Major Rules Changes Announced!!!

[Smmenen]

Mana burn is eliminated from the rules of magic with M10.     Wishes have also been changed and combat damage will no longer use the stack.   Mulligans will now be performed simultaneously!!

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a



EDIT:

My views:

1) Mana Burn It's a personal preference, but I like the elimination of Mana Burn. I care about the simplicity of the game for its future, and I think of this as a positive.

2) The New Mulligan Rule: AWESOME
Vintage matches are already pressed for time.   The loss of strategic advantage due to going second and having less information is offset by the tremendous amount of time that this will save.    Great work wizards! 

3) The new combat rule.

People are confusing 'intuitive' with 'less complex.'    The new combat rules may be more intuitive, but I do not agree that they are less complex.    If anything, i'm afraid that Wizards is making combat more complex.   

Two examples bear this out.  First of all, the declare blockers step is now the most important step in the combat phase. This misnomer will lead to numerous errors, where uninformed players are too late to make critical plays that will affect the resolution of combat damage.   Secondly, the new 'ordering' rule is something that will produce all kinds of confusion.   It is, by definition, an increase in the complexity of the rules system.   For example, explain banding now.  I have a feeling that changing lifelink and deathtouch are just the beginning of the changes necessitated by this overall change.   

As a change, I'm somewhat indifferent to this new rule.  But as for the claim that it makes things less complicated, I say that's just untrue.   

[MadManiac21]

Ugh. Yay for making the game easier for morons.

That is all.

[LotusHead]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a
Link to article.

Rules for combat damage (and hence combat tricks are too much for me to digest in one reading) and changes for LifeLink almost seem strangely relevant to future Vintage Strategies...

I have no problems with their Mana Burn decision other than that as a purist.

Thank god we have a whole month to digest all this...

[PhilipJFry]

Not being able to float mana from the Upkeep through the draw step seems borderline relevant.  It is a change that helps out Stax, since now a player can;t tap the mana with a Tangle Wire trigger on the stack, hoping to use it to play a card drawn.

[Matt]

Quick summary:

1. Simultaneous Mulligans
2. Terminology Changes
3. Mana Pools Empty More Often, Mana Burn Gone
4. Token Ownership
5. Combat Damage No Longer Uses the Stack
6. Deathtouch updated per #5
7. Lifelink updated per #5

Change #1 is probably for the best IMO. I'm neutral-to-positive on this one.
Change #2 I am very disappointed in, but...I'll get over it. Certainly I feel less livid about it than I did the 8th edition frame changes, and I've come to honestly like those.
Change #3 is very minor, and I like it. Mana burn should never have been there in the first place, along with "tapped blockers don't deal damage" and "tapped artifacts turn off." Good riddance.
Change #4 is intuitive, and that's a good thing. I see no serious drawback to this because the exploit was so incredibly rare to begin with - pretty much just Brand, in terms of people actually trying to use it.
Change #5 is ULTRAMEGAHUGE. This is something I really should master ASAP, it's going to give people who do a lot of free wins in non-vintage formats, where people actually block. Especially Limited.
Changes #6 and #7 follow naturally from #5, and I have no problem with them.

Boy, I'm gonna have a lot to chat about during tomorrow's draft!

[urweak]

Regardless of my feelings about the changes. I am really confused as to why these changes needed to be made. What is the net out come of all this/What does Wizards think this will effectivly do for the game?

[Shock Wave]

I am apathetic in regards to the changes. What truly puzzles me is how on the one hand, Wizards has these reservations about "power level errata" or "banning" cards, yet they find it completely feasible to make a serious overhaul to the rules, effectively creating errata on thousands of existing cards and impacting the functionality of hundreds more. I guess the moral of the story here is that when you are in charge, you don't need to worry about precedents, or having sound justification for your choices.

[M.Solymossy]

.



Tarmogoyf enters the battlefield.
Dark Confidant is Exiled.

[maatn]

Yeah..well..I must say that my first reaction was all fury and rage, but after checking the forum at WotC that kinda subsided.

Along with many "OMG how can they do this" and "OMG why did they do this", come answers in the likes of "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is", "So, if like you guys are quitting, can I have your cards?" and the more sensible answer from  "ainsi_la_nuit  ainsi_la_nuit":

Seriously! I played as an 8th grade kid when Revised was the name of the game and everyone was crying about Fallen Empires, and really, what expectation did any of us have that Magic would be around for much more than a few years from then?

Coming back to the game over a decade later and arguably having more fun with it now than I did as a kid--I never would have guessed it was possible. But Wizards has defied the odds and adapted, learning from their mistakes, and have kept the game thriving against all odds in this fickle field of fantasy gaming.

It's amazing that they keep going, given the utter contempt the lot of you Simpsons Comic-Book-Guy types who seem to make up the majority of the community who actually takes the time, along with me, to give Wizards feedback here.

You people are the same ones who were complaining when Alpha went Beta, and Beta went Unlimited, and Unlimited went Revised! Guess what: NO ONE WOULD STILL BE PLAYING IF YOU YOU ALL GOT YOUR WAY.

I guess he has a point...this game has been around for what? About 16 years? And it survived all those years to such a degree, that even those earliest of cards printed way back in 1993 are still playable and legal in official sanctioned tournaments...

So, before turning this thread into a 2nd flame-infested trollinggrotto, let us just give 'them' some credit for keeping a freaking card game alive for so long. And yes, things change and although some change is highly welcomed (i.e. yes we can) some change is not. But if these changes keep my favorite game alive, hey, I guess I'll just have to learn some new rules. And unlearn some old ones that I liked 10million times better than the new ones. But this is not a game published by / in Soviet Russia, so bucks need to made. And bucks are made through new customers mostly.

[Tobi]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

Very long article. Most important changes for vintage:

- manaburn is removed
- "exile-rule", meaning that cards removed from game will not be accessible by Research/Development or any wishes


edit: Sorry, just realized there is already a thread in the Community forum: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38125.0

[MadManiac21]

Wheres the open source website/email to tell wizards to reverse this f'ing bs asap.

The change in combat is beyond retarded. THANKS FOR COMPLETELY CHANGING THE GAME WE PLAY - Did people NOT enjoy the stack? Being able to master it was what seperated the pros from joes.

This is so beyond dumb. How do they not run any focus groups about this shit? Seriously. Come the f on.

[LotusHead]

Wheres the open source website/email to tell wizards to reverse this f'ing bs asap.

The change in combat is beyond retarded. THANKS FOR COMPLETELY CHANGING THE GAME WE PLAY - Did people NOT enjoy the stack? Being able to master it was what seperated the pros from joes.

This is so beyond dumb. How do they not run any focus groups about this shit? Seriously. Come the f on.

Now we all get to learn how to be pros again.

EDIT: I should further explain. I used to think myself as master of the rules. But after 3 year break from playing anything but casual rarely, did I re-enter play during Onslaught Block.  I had to re-learn ALL the rules. The Stack. Responding to my spell with a brainstorm into a counterspell, then countering my spell wtf?

I survived and discovered this vibrant rich game with unlimited possibilities.  These new changes I'm sure are to make it easier for everyone to have the game works the way they think they do. (Remember, the rules don't come in the box anymore.  It's mostly word of mouth)

I had to train locals on the nitpicky rules to further their ability to play Vintage and FNM.  Now we might likely have better, more intuitive rules.

We just have to learn what they are and well, suck for a little bit.

[SiegeX]

THANKS FOR COMPLETELY CHANGING THE GAME WE PLAY - Did people NOT enjoy the stack? Being able to master it was what seperated the pros from joes

Agreed, although the new combat rules bring up new decisions we never had to make, to block an X/1 with a Sakura Tribe Elder being the canonical example, ultimately I feel it removes more strategical plays/decisions than it adds.

IMHO, what they should have done was make a simple addition to the combat rules which states "Sources of damage from creatures that are not in the battlefield do no damage."

It can be said this suggestion can lead to odd situations after the damage is on the stack.  Example, a Giant Growth on an X/3 deals no extra damage but a last gasp on an X/3 nullifies all damage it would deal.  

Although I concede that point, Giant Growth works that way now and if your only criterion for whether or not damage is dealt is if the creature is on the battlefield when damage resolves, the method of removing said creature from the battlefield is irrelevant and the process remains entirely intuitive.  At the very least it is orders of magnitude more intuitive than 1) ordering creatures who take simultaneous damage 2) not assigning damage to creature N+1 until creature N has lethal 3) forgetting #1 and #2 when you are blocking with a creature that has deathtouch.

[zimagic]

At the very least it is orders of magnitude more intuitive than 1) ordering creatures who take simultaneous damage 2) not assigning damage to creature N+1 until creature N has lethal 3) forgetting #1 and #2 when you are blocking with a creature that has deathtouch.

#1 is a big thing for me. If I want my creature to thrash about in combat and deal enough to each blocking creature so that I can Pyroclasm away their guys post combat, I should be able to do that. Now I've got a ticket dispenser and everyone politely gets in line to get whacked.

[Tempus]

So, thx Wizard for this change in rules, which doesn't bother Standard, but does change Vintage.

1) Simultaneous mulligans is good for the one takeing mulligans, but bad for the one who doesn't. So Staxx and Control Players care the most about that change.

2) Change in terminology doesn't bother me, except that now my most favorite combo card got very weak. I mean, how many Doomsday stacks involve Research//Developement as a possibility to get your cards back and combo out? The most I know and I have used did. So thanks... Also Burning Wish became a lot weaker. I use this one often to get back something removed with Diminishing Returns or Demonic Consultation, but that's now impossible. Wizard must hate Stormcombodecks...

3) This rule made Tangle Wire and Smokestack much stronger. You can't flood mana in your upkeep to use it in your draw step. Sucks, but there will be a lot people loving that change...

4) Don't care

5) Well Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage, for example, become weaker and all the "Gustcloak" creatures become useless, but I can live with that.

6) & 7) Don't care...

All those changes wouldn't be necessary. The concepts of magic aren't that hard. Basicly you have to _understand_ the stack and the game is yours... How long will it take, till the stack is removed again?!

BTW Shouldn't the new B&R changes be announced by now?

[TracerBullet]

====================RIP====================

Combat Tricks

1999-2009

"It seems too many of us hardly knew ye!"

[SiegeX]

#1 is a big thing for me. If I want my creature to thrash about in combat and deal enough to each blocking creature so that I can Pyroclasm away their guys post combat, I should be able to do that. Now I've got a ticket dispenser and everyone politely gets in line to get whacked.

Not only that, but now that we have a pecking order, Righteousness type effects on the flag carrier creature can now save your X/1's from certain death.  Fortunately, if a new player is having trouble understanding these new combat rules, this WotC picture should set them straight...

[TracerBullet]

#1 is a big thing for me. If I want my creature to thrash about in combat and deal enough to each blocking creature so that I can Pyroclasm away their guys post combat, I should be able to do that. Now I've got a ticket dispenser and everyone politely gets in line to get whacked.

Not only that, but now that we have a pecking order, Righteousness type effects on the flag carrier creature can now save your X/1's from certain death.  Fortunately, if a new player is having trouble understanding these new combat rules, this WotC picture should set them straight...

That picture has to be a joke.  Seriously.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm completely lost as to what's going on in that picture. I mean I know it'll be clearer post all of that resolving, but somehow I suspect not as much as I'd hope.

[LordHomerCat]

But look how intuitive it is!

As a net, I think this is all complete garbage.  The stuff that doesn't matter, well, doesn't matter (deathtouch, lifelink).  Mulligans are fine, it doesn't really make a difference to me as long as it is consistant.  Combat Damage change is idiotic.  I thought Mana Burn was pretty important in Vintage and this is a stupid change because idiots can't read the rules and count their lands.  Terminology is stupid and I'm sticking to Play and RFG.  Tokens dont really matter.

These changes suck.  I could not be less interested in playing non-vintage after july 11th.

[vassago]

I would have to say the only thing that has been changed that I may be less than happy with would be that combat damage no longer uses the stack.  However, I do believe it's relevancy to be low, especially in the context of the "Magic" I play.  I do think that most of the changes that are being implemented here are actually good for the game.  They are clearing up a few things that just doesn't make sense. For example, Life link and Deathtouch no longer stacking.  This is a good change.  At FNM, I have seen a duder swing in with multiple "Whammers" equipped to it.  The poor noob on the other side of the table had no way to keep up with the HUGE life swing.   Regardless of whether or not he had a chance in the first place is either here nor there, but things like this seem unfair to the people that do give WOTC the most money, the casual people. 

The thing with the combat damage not using the stack, it does make more sense.  I don't like, but it actually makes more sense. Creatures not being there and dealing damage does conflict with mind of a casual player. It's sort of a rules/functional paradox, and I would think that this is the main reason why the change is being made.  I find it hard for me to be upset about this when I have been able to abuse this for the length of time that I did.  The order of damage that creatures receive doesn't have that much impact on what already exists, just applying more of a system to it in my opinion. I honestly think that is also a good change.   

Mana Burn is some what of an awkward subject for some Type 1 players.  Yes, I know that it will allow newer players to be sloppy.  I do think that this rule has been around way too long.  It is rarely relevant, and it will make the game more fun for people we will never have the pleasure of playing.

On the issue of fun, I believe these changes are being made in the idea of it.  Things being clearer and making more sense, will make it more fun.  If something like a rules issue arises, that takes away from the fun that casual guy is having. It makes the experience of playing Magic stagnant, and that shouldn't ever happen. 

[Kiriyuu]

B&R are announced June 20th and effective July 1st

[Troy_Costisick]

Meh, most of these changes don't really mean all that much.  The biggest change is damage not using the stack (as others have said).  I try to play a lot of Limited whenver I can, so this will impact me somewhat.  You just can't be as tricky during combat as you once were.  Oh well.  The only thing I don't really like about it it now is how damage is assigned when there are multiple blockers.  It precludes you, to a certain degree, from assigning 1 damage to a lot of creatures then following it up with a Pyroclasm later to wipe them out.  But not a big deal.  Just something to get used to.  For those of us who were around when 6th edition came out, these changes are pretty tame in comparison.

As for Manaburn being toasted, I'm all for it.  But the card in Vintage I think benefits the most is not Mana Drain but Ancient Tomb.  I've taken 3 damage off that card several times just because I couldn't spend the extra mana.  The loss of Manaburn won't make it more playable, but it will enhance that card when it is used.

Peace,

-Troy

[DubDub]

I haven't had time to fully digest these changes, but I think their first victim is Legacy Ad Nauseam.  Not being able to float mana from upkeep step into draw step is a pretty huge change.

I'm against removing Mana Burn on principle, though I don't think it will make a difference in the overwhelming majority of games.  I only recently found out that apparently Mana Burn can't kill you anymore anyway (automatic replacement effect that if it would reduce you to less than 1 life, only to 1 instead.).  To be fair I only just found that out because it only just made a difference to a game I was playing (once in last 8 months).

I'm disappointed in the nerf given to the Wishes.  I don't mind changing terminology (except that 'battlefield' crap), but I don't think that should result in functionality changes.

I'm also a bit suspicious of this:

All of the following changes—there are seven of note, some with multiple relevant pieces—have been tested rigorously here in R&D and by other Magic players of all varieties here at the company in many play formats, ranging from Sealed Deck to Standard to Elder Dragon Highlander to the forthcoming Planechase format.

He doesn't mention the eternal formats, which it seems are increasingly becoming an afterthought (GP:Chicago notwithstanding).  I'm too frustrated to write any more cogently right now.

[GrandpaBelcher]

In other news, Major League Baseball will forgo the use of balls and strikes because backyard Wiffle Ball players either did not use or had trouble understanding the system. Instead each player will get three swings or 10 pitches, whichever comes first.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

looks like they're planing to give us back 4x burning wish.

[Eastman]

Simultaneous mulls is fine - speeding up tournament play is important (and seems to be a basis for a lot of recent restrictions, etc.).  Helps ichorid players maybe, since people won't know what they're up against game 1. 

No mana burn = bad for aggro.  Mana burn occurs in a significant proportion of vintage games. 

Combat change is HUGE.  Not so much for vintage (though somewhat) but this drastically changes the way the game is played in other formats, especially draft. 

[Klep]

The change in combat dumbs down one of the most interesting aspects of the game, a part that is at the core of the limited formats that are just about my favorite way to play Magic.  Last night I was angry about the changes, but now I'm mostly just sad because my interest in the game has been substantially reduced.  Though there have been plenty of previous changes I disagreed with, sometimes vehemently, none of them affected whether or not (or how much) I wanted to play Magic.  This one has.

My persistent interest in Magic is in large part a direct result of its complexity.  Of being able to get a skill advantage over my opponents because of a better and deeper understanding of the game.  These combat changes diminish my ability to do that, and so make Magic a worse game for me.  I'm genuinely sad to say that I'm now less interested in the game.  I will probably continue to play it and be involved in it, but (pun intended) some of the magic is gone.  

[wiley]

I don't get the part for multiple blockers.  Why do I have to assign lethal damage one after another, and tell my opponent the order that I'm doing it in?  I guess the telling them the order part is necessary for the whole no stack damage thing, but I shouldn't be forced into treating every single one of my creatures has 'dumb trample' when met by a line of blockers.  Now what happens with something like cruel deceiver (which they mention in the article as having deathtouch removed) when I activate its ability and it is blocked by 2 2/2s, or what if I have bad moon effects in play and put lure on it (we are talking about rules designed for the casual community right?)?  Intuitively I would think that I could cockatrice everything the opponent has, including those pesky 4/4s they have out.  It doesn't seem like that works anymore :/

How about a less casual example:

my 6/6 is blocked by Wizened Cenn and two Goldmeadow Stalwarts. I lose the ability to deal 2 to each, and have them all die.

The change seems to only detract from combat math of any kind.  From a flavor standpoint you would think that the 2 stalwarts were getting help from the cenn, until the cenn died and then they died from their wounds, which is also how I would intuitively look at it.  Now your big dumb 6/6 (which is supposed to be guided by you) stops following your orders and goes after the cenn and a single stalwart to be killed by the final limping stalwart.  Seems far less intuitive to me.

The mana system changes are ok with me, the empty the pool at end of steps and phases changes the whole light on the subject from my view point.  I still don't like that there are cards that will now effectively be blank, especially when there is still so much 'functionality'/power errata that exists from the last rules change.

I couldn't care less about name changes.  Some people never stopped using cast, always used activate and still call Vintage Type 1.  As long as we can communicate and understand what the other people are trying to say it will all work out.

[tito del monte]

looks like they're planing to give us back 4x burning wish.

Possibly Gush too if they're nixing Research/Development and weakening Doomsday.

Anyway, I've yet to fully digest these rule changes - still getting my head round 6th Edition to be honest.. I think losing mana burn is real shame - not too much to ask of players to exercise a little discipline in how they marshal their resources - a large part of what the whole game is built on.