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Author Topic: [Budget Vintage Deck] Suicide Storm  (Read 7990 times)
overseer1234
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« on: May 19, 2009, 04:26:58 pm »

Ok so for the past 3 month's I've been trying to build a budget mono black combo deck.

So to make a long story short: here's what came out:

4x    Dark Confidant
4x    Night's Whisper
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x    Necropotence   

4x    Chalice of the void
4x    Duress
4x    Thougthseize

4x    Wasteland
1x    Strip Mine

7x    Swamp
4x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal      

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will   

4x    Tendrils of Agony

As you can see I ended up with a striped down version of GWSx but just mono black, and with chalice, wasteland and stripmine Very Happy

Short explanation:
The Engine:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Night's Whisper
2 Sensei's divining top
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence (Should those last 2 be with the Engine or the bombs?)

12 Draw/Filter cards should be enough to keep the deck flowing.


The Disruption:
4 Chalice of the void
4 Duress
4 Thougthseize
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Basicly Suicide Black 2k9's disruption package sans null rod (to slow, at least chalice can up the storm for free), but this should do the trick by making your opponent play fair.



The Nutz:
1 Demonic tutor
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic consultation
1 Yawgmoth's will

What Deck CAN'T Go broken Whith These Goody's...

The Manabase:
7 Swamp
7 Fetch
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal ritual
1 Lotus Petal

Give's mana, fast, ups the storm count, and shuffle's for the SDT, wha more do you want mana to do?

The Kill:
4 Tendrills of Agony

Yes, 4 Tendrills, since we don't have the luxury of playing grim tutor's and Ilmperial Seal we need to be able to find our kill reliably through our draw.
Drawing multiple's isn't that big of a problem because 3 rituals (8 mana) +2 tendrills also wins...


Also, this deck does play a lot like GWSx, in the way that you mostly just try to resolve a Dark Confidant as soon as possible, start sculpting your hand with SDT and Whisper's, and then win through confidant Beats + Storm.

Remember that Each time confidant smack's your opponent you nes 1 storm les. Also, SDT+Confidant are the main support once you get to the mid game since you don't take to much damage from confidant, keep up disruption and have the option to storm up to 5 time's in a game (4 tendrills+yawgmoth's will).

I don't have a sideboard yet, but i wouldn't bother boarding against Stax since it just wrecks you and there aren't really any good answer's to it when staying mono black. I suoopse the board would contain at least 7 GY hate slot's (Leyline, T.Crypt, Extirpate, Y?Jailer,...) some edict's (DSC, Inkwell and oath creature's), and maybe shriekmaw's to fight of those fish decks.


I really hope to get some positive feedback and that this deck get's finetune, since I've hit a wall as far as development goes...

Greetzzzz,
Robin.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 05:25:13 am by overseer1234 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 10:00:24 am »

I think if you do use chalice it should be in the sb.
You have a ton of black ramp try hymn!
Then with the discard and wastes you could also try extirpate.
cuts could be..1 swamp 1 drills 1 nights whisper and then cut the chalices and add 3 hymns and 4 extirpates

grim!
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 10:05:26 am »

It turns out that Phyrexian Negator and Cabal Therapy work well in a list similar to yours.

Basically, you can ritual out a Negator on turn 1.

Then swing on turn 2 and turn 3.
After swinging on turn 3 you can Therapy you opponent, Sac Negator to flash back Therapy and then Ritual out a Tendrils for the win.

By swinging for 5 a turn and adding free Therapies to storm it enables you to win small without a huge Yawg.
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overseer1234
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2009, 10:45:26 am »

It turns out that Phyrexian Negator and Cabal Therapy work well in a list similar to yours.

Basically, you can ritual out a Negator on turn 1.

Then swing on turn 2 and turn 3.
After swinging on turn 3 you can Therapy you opponent, Sac Negator to flash back Therapy and then Ritual out a Tendrils for the win.

By swinging for 5 a turn and adding free Therapies to storm it enables you to win small without a huge Yawg.

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it Smile

So something like this would be a step in the right direction:
4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negater
3x    Night's Whisper
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x    Necropotence   

4x    Chalice of the void
4x    Duress
4x    Cabal Therapy

4x    Wasteland
1x    Strip Mine

7x    Swamp
3x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal     

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will   

3x    Tendrils of Agony


Basically the list from the opening post but with -1 tendrills, -1 night's whisper -1 fetch, and +3 Gator, and I replaced the thoughtseize's with therapy's.

I also need some help with the sideboard. I'll post what I find out whith this list.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 11:36:28 am by overseer1234 » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 01:27:53 pm »

What is chalice for?  You will never want to see it aside from your opening hand.  Fish decks and lock decks use chalice because every part of their deck has a role in shutting down your opponent.  A second chalice means they can play it at 1-2 to stop their opponent from playing their key spells.  However you don't really want to be doing this because you want to combo out and you have a lot of protection at 1 CC and draw at 2 CC.  So if you don't have chalice in your opening hand what purpose is there in having it?  I understand a Chalice + Ritual + Negator by tiself can win games, but you don't really have much support for that strategy.  You have some card draw, you have some manipulation, and you have some 'hate' cards.  You're deck is trying to play every role, combo control and aggro but it doesn't look like it would be strong in either of those roles.  My first comment would be to get rid of the Tops and Bargain.  Against a good player, they will let you waste a Ritual and counter your Bargain.  Now you have serious card disadvantage.  You don't have enough control ish cards to play the long game so the top isn't going to help you that much.  It's more for smoothing over control players draws.  It costs you 2 mana to see 3 cards which is too much in combo.  I would keep Chalice SB for now against pure combo decks.  Right now it looks like it might help you if you can draw into it early enough, but you don't want to waste a draw on turn 3-4 drawing a chalice.  If you want to keep chalice in, then I would look at adding Bitterblossom and perhaps Null Rod and take the more aggressive route.  Bitterblossom is awesome with therapy and can chump block Inkwell and Gofy all day.  If you want to be more combo-ish then I would look at taking out the Chalice and Wastelands.  Combo decks are mana hungry and hate losing mana.  You could take out the Wastes/Chalices for Ad Nauseum and perhaps another solid 2 mana card.  Your deck looks just a bit too diluted.  I would stick to a main strategy and then have a back up plan rather than having two equal ways of winning because it confuses me whether or not you are trying to play beats (wastes/chalices/negators) or Storm (draw/Tendrils).  I don't think you need to remove the backup kill altogether, but remove the supporting pieces to your backup plan and go with a stronger main kill.
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 02:03:14 pm »

I actually think you have plenty of card draw with 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Night's Whisper.  In my opinion, you need to make up for the loss of mana acceleration from not playing moxen.  Lotus Petal is a good start, but you should also try 1-4 Chrome Mox.  Also, running Fetchlands with Swamp as your only target is fairly useless.  The deck thinning advantage from Fetchlands has been shown to be negligible (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096).  For sideboard, maybe start with something along these lines:

3 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid, other)
2 Yixlid Jailer (Ichorid)
3 Hymn to Tourach (control)
3 Crucible of Worlds (one of the only cards a monoblack deck can run to help with Stax)
2 Diabolic Edict (Inkwell, Fish)
2 Smother (Fish)
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overseer1234
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 02:15:19 pm »

What is chalice for?  You will never want to see it aside from your opening hand.  Fish decks and lock decks use chalice because every part of their deck has a role in shutting down your opponent.  A second chalice means they can play it at 1-2 to stop their opponent from playing their key spells.  However you don't really want to be doing this because you want to combo out and you have a lot of protection at 1 CC and draw at 2 CC.  So if you don't have chalice in your opening hand what purpose is there in having it?  I understand a Chalice + Ritual + Negator by tiself can win games, but you don't really have much support for that strategy.  You have some card draw, you have some manipulation, and you have some 'hate' cards.  You're deck is trying to play every role, combo control and aggro but it doesn't look like it would be strong in either of those roles.  My first comment would be to get rid of the Tops and Bargain.  Against a good player, they will let you waste a Ritual and counter your Bargain.  Now you have serious card disadvantage.  You don't have enough control ish cards to play the long game so the top isn't going to help you that much.  It's more for smoothing over control players draws.  It costs you 2 mana to see 3 cards which is too much in combo.  I would keep Chalice SB for now against pure combo decks.  Right now it looks like it might help you if you can draw into it early enough, but you don't want to waste a draw on turn 3-4 drawing a chalice.  If you want to keep chalice in, then I would look at adding Bitterblossom and perhaps Null Rod and take the more aggressive route.  Bitterblossom is awesome with therapy and can chump block Inkwell and Gofy all day.  If you want to be more combo-ish then I would look at taking out the Chalice and Wastelands.  Combo decks are mana hungry and hate losing mana.  You could take out the Wastes/Chalices for Ad Nauseum and perhaps another solid 2 mana card.  Your deck looks just a bit too diluted.  I would stick to a main strategy and then have a back up plan rather than having two equal ways of winning because it confuses me whether or not you are trying to play beats (wastes/chalices/negators) or Storm (draw/Tendrils).  I don't think you need to remove the backup kill altogether, but remove the supporting pieces to your backup plan and go with a stronger main kill.

The problem is that this is a budget deck so going all in combo will just result in a deck that will be to slow to win, therefor we NEED the disruption of chalice (or null rod if you like, but chalice can give free storm) and the discard in order to buy us time enough to go off ourselves.

Also 3 Tutors, 4 cxonfidant, ,Necro, Bargain AND 3 night's whisper should be enough draw to make sure you find what you need.

(p.s.: use some alinea's man, it's really hard to read through a large chunk of text without some structure in it.)

I actually think you have plenty of card draw with 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Night's Whisper.  In my opinion, you need to make up for the loss of mana acceleration from not playing moxen.  Lotus Petal is a good start, but you should also try 1-4 Chrome Mox.  Also, running Fetchlands with Swamp as your only target is fairly useless.  The deck thinning advantage from Fetchlands has been shown to be negligible (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096).  For sideboard, maybe start with something along these lines:

3 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid, other)
2 Yixlid Jailer (Ichorid)
3 Hymn to Tourach (control)
3 Crucible of Worlds (one of the only cards a monoblack deck can run to help with Stax)
2 Diabolic Edict (Inkwell, Fish)
2 Smother (Fish)

Sounds nice however even with cricible the stax machup is going to be almost impossible to win, so I think about using that slot to help other matchups like ichorid and other combo decks (extirpate comes to mind).

The fetchlands however are there to shuffle away bad cards whith SD, AND they help to achieve threshold faster so that cabal ritual becomes better.


EDIT: About the lack of manna acceleration, I was thinking about maybe adding sol ring, and mana vault/crypt. Maybe even grim monolith.
The problem with the chrome's is that they give me card disadvantage +  they get countered by my own chalice.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 02:24:03 pm by overseer1234 » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2009, 03:19:36 pm »

I apologize that my post was hard to read.
Let me make it more condense and understandable:
Quote
FSB (Forino Sui Black)
3rd Place, 2007 Vintage Championship

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Mox Jet
2 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Dark Confidant
3 Night's Whisper
2 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence
3 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Wasteland
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Null Rod
2 Massacre
1 Darkblast
2 Ill-Gotten Gains

Obviously this deck was non-budget but every card is aiming at the goal of allowing the player to combo off.

Quote
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
 

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Tribal Enchantments
4 Bitterblossom

Basic Lands
15 Swamp

Lands
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

This is Steve Menedians Sui budget deck.  Very similar to your list.  First off the only time Bargain is going to be effective is if you have at a Duress effect in your hand, and 2-3 rituals depending on your mana (you would need 7 for both, or a creature to sac for a therapy that has already been used).  This is too dependant.  I would at least test other options.  
Infernal Contract
Tainted Pact


I would still replace the tops and Bargain with 3x Null Rod since that is the route you would like to go.
Also I would try -1 fetch land (personally I believe 7 is way too many since they aren't that effective in thining your deck) +1 night's whisper.

Bargain is just too hard to justify when it will cost you at least 2+ cards to get it into play in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 10:57:44 pm by Roat17 » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2009, 06:23:03 pm »

So you want to make a budget Storm deck...

Why are you not playing an Ad Nauseam list? They on average only play 5 Power.

You could switch up the power for Bobs?

Just a thought.
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overseer1234
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 04:58:51 am »

Nauseam sounds nice, but budget also means no imperial seal's and Grim tutor's, so there are a lot more slot's that need to be filled up ...
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 08:59:24 am »

Also, running Fetchlands with Swamp as your only target is fairly useless. 
Cabal Ritual likes Threshold.
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 10:08:34 am »

Maybe you could try Infernal Tutor, it's a good way to get more mana/draw into your hand. Then you could try to include Ill-Gotten Gains and Lion's Eye Diamond.
Casting Infernal, saccing LED in response, get the Ill-Gotten Gains, cast it, return Ritual/Infernal/LED, go get Yawg's Will or Tendrils and win.
It's a big stormengine in legacy, maybe it's not half bad in a budget storm deck in vintage.

When you pack much disruption in your deck and play confidant, it's not a bad way to move in for the kill with. It's still budget and it flows very smoothly.
That's what your deck lacks at the moment. Stormdecks are desgned to flow smoothly, as they go off they'll run into more mana/draw and will eventually kill you with Tendrils. Without big draws it's hard to keep chaining spells together, even with threshed Cabal Rituals.

You don't run Null Rods so play a Sol Ring.

I guess Negators could be good, I'm just not sure on Cabal Therapy. You need to be a good player to make the card what it appears to be, as it appears to be very solid. With so many restricted spells it seems tough to land a hit with it.




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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 02:20:51 pm »

It turns out that Phyrexian Negator and Cabal Therapy work well in a list similar to yours.

Basically, you can ritual out a Negator on turn 1.

Then swing on turn 2 and turn 3.
After swinging on turn 3 you can Therapy you opponent, Sac Negator to flash back Therapy and then Ritual out a Tendrils for the win.

By swinging for 5 a turn and adding free Therapies to storm it enables you to win small without a huge Yawg.
This was an effective strategy before the printing of Tarmogoyf, even before Jotun Grunt. Now I'm not so sure it's a good idea.

I think 2 Cabal Therapy is probably sufficient, both with the low creature count and with the ineffectiveness of the card until after another Duress effect has resolved.

I like Unmask in these lists, and I think you have plenty of room to play around with the 4-ofs in your deck to include some other options.

Something like this for example:

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Culling the Weak
1 Lotus Petal

1 Infernal Contract
4 Night's Whisper

4 Duress
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod/Sensei's Divining Top
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necropotence

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tendrils of Agony

3 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
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overseer1234
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2009, 05:29:18 am »

Allright, So far thaeapy has been pretty good ONE YOU'VE HAD A DURESS EFFECT, so I've replaced 2 of them whith 2 Thoughtseize's.

Gator's are pretty sweet, and the trick T1 ritual gator, T2 confidant Beat (5), T3 Beat(12) ritual ritual duress/therapy (make a pick) and tendrils FTW works pretty good.

The wastelands are not working to good right now (or you wish they were black, or they're just plain not good enough) so I'm replacing some of them whith swamps/fetch, the 4th tendrills, sol ring and a mana vault.

Current list:
4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negater
3x    Night's Whisper
2x    Sensei's divining top
1x    Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x    Necropotence   

4x    Chalice of the void
4x    Duress
2x    Cabal Therapy
2x    Thoughtseize


8x    Swamp
4x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta

4x    Dark Ritual
4x    Cabal ritual
1x    Lotus Petal     
1x    Sol Ring
1x    mana Vault

1x    Demonic tutor
1x    Vampiric tutor
1x    Demonic consultation
1x    Yawgmoth's will   

4x    Tendrils of Agony

Still working on a sideboard, but simply playing:

4 Diabolic Edict
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
3 Shriekmaw
3 (don't remember but it was a creature anyway)

This has been pretty amazing, since they usually think you play regular sui black (2k9) and then tendrills for the win (with relative ease), and game 2 they side in their combo hate and you just bash face with fatty's.

Thank's for the good feedback, keep it coming, I'm currently trying to figure out how to fit in IGG/Ad nauseam (infernal tutor/LED is going to have to wait since I don't have them..)


Again: Thanks and keep it up Smile
I really appreciate it.

Greetzzzzzzzzzzz,
Robin.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2009, 07:54:39 am »

Robin, with the sideboard you have now you basically don't stand a change vs Dredge I would really play Tormod's crypt, Relic and / or Jailers, Extirpate. That being said having a Pithing needle in the board (on bazaar) also helps against  Staxx (your worst matchup I guess) and against other stuff.

I'm not sure you should try to fit in Ad Nauseam or Iggy because AN would likely kill you faster then lets say Bargain. I don't think you can really abuse IGG so I think not running it is probably best.

Just my 2 cents.
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2009, 09:59:32 am »

Robin, with the sideboard you have now you basically don't stand a change vs Dredge I would really play Tormod's crypt, Relic and / or Jailers, Extirpate. That being said having a Pithing needle in the board (on bazaar) also helps against  Staxx (your worst matchup I guess) and against other stuff.
Edicting myself and letting shriakmaw die helps against the bridges, and I gues those 3 last slot's are for te jailers (i liek creature's vor solutions since they back up als a (slow) clock.

Shop really hate's big undercosted creature's (tombstalker and gator) but maybe needle's will fit in there (I personally have given up on the shop matchup to be honest.

I'm not sure you should try to fit in Ad Nauseam or Iggy because AN would likely kill you faster then lets say Bargain. I don't think you can really abuse IGG so I think not running it is probably best.

Just my 2 cents.

Probably true, but I hope you don't mind me testing it.


Keep that feedback coming.
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 11:20:15 am »

Don't give up on fighting shopdecks just yet. It's hard without {U} bounce to get rid of the artifacts but there's nothing wrong with trying to kill them with Confidant and Negator beats. I agree with Marske, you should definitely have Needles in the SB for Bazaar and it can be a useful card overall.
Tormod's Crypt and Jailers also help against different decks so that would be fine against Ichorid.

I think it's good that you don't try Waste+Strip anymore. Earlier Roat17 commented on the fact your deck was going too many directions. I think the list is improving as it doesn't play the control role anymore.

Is 4 Tendrils to your liking? Maybe 3 would be better but I couldn't really say.

SB: 3 Jailer, 3 Needle, 2 Crypt, 4 Edict, 3 Tombstalker? looks decent. You have a way to fight annoying creatures/robots. You have 8 cards to bring in against Ichorid and 8 cards to side out (all your discard) also, you have a better match-up against shopdecks as Tombstalker/Negators are huge.
I don't know if your game already is good against control because it should be. Duress/Thoughtseize/Confidant and Negators are a pain for controldecks. Tez can get nasty by Vault Key'ing you quickly but other than that I think vs. control you're OK.



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« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2009, 12:14:21 pm »

I never have thought that Tombstalker was very good/playable in mono-black because you don't fill your graveyard very well, ESPECIALLY against a deck like Stax that is limiting your ability to play spells.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth lets you try a lot of different things with lands. I'd keep at least 2 Wasteland and 1 Strip Mine. You have to keep your opponent playing fair while your Rituals give you a boost. Bazaar of Baghdad can filter through extra Chalices or early Tendrils of Agony that you draw (and are dead in the first few turns).

Null Rod is still better than Sensei's Divining Top.

What decks have you actually tested Negator against? It seems like such a bad idea right now to play him.
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2009, 03:30:41 pm »

Why is Negator bad?

Someone mentioned Jotun Grunt, but that is not played.

Against Goyf you either have a standoff or if he attacks then you can counter attack.  In either case you can still sack Negator to Therapy for a free spell when Storming out.

Against Ad Nauseam Negator is good for decreasing the power of that card quickly.

Against Tez, Negator can remove a Tez thanks to Trample.

Against Stax Negator can race a ramping Smokestack.

Shop Aggro with Duplicants, Triskelions and Solemn Simulacrum is a pain.
Against Oath he is pretty bad.
Otherwise he seems good against most of the field to me.
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2009, 04:14:26 pm »

Why is Negator bad?

Someone mentioned Jotun Grunt, but that is not played.
I only mentioned Jotun Grunt to provide the era in which Sui-Black/Tendrils was played before by Vincent Forino. I'm pretty sure it was pre-Cold Snap, but I'm absolutely positive it was before Tarmogoyf.

Against Goyf you either have a standoff or if he attacks then you can counter attack.  In either case you can still sack Negator to Therapy for a free spell when Storming out.
They clearly have the upper hand in this "standoff," and you're on the clock with your life total and permanents. Plus Tarmogoyf typically comes with other creatures/permanents that must be Cabal Therapy/Unmask/Thoughtseized (immune to Duress often) or will hamper your ability to "storm out," and they don't care about Chalice of the Void. Fortunately the only thing this deck has going for it against aggro (which isn't much) is invulnerability to Wasteland.

Against Ad Nauseam Negator is good for decreasing the power of that card quickly.
Rare enough scenario, a mini-Tendrils does the same thing.

Against Tez, Negator can remove a Tez thanks to Trample.

Against Stax Negator can race a ramping Smokestack.
Does your testing show this to be true? If played on the same turn, my Negator, then opponent's Smokestack, and they don't play Tangle Wire, other lock pieces, Triskelion, a number of other things, I still don't have enough permanents for a Negator to go the distance against a ramping Smokestack. This deck is lightly packed with permanents.

Shop Aggro with Duplicants, Triskelions and Solemn Simulacrum is a pain.
Against Oath he is pretty bad.
Otherwise he seems good against most of the field to me.
Against Ichorid? Not particularly. Most things with Red (shop aggro, goblins, R/G beats, Mountains), probably the worst play you could make...

I played this deck a lot back when Vincent Forino was posting results with it and love it, but I don't think Phyrexian Negator is as good as it was then.
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 04:42:37 pm »

Against Goyf you either have a standoff or if he attacks then you can counter attack.  In either case you can still sack Negator to Therapy for a free spell when Storming out.
They clearly have the upper hand in this "standoff," and you're on the clock with your life total and permanents. Plus Tarmogoyf typically comes with other creatures/permanents that must be Cabal Therapy/Unmask/Thoughtseized (immune to Duress often) or will hamper your ability to "storm out," and they don't care about Chalice of the Void. Fortunately the only thing this deck has going for it against aggro (which isn't much) is invulnerability to Wasteland.
How does Goyf have the upper hand?  At 5/6 Goyf will be even and at 4/5 he is smaller.  Fish generally only runs 4 card types so unless they Duress Baragain/Necro then you will usually have the bigger creature.  Since neither this deck nor Fish run many artifacts we are instead left with Goyf in all likelihood getting stuck at something like 3/4.  Even if he was swinging with both Bob and Goyf I would win since Bob is some damage of his own.
What about Fishes other creatures?  Bob and Cursecatcher are small enough that you can just trade with them.  If my opponent swings with/block with Bob then I sack my 2 Permanents and smile to be rid of him.  For Cursecatcher I will lose my 1 Permanent.  This deck may have trouble against Aggro in general because of cards like Chalice of the Void, but it is not because of Phyrexian Negator.

Against Ad Nauseam Negator is good for decreasing the power of that card quickly.
Rare enough scenario, a mini-Tendrils does the same thing.
What is rare?  That you resolve Negator?  That Ad Nauseam runs Ad Nauseam?  This seems very common to me.  A mini Tendrils does do the same thing justifies running 3-4 Tendrils.  It does not justify dropping Negator.

Against Stax Negator can race a ramping Smokestack.
Does your testing show this to be true? If played on the same turn, my Negator, then opponent's Smokestack, and they don't play Tangle Wire, other lock pieces, Triskelion, a number of other things, I still don't have enough permanents for a Negator to go the distance against a ramping Smokestack. This deck is lightly packed with permanents.
Phyrexian Negator is probably the best turn 1 Play you can make against Stax.  It is right up there with turn 1 Dark Confidant.  This is an unpowered deck thus winning through turn 1 Smokestack is unlikely, but Turn 1 Negator gives you the best chance possible.  Negator is bad in certain matchups, but Stax is not one of them.
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2009, 05:52:37 pm »

Dark Confidant is clearly the best play you can make turn 1 against Stax. Especially Stax with a few creatures, and even more especially against Stax with Triskelion.

The rare situation was playing against Ad Nauseam in general, but I'll give it to you that it's a good play then.

When Tarmogoyf came out, TPS sideboards changed to include it over Phyrexian Negator. A lot of storm decks splash green for Tarmogoyf in the side (including Ad Nauseam), and I think if you want a big fatty, the best idea might be to play your own set of Tarmogoyf.

Basically I think if you test this a lot, against a lot of decks, you will find that the cost:benefit ratio is not in favor of Phyrexian Negator. There are situations where he's good, and there are situations where a good opponent will wreck you because he's in play. There are lots of aggro strategies being tested right now: R/G beats, W/G, W/G/b, Mountains, Aggro Shop, Fish of many flavors, then other situations (Tinker) that make Negator terrible. And this isn't from theory, it's from a lot of playing with these decks (since Forino) and other black storm decks (like the old European Shield Sphere/Culling the Weak lists). It could possibly be a sideboard card, but there are probably better choices even then.
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