Vintage Adept Q & A: Time Walk Strategy

[Demonic Attorney]

Time Walk in your first 8-9 cards, how do you play it? Just cantrip it as soon as you can or set up a specific situation to maximize its value?

[ErkBek]

Varies a lot with the deck.

In fish, 90% of the time you've got other things you can cast with 2 mana in the early game. You hold off on Walk until turn 3-5 and use it to push your advantage (ie draw extra cards with Confidant, get 2 attack steps, etc).

Back in the days of Grim Long, I would cast Walk when it was apparent I wasn't going to assemble a Threat + Walk turn (Walk on turn 1 is an exception). This way you can assemble series of plays along the lines of: Time Walk then bomb (countered), untap into Yawg Will, etc.

Can't comment much in terms of the how Walk should be played in Drains.

[forests failed you]

In my opinion in a Drain deck it is almost always right to cast Walk as soon as you can.  If I can cast it turn one off a Mox I usually do, because it lets me put up Mana Drain right away.  The only time you might want to not cast it is in a Drain mirror on the draw without a Mox, if your opponent has two Islands up.  Getting a Walk drained and being tapped out is pretty loose. 

If I know it is going to resolve there are very few moments when I won't just run it and try to get ahead on mana and tempo.

[Harlequin]

Certain decks will be designed to be "Always cast Walk" or "Save walk for something" like certain combo decks, aggro-control decks.  Drain decks, and spesifically, Drain decks facing some form of control decks are the 'Interesting' case.

As a Drain deck against a know control deck (or against a random unknown opponent), I think it all comes down to: can you gain a land advantage.  In general, I won't timewalk early spending my only 2 mana without the 3rd mana in sight.

To illustrate Consider these hands:
Land, Land, Walk, Drain, Force, Thirst, Tezz. 
I would probably hope to stay on Drain and hope to use the mana to cast Thirst or Tezz.  This hand is showing me that I want to drain with Force backer.  If I drain small I can pitch Tezz to cast thirst and probably also cast timewalk next turn. If I drain big and I can reverse that and cast Tezz. 

Considering Timewalk itself I have only a slim hope that Timewalk isn't just Cycle .  But let's say I do cast Timewalk.  If Timewalk is unexpectedly countered here (REB, spellsnare, daze), I'm between a rock and a hard place.  If I Force back pitching Tezz, I'm really hoping to make my Drain into Thirst good or rip a mana source.  If I force pitching Thirst, I'm just really hoping they play big on the next turn they get so I can drop Tezz for a cheap win.  If I force pitching Drain I'm sorta a bad control player... and/or really hoping to rip lotus on my timewalk turn.   This means if I did cast Timewalk and some unexpected counter happened I would probably just let it get countered. And hope that my force is enough to get me to next turn where I can untap and get back on drain.

Lets swap that Tezz for a Ponder and look at what that does to the options --
Land, Land, Walk, Drain, Force, Thirst, Ponder. 

Here I'm much more likely to play the timewalk in the hopes of getting that +1 land advantage on my extra turn via Ponder.   Waiting is still an option, but It means when I drain with force backer I really have to throw either ponder or walk which is more like a 3-for-1.  And it means I REALLY have to draw amazing off Thirst. 

So let’s say I cast Timewalk.  If that REB, Snare or Daze rears its head now, I have Force pitching thirst or drain, and either has merit depending what I expect my opponent has left.  Either way, if I force back, in my extra turn ponder can smooth and reinforce either choice I make.  And with any luck give me that +1 land I was looking for.

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As a bonus reply, I think something to consider is when is it 'good' to counter a turn 1-2 Timewalk? 
In the control-combo Mirror is a bit of a gamble.  They may get that land advantage; or they may be baiting you or fishing for a land.  Its difficult to gauge if this play is a sign of weakness or strength. 

If you're playing a Tempo deck like UBx Fish, RG beats, or Selkie.  It’s almost always a solid play.  In Selkie (a deck I have alot of experiance playing), I'll counter turn 1 and 2 timewalks without giving it a second though.  Countering a timewalk can be a form of mana denial, especially if they have that 3rd mana to drop.  For a tempo deck, you don't need to know if Timewalk is a sign of weakness or strength ~ because it's tempo either way.  So strike it down if you can.

[ELD]

In my opinion in a Drain deck it is almost always right to cast Walk as soon as you can.  If I can cast it turn one off a Mox I usually do, because it lets me put up Mana Drain right away.  The only time you might want to not cast it is in a Drain mirror on the draw without a Mox, if your opponent has two Islands up.  Getting a Walk drained and being tapped out is pretty loose.

If I know it is going to resolve there are very few moments when I won't just run it and try to get ahead on mana and tempo.

That assumes you've got the next land drop in hand, or the ability to use excess mana on the turn before you get your time walk.  In those situation, Walk is obviously amazing.  There are many times where Time Walk is the worst blue cards in hand.  If a player has UU up early, Drain, FoW and some good card draw, Walk can often become the card that gets pitched, giving two counters, and saving the gas to pull ahead on card advantage.  Time Walk, when it's only a cantrip, is underwhelming, and I've seen a lot of really good players lose to not seeing this.  Players often keep hands where if you replace Walk with either a land, or another draw spell, it is very weak.  They take the gamble of hitting what they need off the cantrip, and when they whiff, get blown out. 

I most often play Time Walk asap, but there are definitely a large variety of situations where I will save Time Walk as a blue card, get double use out of my mana or attack step, or pull an opponent off their mana for counters. 

[Demonic Attorney]

In my view, Time Walk can serve two purposes, depending on your needs.  It can be used for short-term tempo gain to develop board position, or it can be used to amplify resources and turn them into exponentially greater threats and/or card advantage.

The former use of Time Walk is probably the most common among Vintage players.  Cantrip it and get another land drop.  Contrary to other responses to this question, this is not my preferred use for Time Walk.  As a Drain player, I'll use Time Walk for this purpose in the following common scenarios:

1.  Getting an additional land drop will do something for me in terms of positioning, like putting Drain mana online when I think I'll likely need it, or get me to an EOT Thirst a turn sooner, etc.

2.  When the opponent has indicated they have a play coming up soon (like playing out Moxes and not immediately doing anything with them) and I need to try to keep pace.

3.  When I'm paired against combo, Elves, or some other primarily-early game deck and the game is just a race to see if they win before I can stabilize.

There's nothing wrong with this application of Time Walk, but I generally try to wait on playing it to make it pay more dividends.  That's the other use of Time Walk I adverted to above; amplifying resources.  That's not the best description, so maybe some examples will clarify:

1.  Playing Time Walk with active Library.  This is, by far, my favorite thing to do with Time Walk.  The amplification of the card advantage generated by LoA is positively back-breaking.  This application of Time Walk alongside LoA is a de facto Ancestral that doubles your available mana and gives you an extra attack step.  It's rare indeed that any opponent ever comes back from this.

2.  Baiting someone off their counter mana and then punching through the real threat next turn.  ELD touched on this.  I'll play a bait spell on my second main phase, with UU up to bluff Drain, and then go for Time Walk afterwards.  Either my bait spell draws a critical counter and opens the way for a major threat next turn, or I get to play a moderate threat first and then follow up on my Time Walk turn with access to my full mana.

3.  Unexpectedly accelerating a kill mechanism.  I do this once every 1 or 2 tournaments, and this is also a fantastic use of Time Walk.  I'll make defensive, longer-term plays while my opponent presses an offensive blitz, and it will start to look like I can't keep up and will be out-raced.  I'll wait for the last possible opportunity and run out my endgame finisher, which in itself won't be enough, unless I have...that's right, Time Walk.  Time Walk makes Tezzeret a much more immediate concern, cuts the window to answer DSC by one full turn, puts Welder on active status immediately, and all sorts of other good stuff.  If you hang onto Time Walk, you can put together some spectacular last-minute surges from seemingly out of nowhere.

As I adverted to above, choosing between the applications of Time Walk depends largely on whether you need short-term or long-term gains.  The short-term gains tend to be smaller, but against early game decks like combo, they're necessary to make sure a long game happens at all.  Or, if you have a chance of just blowing your opponent out with Mox, Sol Ring, Academy, Time Walk, Thirst, next turn land, EOT Gifts, well, there's little reason to wait on that. 

But, generally speaking, the longer you wait on Time Walk, the more it will do for you.  I sum up my view of Time Walk's function as a doubler.  Double your mana, double your attack step, double your draws.  The later the game goes, the more resources you'll have to double, and the bigger your gains will be.  Also, the longer the game goes, the more likely you'll be to find an opening where an unexpected Time Walk will dramatically change your position against your opponent.

[Smmenen]

Wow, this is is deceptively difficult question.

Time Walk is a pivotally important card, both from a tactical and a strategic perspective.

The most strategic use of time walk is when you play a key bomb which triggers a counterwar, your opponent commits fully, you lose the counterwar, but follow it all up with Time Walk, untap with full mana and full firepower only to fire off another key bomb, such as Yawgmoth's Will.    Decks like TPS and old school Tog would use Time Walk in such a manner.   I'm certain that Tezzeret in a mirror match would act accordingly, although I have no experience to back that up.   I can easily imagine Tezzeret playing a monster spell, losing the counterwar, but using remaining mana to play Time Walk, untap, and play an equivalent bomb.  

Between these two extremes: using time walk as a glorified turnabout and using it as a cantrip there does lie a third option.  When playing Grow based decks, both in the Gush era and more recently, I have deferred on using it to ensure more damage in situations similar to those described by others.  

[Yare]

My default rule with Time Walk is to generally play it as soon as possible. When in doubt, I play Time Walk. The reason for this is that I’ve found that trying to hold back with Time Walk usually just results in a bad outcome, be it because my opponent Duresses it away or I have to tap out for it when I know my opponent is likely holding a counter or whatever. I will lead with it to try to bait counters sometimes, but my opponents let it resolve 95% of the time, so this rarely works. I know I rarely counter Time Walk.

That being said, there are rules for when I deviate from the default rule of playing Time Walk immediately.

If it's deciding between Time Walk and a business spell, it's situational. If I think Time Walk is likely to bait a counter or give me that one more mana in order to make the next turn potentially very explosive, I'll lead with Time Walk. On the other hand, if I lead with the business spell, it's possible that I may draw into Black Lotus (or some other mana) that will allow me to play Time Walk that same turn. Essentially, it's a question of deciding whether the Time Walk sets up the business spell or the business spell sets up Time Walk. The answer could potentially be "both," which means you should probably lead with Time Walk in hopes of either baiting a counter or drawing into protection of some sort (Force, Drain, Duress, etc.).

If Time Walk can set up the win a turn faster within the next turn or two, possibly catching my opponent off guard, I will hold back. If I have to project into the future any farther than that, I will generally just play Time Walk, because things change too rapidly to really depend on it in those situations. Besides, playing it “too early” will sometimes set up a situation where you can play what would have been a less than impressive Yawgmoth’s Will that becomes a lot better because you can play Time Walk again.

If I have Force of Will in hand, I will usually hold back, even if I am only holding Force and Time Walk and have nothing of note on the board. If my opponent and I are in a topdecking war, my opponent will have to draw two bombs in order to win the war (or a bomb and a counter or whatever). I, on the other hand, only have to draw my bomb or a blue card in order to play Time Walk or play the bomb with counter backup. In fact, I often hold back with Ancestral Recall, if it’s my only blue card with Force, if I have other bombs available for fear of not getting the blue card from the three drawn cards. Of course, there will be situations where urgency will require that you find the win right this second or lose. If your opponent is beating down with Sundering Titan, having Force up isn’t going to help you. Alternatively, if your opponent has a counter in his hand, but you’re going to lose next turn anyway, you just have to play Time Walk and hope your opponent makes a play error.

In the early turns, if I have Drain mana open, I’m holding Drain, and playing Time Walk would turn off Drain, I will hold back. One of the biggest things about why I don’t like Library of Alexandria is because it makes Drain a turn slower (or, alternatively, may keep Drain from getting online at all if you only have the two mana sources). The situation is exactly the same with Time Walk. If Time Walk gets countered (which seems more likely if you’ve tapped out, though, again, in my experience it rarely gets countered), you’re out Drain for the next turn, which could be the difference. What do you get in return for this? Oftentimes just one new card. It’s not worth the risk when you hopefully can just wait a turn or two, get Drain mana and Time Walk mana online (meaning, you have 1UUU available), then just play Time Walk. Note, however, that I won’t bluff about having Drain in hand by leaving the mana open when I could just play Time Walk. People will often play into a player with UU open anyway, either because they have two bombs available, they think you’re bluffing, they’re poor players, they’re desperate, or any other number of reasons. Essentially, denying yourself that one card matters when you don’t have anything else. Of course, this might be subject to the Force of Will exception I mentioned above.

In summary, don’t get too bent out of shape about holding back with Time Walk. When in doubt, play it, untap, and draw your card. Otherwise, you’ll be stuck holding it at the end of the game or it will get Duressed away.

[forests failed you]

I would for sure play Walk if I didn't have another land.  At that point what are you saving it for?  It at least lets you dig another Mana deeper.  Even if I have Brainstorm or Ponder, I would likely still Walk first and then ponder the next card.  It lets you see one card deeper if you absolutely need a land.  Plus, there is less chance it will get Duressed, or Drained if you wait.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I agree with most of the above.  I'd organize it like this:

-fish style decks-

Time walk will rarely be the best early play.  It is much more beneficial in conjunction with existing damage on the board, stuff like dark confidant, or in opportunities where you can go threat (countered?), walk, threat.

-ritual and drain decks-

The rate at which you play time walk is inverse bell curve related to how aggressive your hand is relative to your role in the matchup.  If you have an explosive hand where an early time walk will facilitate you applying pressure, play it.  If you have an average hand where you can set up midgame threat, walk, threat, wait.  If you have little gas and time walk may help you find a land drop, tutor or fow, play it.  You can get more specific depending on the exact deck/matchup/card (e.g. LoA), but I think that's a pretty good summary.

[meadbert]

One of the biggest fallacies I see regarding Time Walk is that players tend to assume that like Yawg Will, it becomes more powerful as it is played later in the game.

In a game where you are hitting your land drops this is not true at all.

Consider playing Walk on turn 2 versus playing on turn 6.

Playing Walk on turn 6 with 6 lands out seems really broken because you now get to untap 6 lands and thus Walk sort of ends up costing -4 which is insane for a cantrip.
Assuming you hit your land drop on turn 6.b you end up with 11 mana to use outside of Time Walk on that turn.  This is an extra 5 mana that Time Walk gives you.

The Walk on turn 2 only untapped 2 lands which is much weaker.  But is it?  After you untap 2 lands you hit your land drop and you now have 3 mana available on turn 2.b.  Thus, you gained 1 extra mana for turn 2.  On turn 3 you also gain an extra mana.   On turn 4 you also gained an extra mana.  Assuming you keep hitting land drops this continues.

At the end the comparison is would you rather get 5 extra mana on turn 6, or would you rather get 1 extra mana on turns 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

The mana gained is equal in both situations, but you get access to some of it much sooner if Walk is dropped on turn 2.  How relevant this is depends on the "interest rate" in type 1.  I estimate the interest rate to be quite high at around 40% per turn making an early Walk much more powerful than a late Walk.

This analysis does assume that you are hitting your land drops.  Missing a land drop after an early Walk turns it into a much worse card.  For this reason if your only mana sources are a land and an off color mox and you are holding Scroll and Walk then you are better off Scrolling for Recall and passing the turn.  Next turn you can then Recall and probably hit a land and then Walk.  The risk of Walking first is that you do not top deck a blue source and your Time Walk just turned into a worse version of Mishra's Bauble.

Also, while this argument suggests that Walk wants to be played early, it turns out that most cards want to be played early and it is quite possible that a different card wants to be played early even more than Time Walk does.  Obvious examples are creatures.  If you are choosing between Walk and Tinker->DSC or Walk and Dark Confident, then as much as you may want to play Walk sooner, you want to get Tinker or Dark Confidant out sooner even more thus you should lead with those.

[The Atog Lord]

This question, as Steve pointed out, is not a simple one. Any answer to this question is going to be dependent on board position, cards in hand, and a host of other factors. Bearing this in mind, here are a few thoughts.

Getting your Time Walk Mana Drained on the second turn is awful. This situation comes up, for example, when the opponent has two lands open and you play your second land of the game. Playing Time Walk at this point can lead to disaster. It means that the opponent can enter his third turn, play a Thirst, and still leave Drain mana open. It also means that he can play Tezzeret on his turn, or Tinker with Drain mana open. It even accelerates the opponent into Time Vault and Key with the mana to activate it. So, I'd be hesitant to cast Time Walk here -- but might, under the right circumstances.

Otherwise, in a traditional Mana Drain deck, I'm generally in favor of running out Time Walk as quickly as possible. At best, I get a free land drop. At worst, it cycles itself. There's rather little reason to save it for later in most Drain builds, though of course one must be conscious of game state.

One reason to delay playing a Time Walk is if you could instead play a Dark Confidant or other creature that turn -- but could not also play the Time Walk. Time Walk's value goes up when you have a creature in play, so waiting maximizes the value. This is especially true if your choice is between casting Time Walk and casting Tinker for Colossus -- it speeds up the win that much more to wait. Finally -- and this should be obvious -- Time Walk is worse when you're maintaining a Mystic Remora, since it increases the number of counters on it.

[Eastman]

I agree with what's been said for the most part.  But to rehash and sort of summarize the way I use it:

The background rule, the sort of 'default', is just playing and cycling the Time Walk. That advances your game and gets it in the yard for later.  But, there are a large number of exceptions.

1.  If you have time-based threats (LoA or goyf or anything like that) in hand or expect them to be relevant, wait until they are on the board. 
2.  If the game seems to be settling into a slow classic drain mirror, save it for abuse on the turn of the counterwar and to avoid a drain. (i.e. if you have only reactive spells and your opponent just went island go)
3.  If it is the only blue card backing up your Force of Will or Misdirection, save it. 

[vroman]

When Ive tested 5cstax, Ive always included time walk.
situations to cast walk
-hand is 2x 1mana-land + mox + 3 drop
-play threat + walk, assume they tap out to counter threat, untap and play additional threat.
-have smoky on board
-have welder/bazaar and relevant plays
-cantrip out of desperation

I wait on time walk as long as possible if theres no strategic advantage