[deck] Crucible/Fastbond/Orb

[klavo]

I feel like this is a deck idea that has been beaten into some sort of horrible coma, and if I'm the one to kill it, so be it, but I have to make a viable crucible deck.  And I also have to make it unpowered.  X_X  So, here's what we have now:

Land
2x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Glimmervoid
4x City of Brass
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland
1x Glacial Chasm

Artifacts
2x Mox Diamond
2x Zuran Orb
1x Sol Ring
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Horn of Greed

Instants
3x Dark Ritual
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Crop Rotation
1x Impulse
1x Brainstorm
4x Remand
1x Echoing Truth

Sorceries
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Regrowth
1x Tinker
1x Wheel of Fortune

Enchantments
4x Exploration
1x Fastbond

The idea is the fairly obvious Crucible/Fastbond/Zuran Orb with Barbarian Ring or Cephalid Coliseum for the kill.  Duress/Thoughtseize/Remand for control (and card advantage), with a Horn of Greed bringing in the serious cards.  It's just proven to be too inconsistent so far--and a bit too slow as well.  An older version fetched out duals, but I'm not sure that's stable enough for a four colored (without Wheel of Fortune really three-colored) deck, esp since I'm probably going to run white in the sideboard.  With the unrestricting of Crop Rotation though, I could be persuaded to change the manabase back, making the land look something like:

-2 Undiscovered Paradise
-4 Glimmervoid
-4 City of Brass

+2 Bayou(/Overgrown Tomb if I run out of money)
+2 Underground Sea(/Watery Grave)
+2 Tropical Island(/Breeding Pool)
+4 Polluted Delta

The thinning would really help the redundancy, I think. 

I'm also not sold on Impulse and the only having one wasteland...Remand has been working nicely so far, but I'm interested to hear what you think.  I might be overdoing the control, here...

Echoing Truth keeps Horn of Greed from killing me, and Regrowth is my only real way to recover from Fastbond being killed--the deck used to run Yawgmoth's Will.

Suggestions?  Ideas?  Thanks, it's all greatly appreciated.

[Clint_NZ]

I have something very similar to this.
One thing I hate is running into Null Rod as it shuts your Orb out.

I run Reap the Rewards as an additional life gain, with all the 5c lands its not hard to get W.

Also Intuition is a huge bonus in this deck.

[jaeppel]

I think running a three color fetch base is the best for you.  Cut the wheel, it does nothing more than make this a three color deck.  If you really want a draw7 run memory jar, but i dont think even that is needed.

Horn of greed is too slow, by really alot.  Bazaar is probably the most optimal card for that slot, but thats also 1000 for four.... 

If you really must stay budget, i would up the diamonds to four, add lotus petal, mana crypt, maybe vault. 

remand isnt really good here either.  Its best in remora decks where it resets the age counters easy.  the problem is that it costs  {11} to bounce a colossus, and thats just never going to happen.  replace with some mix of chain of vapor/hurkyl/rebuild.

Also, i would never run glimmervoid in vintage.  gemstone mine is better as usually it stays around just long enough, and it doesnt just die to a hurkyl.  also with 4 crucible, you can just replay it.

(enlightened tutor for fastbond) >>> exploration

[klavo]

Changed the deck to a fetch-dual base, and added some card advantage at the expense of some of the control.  The deck is still not able to keep up with itself though, and often I'm playing my hand first turn, leaving me empty-handed. 

What would you advise for replacing horn of greed?  Right now it's a pretty reliable draw engine, although slower than I'd like.

Also, I'm interested to see what you would recommend replacing for Vault/Crypt/etc, as I can't go too low on lands and render the diamonds useless... 

A lot of control was cut, and the deck is running hotter, so I have to make sure I can watch my back here.  Any suggestions?

Land
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Strip Mine
1x Wasteland
1x Glacial Chasm

Artifacts
2x Zuran Orb
4x Mox Diamond
1x Sol Ring
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Horn of Greed

Creatures
1x Jace Beleren

Sorceries
4x Thoughtseize
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Regrowth
1x Tinker

Instants
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Dark Ritual
3x Crop Rotation
1x Brainstorm
4x Accumulated Knowledge
1x Echoing Truth
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Intuition

Enchantments
1x Fastbond

[Ulthrion]

Your deck seems to be able to unload it's hand pretty quickly, plays no creatures and can safely sac all lands in a zuran orb. Balance seems like the perfect fit for this deck, and I would definately make room for it. Maybe something like Orim's Chant can help you in the disruption suite by allowing you to force through spells, but I wouldn't know what to cut for it. I have no experience with Jace, and the rituals seem a little out of place, so maybe those could be cut. Although the rituals presumably help you with your early crucible, you still have to get both in hand to make any effect.

You could also cut 1 enlightened tutor for an argivian find and then add an Academy Ruins, so you can intuition for Ruins, Crucible, Argivian, and then argivian up your crucible at instant speed if they give you that.

Also, Since you're playing/replaying lots of lands anyway, Vinelasher Kudzu might be a nice alternative kill condition, although it kind of goes against the balance idea (although you can drop it after balance and then replay the lands from your graveyard).

I would definately run Gemstone Mine as a land. It is solid in color generation, and crucible and crop rotation both lower it's downside considerably. It is also quite budget.

[meadbert]

I would suggest cutting black and your artifact mana for Null Rod and Ancient Tombs.  Also, Oath of Druids is a solid addition to consider as long as you are running so many Enlightened Tutors and Crop Rotation.  Argivian Find is also really good for getting back countered Null Rod / Fastbond / Crucible / Oath.

If you do keep black you may want to add Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam to perpetuate a Strip lock and empty a hand.  Loam, Crime, Strip can all be grabbed with one Intuition.

Here is a sample list that I have lying around.  Obviously you will want to drop the Black Lotus.  I would suggest another Ancient Tomb.  You might also want to drop Bazaars since those are costly:
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Nomad Stadium
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod
4 Squee,Goblin Nabob
1 Time Walk
4 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Seal Of Primordium
1 Fastbond
3 Life From The Loam
1 Regrowth
3 Crop Rotation
4 Argivian Find
3 Enlightened Tutor
sideboard
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Tabernacle At Pendral Vale
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Words Of Wilding
1 Balance
3 Ray Of Revelation


If the Bazaars are a no go due to price, then here is another list:
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Cephalid Colliseum
3 Nomad Stadium
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Bazaar Of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod
1 Fastbond
4 Life From The Loam
1 Regrowth
4 Crop Rotation
3 Seal Of Cleansing
4 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
sideboard
1 Tabernacle At Pendral Vale
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sphere Of Resistance
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
1 Words Of Wilding
1 Balance
2 Ray Of Revelation

This time you only have 1 Bazaar and again a Lotus which you will need to drop.  The token Bazaar is actually pretty important.  After adjusting for fewer Mox Diamonds and Intuitions this list looks like it may be in your price range even with the token Bazaar.
For either of these decks you can add Oath of Druids. 

[klavo]

Not too sure about running the Rod yet, I appreciate the speed of the Diamonds/Ring too much right now... 

And Loam?  Someone help me here.  In a deck that can get a Crucible out pretty Quickly, why is the Loam so essential?

Right now, the deck looks like this:

4x Flooded Strand
1x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Tundra
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Strip Mine
2x Wasteland
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Horizon Canopy

2x Zuran Orb
4x Mox Diamond
1x Sol Ring
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge

3x Balance
1x Tinker

4x Argivian Find
1x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Intuition

4x Seal of Cleansing
1x Fastbond

It runs a bit more creature control--too much? 
Suggestions?  My land base is a bit different...

[Ulthrion]

And Loam?  Someone help me here.  In a deck that can get a Crucible out pretty Quickly, why is the Loam so essential?

Loam is more difficult to stop with counters as it keeps comming back. In addition, you dig three deep every turn in search of more lands or cards to retrieve from your grave with argivian find/regrowth. So it is a combination of resilience and circumstancial ability to dig faster.

[klavo]

Ok, here's what I've come up with.
What I like about this, very especially, is the Oath.  The alternate (and very threatening) secondary kill condition provides a great distraction while I get out the combo.
Things I need help with:
Should I put in a final wasteland?  And if so, what should be axed?
A fourth Horizon Canopy?
More orbs?
I have almost no control now, save the three balances and the four seals, should I make room for something like dueling grounds?

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Savannah
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Strip Mine
3x Wasteland
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
3x Horizon Canopy

2x Zuran Orb
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds

1x Darksteel Colossus

4x Life from the Loam
3x Balance

4x Argivian Find
1x Regrowth
4x Crop Rotation
4x Enlightened Tutor

4x Oath of Druids
4x Seal of Cleansing
1x Fastbond

Sideboard
2x Dueling Grounds
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Academy Rector
3x Ivory Mask
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Sterling Grove

[klavo]

maybe
-1 mox
+1 sol ring

For the sake of the cheap.

[Lurker101]

Balance is restricted so you'll have to cut back on 2 of those.

[klavo]

Yea saw that:
-2 Balance
+2 Swords

for now...

[klavo]

+1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
+1 Forbidden Orchard

-1 Ancient Tomb
-1 Life from the Loam

[Lurker101]

Also I think Propaganda is a better choice than Dueling Grounds. It has the same cmc and is blue but it can shut down aggro decks pretty fast (especially Ichorid). The problem with dueling grounds is that some decks only need to attack with one creature per turn (Oath, Tinker into inkwell/DSC, etc.). Also you may want to play Progenitus over Akroma. It just is more resilient to hate (Akroma can be bounced or STP'd) and puts the opponent on a faster clock.

[klavo]

+1Progenitus
-1 Akroma

How well do you think Horizon Canopy works here?  I'm considering replacing them for 3 Forbidden Orchard, making Propaganda a little more feesable in the sideboard.

And I'm not sold on the swords, any ideas?

Finally, how does everyone feel about Krosan Reclamation, as Gaea's Blessing kind of screws everything up, and I feel I need something to protect against a bad oath discarding all of my recursion?  Oh, and also: Riftstone Portal?  How do we feel?  This stuff might all be unnecessary, and a bit slow, what do you think?

[klavo]

A few more minor changes.  Bazaar actually hasn't worked as well as I would want it to, and often ends up costing me turns.  So it's gone for now.  Still toying with the idea of null rod...

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Savannah
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Forbidden Orchard
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy

2x Zuran Orb
3x Mox Diamond
1x Sol Ring
4x Crucible of Worlds

1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4x Life from the Loam
1x Balance

4x Argivian Find
1x Regrowth
4x Crop Rotation
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x Oath of Druids
4x Seal of Cleansing
1x Fastbond

Sideboard
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spirit of the Night
1x Rorix Bladewing
1x Progenitus
2x Cursed Totem
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Krosan Reclamation

[Implacable]

A few more minor changes.  Bazaar actually hasn't worked as well as I would want it to, and often ends up costing me turns.  So it's gone for now.  Still toying with the idea of null rod...

How does this list beat any kind of combo deck?

[klavo]

Are you suggesting null rods would help? If not, what then?

I kind of count on getting them striplocked, which between crucible and loam is quite easy. My only hesitation to add rods comes from the fact that it cancels out my orb, so I would have to include overgrown estate or something insted.

[klavo]

Deck with rods, and more combo protection.  Thoughts?

4x Wooded Foothills
3x Savannah
1x Bayou
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Forbidden Orchard
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy

4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Null Rod

1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath

4x Life from the Loam
1x Regrowth

4x Argivian Find
4x Crop Rotation
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Swords to Plowshares

2x Overgrown Estate
4x Oath of Druids
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Fastbond

Sideboard
2x Dueling Grounds
1x Spirit of the Night
1x Progenitus
2x Seal of Cleansing
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Extirpate

[klavo]

-1 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Swords

This version needs a bit more creature control

[unitedbygreed]

i think you all like this card with this combo :    Bitter Ordeal
Card type: Sorcery

Casting cost: 2

Card text: Search target player's library for a card and remove that card from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Gravestorm (When you play this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Oracle text: Search target player's library for a card and exile it. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Gravestorm (When you cast this spell, copy it for each permanent put into a graveyard this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)

Artist: Daarken

Rarity: Rare