Vault Oath

[voltron00x]

I haven't been all that happy with my recent Oath list, for several reasons.  First, Chalice of the Void was proving to be a dead card in way too many games.  When I wasn't on the play, it hardly did anything against Tezz, and playing it on 1 ended up hurting me as much as helping against most opponents.  It also is completely dead against Ichorid.  Second, the Tinker plan that I tried with Inkwell gave me an alternate win condition, but in 23 rounds I lost as many games due to hitting Inkwell as I won because I had Tinker in my deck.  I thought it might be time for a change, but what to add to the deck?  After some testing, here's the list I ended up with.  Losing the Chalices is kind of rough, but this deck has a seriously amped-up power level compared to the previous build, and is far more consistent for a variety of reasons:

Vault Oath:

4 Oath of Druids
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy
1 Scroll Rack
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

SB:
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Oxidize
2 Echoing Truth
2 Empyrial Archangel
1 Massacre

Here are the changes:  
-1 Progenitus, -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Tinker, -1 Inkwell Leviathan, -1 Wasteland
+1 Scroll Rack, +1 Lat-Nam's Legacy, +1 Time Vault, +1 Voltaic Key, +1 Merchant Scroll, +1 Duress, +1 Hellkite Overlord, +1 Island

The primary purpose is to eliminate some of the junky draws I was getting with Progenitus Oath.  Too many times, my 7 card hand contained both a creature and Chalice of the Void when I was on the draw, meaning against many decks I was already on a mulligan to 5.  This deck has only 2 creatures (both Hellkites) and has Scroll Rack, Brainstorm, AND Lat-Nam's Legacy to shuffle back the dragons or Blessing back into the deck.  The extra discard spells (up to 6) with Force of Will and Misdirection give the deck a much better chance of resolving Oath against Tezzeret, and running only Hellkites makes it much more likely to win quickly.

The secondary purpose was to increase the overall power level by adding Regrowth, putting Merchant Scroll back into the deck, and adding the Vault/Key combo.  Using the tutors (Demonic, Vamp, and the 2 Vaults) and card filtering (4 Impulse, Brainstorm, Ponder, Scroll Rack) it is reasonably easy to complete the Vault / Key combo if you draw one piece.  

In the sideboard, I upped the number of Oxidize out of respect for the increasing success of 5C Stax.  Generally speaking that match-up is in this deck's favor, with all of the discard, counterspells, and bounce + artifact removal post-SB.  The Ichorid match-up post-SB is also very solid, with Jailer, Crypt, Needle, the Waste & Strip main, plus access to Echoing Truth and the Archangels.

We ran this list through its paces last night, and so far it seems to be performing quite well.  However, there are a number of parts still up in the air.  For instance, do I want to run Akroma instead of a 2nd Dragon?  (probably not in this environment, but still curious)  Run a 3rd Hellkite or Akroma over Scroll Rack?  Should I squeeze in Yawg Will somewhere?  Should I go back to 4 Thoughtseize/Duress and play 2 Negate for a 4/2 split?  Is there a very compelling reason in this environment to still play Chalice of the Void?  Do I change the mana base back to the source deck by cutting a Trop for the 2nd Wasteland?

Thoughts?

[JudasKilled]

I think chalice will help you out in a few matchse but besides torm none of the relevant ones.

Not sure if i like the dragons over progenitus, the fact that they cant stop him at all is pretty good.

I dont know if I like the discard, I think id rather run more counters and make sure your shit ticks and theres doesnt.

+ a grip of 6 cards all being counters and a oath resolving is GG, against storm id rather have the discard but my metagame is 55%ish tezz

[voltron00x]

I think chalice will help you out in a few matchse but besides torm none of the relevant ones.

Not sure if i like the dragons over progenitus, the fact that they cant stop him at all is pretty good.

I dont know if I like the discard, I think id rather run more counters and make sure your shit ticks and theres doesnt.

+ a grip of 6 cards all being counters and a oath resolving is GG, against storm id rather have the discard but my metagame is 55%ish tezz

Progenitus isn't fast enough with the local field becoming heavily fast tezz, ichorid, and storm.  I love the card, but I think its day has passed until the meta shifts to something with more Fish and Shops.

I have 5 "free" counters, and Negate is often worse than the discard at helping you stick an Oath against Tezz.  That oath list only runs 23 mana sources, so hitting 4 mana to Oath with Negate back-up is often too slow.  Again, this list is built for speed and consistency.

[mr.grim]

Dub. hellkite I feel is not a great time. Akroma due to first strike, and that good old not needin to tap is the key.The angel in the sb make for a happy oath player !!!!!!

[Sam101]

About your creature choice:

I would run 1 Akroma and 1 Hellkite, as after two turns that is still 20 damage (no matter which comes into play first)

OR

I would run 1 Magister Sphinx and 1 Progenitus

Sam

[voltron00x]

About your creature choice:

I would run 1 Akroma and 1 Hellkite, as after two turns that is still 20 damage (no matter which comes into play first)

OR

I would run 1 Magister Sphinx and 1 Progenitus

Sam

Your first point is only true provided that both creatures are still in the deck and neither get killed by my opponent.  For example, say I oath into a Dragon and connect once, and my opponent then Plows it or Edicts me during their turn.  I then oath into Akroma, and connect... but they aren't dead.  Double Dragon is more likely to result in them being dead even if they deal with the first creature.  It probably won't matter and it's a corner case, but it's still a possibility.  Further, consider the times when one creature is stranded in hand.  If you play Akroma and Hellkite, and have Hellkite in hand, you need 3, maybe even 4 turns to win.  If you have 2 Hellkites and one is in hand, you win in 3 swings, but probably only need two (8 + 1 pump from Orchard).

Also, Ad Nauseam is seeing a decent amount of play at Blue Bell anymore, and Hellkite is better there because it is swinging in for probably 9 damage immediately, and the extra life points can actually matter.  I used to run one Hellkite and one Akroma, so I'm familiar with the math - it's just that both die to the same spells (more or less, considering what is played in the format), and I haven't needed a creature to sit back on defense in God knows how long.  The fact that it CAN be relevant is the only reason I'm on the fence between 2 Hellkites vs 1 Hellkite / 1 Akroma.

1 Magister Sphinx and 1 Progenitus is interesting.  Both are Blue, so in an emergency either can pitch to FoW.  However, I sort of have the same concern.  If Magister Sphinx is in my hand, Progenitus takes 3 turns to win.  If Progenitus is in my hand (which is less likely because you can Thoughtseize him back into the deck, but still possible), Sphinx also takes three turns, but he is very vulnerable as a creature with no protection AND an artifact.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

About your creature choice:

I would run 1 Akroma and 1 Hellkite, as after two turns that is still 20 damage (no matter which comes into play first)

OR

I would run 1 Magister Sphinx and 1 Progenitus

Sam

Your first point is only true provided that both creatures are still in the deck and neither get killed by my opponent.  For example, say I oath into a Dragon and connect once, and my opponent then Plows it or Edicts me during their turn.  I then oath into Akroma, and connect... but they aren't dead.  Double Dragon is more likely to result in them being dead even if they deal with the first creature.  It probably won't matter and it's a corner case, but it's still a possibility.  Further, consider the times when one creature is stranded in hand.  If you play Akroma and Hellkite, and have Hellkite in hand, you need 3, maybe even 4 turns to win.  If you have 2 Hellkites and one is in hand, you win in 3 swings, but probably only need two (8 + 1 pump from Orchard).

Also, Ad Nauseam is seeing a decent amount of play at Blue Bell anymore, and Hellkite is better there because it is swinging in for probably 9 damage immediately, and the extra life points can actually matter.  I used to run one Hellkite and one Akroma, so I'm familiar with the math - it's just that both die to the same spells (more or less, considering what is played in the format), and I haven't needed a creature to sit back on defense in God knows how long.  The fact that it CAN be relevant is the only reason I'm on the fence between 2 Hellkites vs 1 Hellkite / 1 Akroma.

1 Magister Sphinx and 1 Progenitus is interesting.  Both are Blue, so in an emergency either can pitch to FoW.  However, I sort of have the same concern.  If Magister Sphinx is in my hand, Progenitus takes 3 turns to win.  If Progenitus is in my hand (which is less likely because you can Thoughtseize him back into the deck, but still possible), Sphinx also takes three turns, but he is very vulnerable as a creature with no protection AND an artifact.

it recently made top 8 in a pretty competitive field. My list can be found here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38167.msg531338#new
I ran progenitus and sphinx. Originally I wanted to run solo progenitus, because with the tfk's I didn't need to brainstorm in back, and didn't need to count on blessing to get him back either. So I could chalice @1 all day long and it never really bit me in the ass.
I included the sphinx because separately they kill at the same speed, and the sphinx is great with tfk (it always you to 1st roll over progenitus and if half the time it’s easy 2oath activation kill)
Generally I would agree about sphinx being an artifact, and easily killed, but most people either hate on the artifacts, or the oath. Decks that run things that hate on both, like krosan grip and seal, are the types of decks you sb in empyreal archangel.