  He gets out two bobs and two tarmos before I can draw into a third mana producer (even after I get bazaar).  After he kills me with the beats I take a look to see where my ee’s where, both were in the last 15 cards of the deck.  Looking back ee would have done a lot more damage than words ever could have as a bear does nothing to tarmo.  I should have gone for those instead.

2-2 [5-5]

Props:
Everyone that showed up and the people running the tournament.  It was a lot of fun.
Beaver for being the best damn trash talker I have met in years.

Slops:
Only to me for playing so poorly, everything else was great.

Thoughts on the deck:
I am pretty happy with the main deck I ran.  Every game that I won, had I played better, could have been won with a wider margin of safety and 3 of the games I lost were direct results of my own poor decisions.  The other two (game 1 vs Josh and Ryan) could probably have gone better if I had mulliganed more aggressively.

The sideboard is still a problem.  Words is not worth anything.  It cannot pull you out of a losing position, ever.  Going forward I will use mishra’s factory and see how that works out.  I will also be revamping my side boarding decisions, probably trying to pull in the annuls vs. shop aggro and stax in addition to the predators and factories.

The only other way I would change the deck is to completely revamp the main deck, dropping forces and aks to make room for things like factory and pithing needle.  The snake does not need the extra draw outside of bazaar anyway, so it would be a matter of how quick the deck could operate without the draw power, and how well it operates with less counter backup.  As is, you don’t win many counter wars against tez and remora decks anyway, they just serve to limit the opponent’s resources.  It may also be possible to cut down on the number of wastes at that point and add in 2 crop rotations.

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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2009, 02:09:27 pm »

I actually have been considering dropping FOW's and Ak's for a duress package and BOB. What do you think?  Then again I have been playing it with alot of black in it. 
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wiley
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2009, 02:15:42 pm »

I actually have been considering dropping FOW's and Ak's for a duress package and BOB. What do you think?  Then again I have been playing it with alot of black in it.  

That actually has a lot of merit.  Te main reason I originally induced aks was to make the snake big enough fast enough.  After playing this in two separate tournaments it really is just win more.  Without those, and no other blue card really being good enough to put into the deck force loses it ability to be effective.  I have really wanted better, more consistent draw and more threats.  Bob fills both of those roles.  It also ups the decks turn 1 possibilities.

Pithing needle may also be a better card than chalice, but I'm not certain at this point.  Chalice does compete with duress and needle though.
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2009, 04:09:10 pm »

I like having both duress and chalice in the deck, the idea anyway.  The games where you do not see chalice early enough, duress will fill the disruption role i think.  With bazaar you will be able to filter away duress effects late game if you have set chalice at one.  I think the addition of duress adds to the early game disruption, which I believe is needed. 
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 01:23:55 pm »

If the deck is threat-light, could vendillion clique be the answer? it is an evasive beater with 3 power, playable as an instant, and acts as either disruption or card filtering. And if you wanted to incorporate a little more blue, intuition would be a really good card in the deck methinks, as it can fetch lam and strip, multiple beaters, or aks. maybe crop rotation could be incorporated to ease up on the mana and cheat on the amount of bazaars as well? So all in all, my suggestions would look something like:

-1 loam
-1 forest
-1 null rod
-1 bazaar
-1 waste

+1 lotus petal
+2 crop rotation
+2 clique

and as far as disruption goes, spell snare seems like a really good card for the deck. either that or stifle. You could take out 4x ak and add 3x stifle (mana denial, storm protection, randomly buys turns against some deck, prevents relic from shrinking your goyfs) or 3x spell snare (counters a huge list of playable cards, but echoing truth, drain, resistors, and confidant to name a few important ones) and another clique or a factory or something. the lone factory would up your threat count with crop rotation, and save you space if you wanted to play more in the side. For stax boarding, you could put 1x waste 3x factory in the side and you'd be pretty well off against them. and oath, too.
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2009, 09:17:03 pm »

I'd play deep analysis over accumulated knowledge. With accumulated knowledge you draw 1, 2, 3 and 4 cards, but at the cost of one card. With deep analysis you draw 2 cards at the cost of 0 cards (provided you discarded it with bazaar), of you draw 4 cards at the cost of 1 card (and 6 mana), plus 3 lives in both cases.

I'd play a "madness" deck, with wild mongrel, lorescale coatl and tarmo as creatures, and a heavy draw engine (bazaar + life from the loam, deep analysis, tolarian winds, cephalid colisseum, brainstorm, ancestral, gush), fow, circular logic and maybe daze. I'd not play 4 bazaars but that's up to you Smile
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