June 19th B+R Announcement!

[Troy_Costisick]

Anyway, my thoughts regarding highlander vintage, as I have a couple of friends who've made similar complaints.  I don't see this as a future problem, I think the more they analyze the field, and try to restrict / unrestrict various cards, the healthier the enviroment will be.  I think that the current changes will do some good for the field, without completely breaking it to pieces.  There are alternatives out their for thirst for knowledge (granted some are expensive, like that particular 1U spell that people are running that costs $100, the name escapes me).

I do not think intuition would need to be restricted, otherwise that would only prove WOTC is destroying blue as hard as it can.  If we keep jumping draw engine to draw engine, eventually we are going to be playing a restricted list + something horrible like mulldrifters? 

Don't be too quick to say something like that.  The rationale they gave for restricting Gifts Ungiven was that it was an effecient tutor, not because it creates card advantage.  When you think about it, how different is Gifts from Intuition?  But honestly, I hope it never comes to that.  I'm sick of restrictions.  There's still a good 6 to 8 cards that could come off the B/R list.  That avenue needs to be tried before any more restrictions are considered IMO.

Peace,

-Troy

[Lurker101]

I'm really happy to see entomb come off the list and I can understand Thirst getting the axe. I wish they would have unrestricted burning wish too though. I'm also looking forward to hopefully see more Parfait lists out there.

[T00L]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

[oneofchaos]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

In other formats like standard a few years ago, it was not a shock with skullclamp was banned.  It was not a shock when skullclamp was banned in legacy/extended as well. It was not a shock when lackey and tinker were banned in extended.  Why does it always have to be a shock which cards in our dear format get the ax?

[Blue Lotus]

I hope Remora becomes the draw engine of choice so I can play workshop aggro.  That would be lovely.

[T00L]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

In other formats like standard a few years ago, it was not a shock with skullclamp was banned.  It was not a shock when skullclamp was banned in legacy/extended as well. It was not a shock when lackey and tinker were banned in extended.  Why does it always have to be a shock which cards in our dear format get the ax?

Well all those cards you just mentioned were good...

[lilmidget]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

while 99% of the people here will agree that they don't understand the format as well as they should, they have one thing we never will: foresight into what cards will be coming out in future sets and the some implications those cards will bring. i like to give them the benefit of the doubt...sometimes

as such, one thing i noticed about this tread is that while most people are here complaining about the restriction of thirst, not many have offered an alternative to taking down tezzeret other than restricting drain. drain will never be restricted because if it ever was, it'll set a powerful chain of events where it'll only be a matter of time before shop and bazaar gets restricted right after.

[Lurker101]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

In other formats like standard a few years ago, it was not a shock with skullclamp was banned.  It was not a shock when skullclamp was banned in legacy/extended as well. It was not a shock when lackey and tinker were banned in extended.  Why does it always have to be a shock which cards in our dear format get the ax?

Well all those cards you just mentioned were good...

And Thirst wasn't? Thirst is a damn good card that has been seeing a hell of a lot of play in a wide variety of decks for awhile. It fills the yard with artifacts to weld in, filters/draws 3 cards for 3 mana with a card advantage of +1 and is easy to drain into. Was it broken? no. But was it too efficient? Yes.

[T00L]

If they didn't care, they wouldn't bother to ever make any changes at all.  They care.  They just can't make everyone happy.  Such is the way of these things.  But the fact they tinker with the B/R list to any extent means they are interested in the format's health.

Peace,

-Troy

Its fine if they are interested in the format but I'd rather the people tinkering with the B/R list actually understand the format before the go restricting random cards that don't matter.

In other formats like standard a few years ago, it was not a shock with skullclamp was banned.  It was not a shock when skullclamp was banned in legacy/extended as well. It was not a shock when lackey and tinker were banned in extended.  Why does it always have to be a shock which cards in our dear format get the ax?

Well all those cards you just mentioned were good...

And Thirst wasn't? Thirst is a damn good card that has been seeing a hell of a lot of play in a wide variety of decks for awhile. It fills the yard with artifacts to weld in, filters/draws 3 cards for 3 mana with a card advantage of +1 and is easy to drain into. Was it broken? no. But was it too efficient? Yes.

Apparently you failed to see what I did there

[Vegeta2711]

At this point, they should officially restrict every blue card not named Mana Drain or Force of Will.

Although I do enjoy people getting excited about Entomb coming back when it'll be played in fuck-all except garbage people want to just have fun with at 20 man tourneys.

[The_spooky_kid]

I for one am happy with all the changes that were made to the banned and restricted lists.  I am an advocater of change.  I honestly believe the people behind the banned and restriction changes know what they are doing, and there not a bunch of brain dead idiots.  Thirst for knowledge has been a staple of control decks since its print in mirrodin.  I highly believe that they do not restrict cards based solely because of one deck, or unrestrict cards with the sole purpose to make one particular deck better.  Everyone thinks that crop rotation will only be good in a stax variant, but rest assured there are a lot of loam type decks in legacy, and other control variants that can use crop rotation.  Crop rotation being unrestricted by no means makes land destruction that much greater.  Picture this:  a player plays a 5c land taps and plays a turn one crop rotation sacrificing there land. If that card were to be countered, it would set the player back quite a ways, or even if it did resolve and they got strip mine, you could crop rotate your own land in response making your crop rotation a near 2 for 1.  Crop rotation is a very balanced card, and its fair to say that WOTC saw that. 

I will enjoy seeing all the changes in deck construction, and to see how these changes will truly effect vintage.

[Eastman]

I am most people in my play group are very happy with these changes. 

[Stormanimagus]

Just for reference: I organized what the July 1 Restricted List will look like by color:

Restricted

Artifact (15):
* Black Lotus
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Sol Ring
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Vault
* Mana Crypt
* Lotus Petal
* Lion’s Eye Diamond
* Memory Jar
* Trinisphere
* Time Vault

Blue (16):
* Ancestral Recall
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Mind’s Desire
* Tinker
* Windfall
* Gifts Ungiven
* Fact Or Fiction
* Brainstorm
* Gush
* Ponder
* Mystical Tutor
* Merchant Scroll
* Frantic Search
* Thirst For Knowledge
* Flash

Black (7):
* Yawgmoth’s Will
* Yawgmoth’s Bargain
* Necropotence
* Demonic Tutor
* Vampiric Tutor
* Imperial Seal
* Demonic Consultation

Red (2):
* Burning Wish
* Wheel Of Fortune

Green (3):
* Fastbond
* Channel
* Regrowth

White (1):
* Balance

Land (3):
* Tolarian Academy
* Strip Mine
* Library Of Alexandria

Total Restricted Cards [47]

This clearly illustrates just how dominant Blue is and how few Broken cards have ever been printed for Green, Red, and White.

I'm not sure what could be done to this list to further improve the Vintage format and I'd like to see what these unrestrictions accomplish, but there are still some cards I'd like to see taken off this list:

*Burning Wish
*Windfall
*Regrowth
*Ponder

*I think combo needs some help right now and Ponder really doesn't do much for Tezzeret IMO. I could see some Tezz lists perhaps running 2-3 Ponder, but never 4 and I can definitely see how combo would benefit. IMO Ponder isn't that much better than Serum Visions but it is enough better that I'd definitely use it in TPS as a 4-of.

*Burning Wish really loses a lot with the rules change, but, more importantly, loses a lot sans LED. Give it back to us!

*Windfall could be a bit controversial, but I think of it as being a pretty balanced card that would give TPS a bad Draw-7. It could also in Belcher Lists in Theory to Refill the hand and dig. I think it is just fair enough to be unrestricted, but, again, it is the card I'm least sure about. I like that it really only works in offensive oriented decks. If you are holding cards in hand (like a Mana Drain deck will often be doing) it becomes a weak card and is definitely NOT playable.

*Regrowth might just be an outright mistake to unrestrict, but I think its color restriction of being Green might make it playable but not broken.

Anyway, those are some thoughts and a broken down new Restricted List for you all to peruse.

[M.Solymossy]

This is what I'm testing for Vintage Champs @ Gencon this year.

    1 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Island Fish Jasconius
    1 Island Sanctuary
    1 Island of WakWak
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Gorilla Shaman

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Fabricate
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Gush
    1 Strategic Planning
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Rebuild
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Mana Drain
    1 Counterspell
    1 Commandeer
    1 Disrupting Shoal
    1 Mystic Remora
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Izzet Signet

[Implacable]

I challenge you to run that to an even record.  Do that, and you'll have made your point pretty damn well. 

[clayparson]

Restricting TFK is probably the right move, but it still irks me.  I never thought it was powerful enough to warrant restriction in Vintage.
Also, 4 crop rotation makes me just a wee-bit nervous, there are so many ways to conceivably break that card.  However, I cannot see any of the possible 4 Rotation.dec variants destroying vintage as we know it.

Thank god Mana Drain is still around, for that we can be thankful.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I am most people in my play group are very happy with these changes. 

>.>

Looking forward to playing nothing but UBW Key/Vault combo decks for the next few months. Who cares about Strip lock when my win condition costs 2 mana lol?

[InfectedMushroom]

I understand Thirst being restricted and I'm happy to see some cards come off the list. At least we have a few months to see what develops. I have been running a deck with Int-AK for some time and the more practice I get with it, I love it. It's performed pretty well for me and doesn't use TFK.

Lets see where this metagame takes us, and things can always get restricted or unrestricted next time around (as long as it's not Drain!).

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone thought about a Turn-One Tendrils List that abuses Crop Rotation-->Tolarian Academy? Not sure exactly if this would work too well as I haven't tested it, but it seems that it would work in a list that looks something like this:

Turn-One-Tendrils

Mana (3):
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Mana Accel (25):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Crop Rotation
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Summoner’s Pact
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

Draw (22):
4 Street Wraith
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Manamorphose
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Timetwister

Combo (5):
4 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection/Bounce (5):
4 Repeal
1 Pact Of Negation

Side-Board
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pact Of Negation
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

[oneofchaos]

This is what I'm testing for Vintage Champs @ Gencon this year.

    1 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Island Fish Jasconius
    1 Island Sanctuary
    1 Island of WakWak
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Gorilla Shaman

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Fabricate
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Gush
    1 Strategic Planning
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Rebuild
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Mana Drain
    1 Counterspell
    1 Commandeer
    1 Disrupting Shoal
    1 Mystic Remora
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Izzet Signet

I question the absence of mulldrifter.

[vassago]

This is what I'm testing for Vintage Champs @ Gencon this year.

    1 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Island Fish Jasconius
    1 Island Sanctuary
    1 Island of WakWak
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Gorilla Shaman

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Fabricate
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Gush
    1 Strategic Planning
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Rebuild
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Mana Drain
    1 Counterspell
    1 Commandeer
    1 Disrupting Shoal
    1 Mystic Remora
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Izzet Signet

I question the absence of mulldrifter.

Yeah Mike, Ze Good Fish is obviously better than counsel of soratami. Geeez   

[oneofchaos]

Hey at least Mike's deck is consistently inconsistent.  Currently there are so many more permutations of possible starting hands that it drives most type 2 players insane.

[neocronx]

This is what I'm testing for Vintage Champs @ Gencon this year.

    1 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Island Fish Jasconius
    1 Island Sanctuary
    1 Island of WakWak
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Underground River
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Gorilla Shaman

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Fabricate
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Gush
    1 Strategic Planning
    1 Counsel of the Soratami
    1 Rebuild
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Force of Will
    1 Mana Drain
    1 Counterspell
    1 Commandeer
    1 Disrupting Shoal
    1 Mystic Remora
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Izzet Signet

I question the absence of mulldrifter.

Yeah def mulldrifter over counsel, and needs more Misdirection and Trinket Mage imo

Thank you wizards for leaving drain alone.

[vassago]

Hey at least Mike's deck is consistently inconsistent.  Currently there are so many more permutations of possible starting hands that it drives most type 2 players insane.

I was just trying to add some humor.  I wasn't actually trying to point out improvements. 

[oneofchaos]

Hey at least Mike's deck is consistently inconsistent.  Currently there are so many more permutations of possible starting hands that it drives most type 2 players insane.

I was just trying to add some humor.  I wasn't actually trying to point out improvements. 

As was I.  Humorous he picked counsel over mulldrifter at least. 

[urweak]

So is Thirst for Knowledge, Ponder 2009?

Everything else seems ok, but you never know what will happen.

[Stormanimagus]

Has anyone thought about a Turn-One Tendrils List that abuses Crop Rotation-->Tolarian Academy? Not sure exactly if this would work too well as I haven't tested it, but it seems that it would work in a list that looks something like this:

Turn-One-Tendrils

Mana (3):
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Mana Accel (25):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Crop Rotation
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Summoner’s Pact
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

Draw (22):
4 Street Wraith
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Manamorphose
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Timetwister

Combo (5):
4 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Protection/Bounce (5):
4 Repeal
1 Pact Of Negation

Side-Board
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pact Of Negation
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

No Love for my list? Ideas?

[EnialisLiadon]

You could start a thread devoted to it, rather than attempt a hi-jacking.

Anyways, the initial surprise of TfK's restriction really irked me.  But now, I've come around...despite consistently casting the lovable instant during my opponent's endstep since I started playing vintage competitively.  From slaver to drain tendrils to tezzeret, I've developed quite a fondness for it.  But the aforementiond points ring true:  the card has been the backbone of top-tier decks since it came out, and hopefully its restriction will knock drains down by a peg or two so that more decks can compete.

I also thank wizards for not touching drains.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

OMG I'M FREAKING OUT LIKE LAST YEAR WHEN EVERYTHING TURNED OUT FINE!!!

I'm excited for the new meta, but disappointed I have 3 extra Foil TfK. Good luck deckbuilding guys, I'm busy for a few weeks and look forward to the new ideas. Grim Monolith+Power Artifact is BROKEN!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

OMG I'M FREAKING OUT LIKE LAST YEAR WHEN EVERYTHING TURNED OUT FINE!!!

I'm excited for the new meta, but disappointed I have 3 extra Foil TfK. Good luck deckbuilding guys, I'm busy for a few weeks and look forward to the new ideas. Grim Monolith+Power Artifact is BROKEN!

fine, or everything was ruined by time vault.
i'm looking forward to the 1x tfk. was hoping for time vault errata though.