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Author Topic: [Worldgorger Dragon] A return to the past ?  (Read 7993 times)
fury
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« on: June 19, 2009, 11:24:30 am »

Hello,

Given the new B&R List, I ask the community if the Dragon archetype will change a lot, because of the evolution of the metagame, and because of the new unrestrictions of Entomb, Crop Rotation and Enlightened Tutor.

These unrestrictions seems to give power to the archetype, in UB version or in 5C version, with the possibility to win very quickly, to fetch bazaar or a reanimation spell very easily.

What do you think of this ? Discuss.
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fury
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 05:38:03 pm »

Ask yourself why Dragon would ever be able to compete with the combo decks we have today, when it wasn't even the best deck back in 2002 or whenever the hell it was actually good. When you think about that, feel free to close the thread as you'll have your answer.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 03:04:50 am »

Ask yourself why Dragon would ever be able to compete with the combo decks we have today, when it wasn't even the best deck back in 2002 or whenever the hell it was actually good. When you think about that, feel free to close the thread as you'll have your answer.

You've pwned me with WGDX (or something) by racing my combo deck (Salvagers, I believe).

Dragon has something to gain from these unrestrictions, and worthy of looking into/testing/optimizing.

Dragon (sans graveyard hate like leyline, tormod's crypt) can go of turn 1 or 2 fairly easily (my IRL experiences were non-Bazaar Dark Rit/Burried Alive control shells (force/Intuition, etc)).

Other combo decks have to get hella lucky to get turn 1 or 2 kills.

But OBVIOUSLY, Dragon dies to grave hate unanswered, and that's a problem when it comes up, whereas Time Vault doesn't care about grave.

Dragon can compete next month, I believe.  At the very least, it will deal with the same hate that Stax and Ichorid will inevitably have to deal with.  But that wont make current dragon worse than those two.




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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 05:11:55 am »

Yeah, Dragon got better thanks to these unrestrictions.  I'm not sure it will be able to compete at the highest levels, but it is a legit choice now.  And it's a bit more on the budget side (depending on the build of course) than the average deck, so that's a plus in my book.

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 05:18:29 am »

Honestly, if i where to play dragon right now, i'd play Zero entombs...I've played bazaar dragon before, and i cut the entomb after it did just about nothing every time i drew it...Now for speed dragon it might be an option...But that's like playing belcher, which i'd never do.
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 06:23:58 am »

Why can't you build something with Bazaar and Entomb?  I don't see the problem there.  Entomb for stupid quick wins or just finding the piece you need, and Bazaar if you actually have to do some digging for bounce or somethign (or just get stuck in a longer game).  In fact, Entomb could make that engine stronger too (Like if you played Squee, you basically have 8 of them now).  I mean, I still expect the deck to be garbage, but I don't think Entomb dragon and Bazaar dragon are exclusive, I would think the best list will include elements of both decks.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 10:31:32 am »

You could play with 4 of both, but there's just still a good chance that entomb will be dead quite often, and thus i wouldn't play with it. As a singleton it did very little for me, and as a 4 of i doubt it would do more.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 01:55:39 am »

What are the prospects for a "speed" version using something besides bazaars in order to maximize the t1/2 win%?

off the top of my head:
4 entomb
4 dark ritual
4 animate dead
4 Necromancy
4 whispers of the muse

1(2?) WGD
1 Oona
1 TFK
1 Frantic Search

1 island
4 U sea
8 Fetches
+ various restricted cards (tutors,recall etc.)
+ either a FOW or Duress package

This way instead of having to have Bizarre + Mox jet to win on t1, you just need Wispers of the muse + any land.
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 06:57:50 am »

you just need Wispers of the muse + any land.

Umm, no.

You would need U. Sea + Dark Ritual + Entomb + Animate Dead + Whispers.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 09:59:34 am »

you just need Wispers of the muse + any land.

Umm, no.

You would need U. Sea + Dark Ritual + Entomb + Animate Dead + Whispers.

Considering that his listed manabase is 1 island, 4 Sea, and 8 fetches, I think that means basically any land (except the island).
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 10:17:22 am »

Considering that his listed manabase is 1 island, 4 Sea, and 8 fetches, I think that means basically any land (except the island).

I'm aware of that.  The main point I was making is that you still need Ritual + Entomb + Animate Dead, rather than just the land and Whispers.
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 11:09:19 am »

I have to say that the best dragon lists are probably ones that use a total of 6 or 7 dragons/entombs and a total of 6-7 animates, while still running Bazaar.  One issue with trying to make dragon faster has always been that you only have 4 dragons.  Now you can run 6 or 7 upping your odds of drawing it early.  Yet I think you still want to be careful about preserving the strengths of the deck: it's draw power, strong/light mana base and inevitibality, all of which would be compromised by cutting bazaar. 
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 10:15:24 pm »

Considering that his listed manabase is 1 island, 4 Sea, and 8 fetches, I think that means basically any land (except the island).

I'm aware of that.  The main point I was making is that you still need Ritual + Entomb + Animate Dead, rather than just the land and Whispers.

Obviously I meant in addition to entomb/animate, but how is this different from the bazaar version?  Certainly You have an easier time hitting Any land + whispers then you do hitting Bazaar + mox jet, even if you include the extra 2 cards you see from bazaar.  As usual if you don't have whispers you can simply draw the game or if you want you can add a second reanimator target (hellkite overlord maybe? not sure what else is out there for reanimator targets) and try and win like that if you think they wont be able to stop it(Im sure most creature decks are drawing close to dead against a turn 1 hellkite overlord)
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2009, 10:47:00 am »

Curiously, while I think Entomb might have a place (i'm not sure where), I think the restriction of Thirst might be the strongest gain for WGDX, as it is the only combo/control deck that had always preferred Intuition over Thirst (or whatever).  So it seems to have the best intact draw engine aside from Remora/Meditate.
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 03:55:04 am »


A working list to launch again the discussion about the archetype. Place in the current metagame ? Alternative strategies ?

The list :

Quote
// FORMAT : Vintage
        1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tropical Island
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        3  Underground Sea
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        1  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Time Walk
        4  Deep Analysis
        4  Duress
SB:  1  Eternal Witness
SB:  1  Time Vault
SB:  1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB:  1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB:  1  Voltaic Key
SB:  1  Tinker
SB:  1  Repeal
SB:  2  Enlightened Tutor
SB:  3  Carpet of Flowers
SB:  3  Chain of Vapor


The list is a classic WGDX one, with a KeyVault and a Tinker alternate strategy. The main interest of this is the possibility to keep in the main deck both keyvaulkt and Dragon combo, or both Tinker solution and Dragon combo.
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fury
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 12:06:03 pm »

I suspect that the gains from the cards listed in the OP are not enough to balance the collateral damage from Dredge/Oath/MUD hate. When someone sides in about 8 pcs against you, that sucks. When they side in those same 8 PLUS 4xNature's Claim, your odds go down the crapper in a hurry.

Also bear in mind that every attempt to go off is an all in. Repeal, Claim, Chain of Vapor, Stifle... All these things are essentially a game loss if resolved against you. Also consider that there are other combos in the format which are equally powerful, equally resilient, and lacking such a critical weakness.

I think the above make Dragon an inferior choice. There are tons of decks in Vintage which are broken as hell, and yet remain uncompetitive. I think Dragon just happens to be one of them.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 02:29:01 pm »

I sadly have to agree. Wordgorger Dragon combo is in a bad way right now. Sideboards (and some maindecks) in todays meta, coincidentally, are just loaded with Dragon hate. The list of commonly used maindeck and sideboard cards that foil the Wordgorger Dragon combo have almost never been higher.

Talking Bazaar based decks, Ichorid arguably has a better game one against the field than Dragon. And - as of yet, nobody has come up with a solid enough transitional Dragon sideboard that dodges the mass amount of hate people can bring in to stop the main Dragon combo to make games 2 or 3 good enough.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 09:26:22 am by swawagon » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 08:16:57 pm »

I've been playing WGDX since '04 when Diceman updated it with Read the Ruins and such. Unfortunately I have to agree, the way WGDX looks right now it really isn't the best choice out there by far. If you want to still win with Dragon then I would suggest something like the list below. It needs to be tested but I think it has a lot of potential:
 
Reanimator X
 
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
 
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind  
 
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
4 Entomb
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
 
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
1 Swamp
 
Potential SB:
4 Oath of Druids
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Coffin Purge
1 Necromancy
1 Duress
1 Inkwell Leviathan
 
The list is a fusion of both WGDX and Legacy Reanimator. Entomb is obv the top engine and works very well with the Dragon Animate auras. I'll get back to you after some testing, but in the mean time, lmk what you guys think!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 07:37:01 pm by Noah » Logged
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