Red Deck Wins

[Natxete]

Hi to everyone:

3 or 4 months ago, Freddy Hilty and James Lee made good results with a Red Deck wins deck.

This is the list:

creature [21]

3 Goblin Cadets

2 Gorilla Shaman

4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Jackal Pup

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Simian Spirit Guide

instant [12]

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Price of Progress

2 Pyroblast

2 Red Elemental Blast

artifact [8]

3 Chalice of the Void

1 Mox Ruby

4 Null Rod

land [19]

4 Bloodstained Mire

6 Mountain

1 Strip Mine

4 Wasteland

4 Wooded Foothills

60 cards

Sideboard:

4 Smash to Smithereens

4 Volcanic Fallout

3 Pyrostatic Pillar

4 Tormod's Crypt

15 cards

Chalice for 1 is a very big problem. I think  Hearth Kami or Smash to Smithereens are needed in the maindeck. Price of progress is awesome, but new decks plays with more basic lands against strip effects and stifles.This makes it less effective. 

I think as good changes:

Maindeck
-1 Null rod
-1 mogg fanatic
-4 price of progress
+2 Hearth Kami
+2 Smash to Smithereens
+2 Pyrostatic pillar

Sideboard:
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 pulverice
1 Pyrostatic pillar
2 tormods crypt
2 Relic of progenitus
2 umezawas jitte
2 Red elemental blast
3 Price of progress
1 ¿?¿?¿?

We haven´t got a response to inket leviantan but can fight against it with speed and REBs.
An interesting card is Bexing shuster, but... its very hungry of mana.

What do you think about the deck in the current meta?
I think it could fight well against UR and UW Fish, but the firt game against BUG is hardest.
Remora and tezzenet seems to be good pairings, and we have a good response against Stax.
In my meta almost blue iks growing. Thats the reason of pyrostatic pillar main deck.
Elves pairing isn´t seems so dificult.
Tendrils combo and Ichorid will be our worse math ups I think.

I´ve got a slot in my sideboard. What is the better card to include?
+1 Relic/tormods/Faerie macabre?
+1 Pyrostatic pillar?
+1 Mogg fanatic?
+1 Crash/Ingot chewer/Smash to Smithereens
+1 REB?
An other?

Thanks and greatings

[Harlequin]

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Ruby
4 Simian Spirit Guide
~ Decent Mana Base
-- 20 permanent mana a bit heavy of fetches but someone's got to feed Lavamancer.  I'm not sure why lotus isn't included but you could cut a fetch or a Simian for Lotus

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Jackal Pup
3 Goblin Cadets
- A good start, Shaman good against the field, Lavamancer I think is probably better than he was a while ago with people looking to Dark Confidant to replace Thirst.  Mogg Fanatic is decent, but he doesn't stop a 2/2 under the new combat rules.  However Cofindant, Welder, and Aven Mindcensor are probably all going to see more play.

Pup and Cadets are just not vintage worthy.  I would say cut them for something else.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Null Rod
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void

Bolt - Solid, Price of Progress - Solid, Null Rod - Solid, REB/Pyro - Solid.  Chalice?  Overkill on mox hate.  You already have Gorilla Shaman AND Null Rod.  You can't set this at 1, 2 is risky and expensive, and 3 costs way too much mana.

=============================================

Ok, there is really no reason to not run Wheel of Fortune.  Its a good way to restock after you've burned your hand.

You have correctly Identified the need to run a slightly more robust Artifact Hate suit.  And I like Hearth Kami.  I also think that running a 3-4 mox monkies is a good idea.

-3 Chalice
-3 Goblin Cadet
+4 Hearth Kami
+1 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Wheel of Fortune


Magus of the Moon is one of the strongest cards that a Mono Red deck can run.  What many don't realize is that Magus of the Moon does not change the -SuperType- of a card.  So lands that are non-basic ~stay~ non-basics.  So Running Magus and Price of Progress in the same deck is fine.  In some cases its actually better because Magus prevents Wastelands and Fetches from being removed to dodge Price of Progress.  So if your opponent has 2 Fetches and a wasteland that are All turned into mountains - they still take 6 from price of progress.

-4 Jackle Pup
+4 Magus of the Moon

The problem now is that your mana base needs to be tweeked to accomidate both the higher CC of Magus AND the fact that your still want to use Price for Progress as your finisher.  So I would suggest the following:
-5 Strip/Wasteland
-2 Fetches
+4 Ancient Tomb
+3 Mountain (or Lotus)

Ancient Tomb is nice because it gives you the abilitiy to power down a turn 1 Null Rod OR with Simian Spirit Guide, a turn 1 Magus of the Moon.  Pairing back the fetches will make sure you don't end up getting lands stuck under Magus that make Price unplayable.

Now we can think about Lava Dart.  Lava Dart is another way to get those non-basic mountains out from under Magus.  Asside from that Lava Dart is going to become a great substitute card for Mog Fanatic under the new rules.  It can double up on Welder, Confidant, and other X/1 cards - while still retain its ability to ping players for final points and kill X/2's in a pinch.  Most likely 3 darts will be enough to handle whatever comes your way. 

Finally, we can look back on the deck and see we've removed a good amount of 2/1 meat.  The deck could definately use another finisher card.  I'm a big fan of 'burn' style decks running either Shrapnel Blast or Firey Conclusion.  These cards can be very powerful and unexpected.  You don't really have the artifact count to make good on Shrapnel, but you do run some 'bulk' creatures.  Extra Lavamancers, extra gorrilla shamans, even a 2nd Magus now all become game-ending flings. 
You can also run something a little more meta-gamey: Fireblast is a catch all that works well with the Magus/PoP combo but can sometimes compete with Lava Dart.  Mog Salvage is a GREAT card if you face alot of Tezz or other blue-Timevault decks.  Pulverize can be used as an answer to Inkwell.  Lastly Fork can be a decent card as well.  Fork be used as a counter-counterspell, as well as something to double-Price someone to death.  I don't think you really have enough good instants and sorcies to use fork though.

-1 Lavamancer
-4 Mog Fanatic
+3 Lava Dart
+2 Firey Conclusion / Fireblast / Mog Salvage / Pulverize

[Duncan]

Fiery Conclusion hits only creatures, which makes it unplayable I think.

Mogg Salvage might be too narrow to run. I think Smash to Smithereens might be better because it cycles on moxen and does damage too.

[Harlequin]

Is there a shrapnel blast for creatures?  I thought there was.... maybe I'm just a fool. 

Fireblast is probably the best bet then.  Smash is decent, but I think the deck is pretty solidly packed with artifact hate.  I only suggested Salvage because you don't have to keep mana open to play it, and its easier to play early and back up with REB.  You shouldn't need too much help beating non-blue, non-timevault decks... with that in mind, having good cards against tezz is never really overkill.

[Troy_Costisick]

Is there a shrapnel blast for creatures?  I thought there was.... maybe I'm just a fool. 

Goblin Grenade.

[Ufactor]

LOL.. James Lee is awesome.  I ridden with him up to a few Waterbury's - always with the same deck.  Goblins with REB ...goblins with Crypt ...goblins with Pithing Needle ...Goblins with Blood Moon.  He always makes somewhere between 17th-33rd place, in events that are attended by 150-250 people.  I've never seen him go 0-2-drop, even with what appears to be scrub aggro.

This time he played Deadguy Red with Chalice and Null Rod, and made the finals.  It is so hard to tell if this deck is idiocy or genius.

James Lee is also the nicest guy I've ever met playing magic.seriously.

Is there a shrapnel blast for creatures?  I thought there was.... maybe I'm just a fool.

..and Reckless Abandon

[silvernail]

you may want to consider spark elemental and hellspark elemental. I'm building an x/1 haste red deck that uses haste creatures + skullclamp to reload on haste guys and burn. Even without clamps, the spakys might be good to use.

[Natxete]

Ok, there is really no reason to not run Wheel of Fortune.  Its a good way to restock after you've burned your hand.

You have correctly Identified the need to run a slightly more robust Artifact Hate suit.  And I like Hearth Kami.  I also think that running a 3-4 mox monkies is a good idea.

-3 Chalice
-3 Goblin Cadet
+4 Hearth Kami
+1 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Wheel of Fortune


Magus of the Moon is one of the strongest cards that a Mono Red deck can run.  What many don't realize is that Magus of the Moon does not change the -SuperType- of a card.  So lands that are non-basic ~stay~ non-basics.  So Running Magus and Price of Progress in the same deck is fine.  In some cases its actually better because Magus prevents Wastelands and Fetches from being removed to dodge Price of Progress.  So if your opponent has 2 Fetches and a wasteland that are All turned into mountains - they still take 6 from price of progress.

-4 Jackle Pup
+4 Magus of the Moon

The problem now is that your mana base needs to be tweeked to accomidate both the higher CC of Magus AND the fact that your still want to use Price for Progress as your finisher.  So I would suggest the following:
-5 Strip/Wasteland
-2 Fetches
+4 Ancient Tomb
+3 Mountain (or Lotus)

Ancient Tomb is nice because it gives you the abilitiy to power down a turn 1 Null Rod OR with Simian Spirit Guide, a turn 1 Magus of the Moon.  Pairing back the fetches will make sure you don't end up getting lands stuck under Magus that make Price unplayable.

Now we can think about Lava Dart.  Lava Dart is another way to get those non-basic mountains out from under Magus.  Asside from that Lava Dart is going to become a great substitute card for Mog Fanatic under the new rules.  It can double up on Welder, Confidant, and other X/1 cards - while still retain its ability to ping players for final points and kill X/2's in a pinch.  Most likely 3 darts will be enough to handle whatever comes your way.

Finally, we can look back on the deck and see we've removed a good amount of 2/1 meat.  The deck could definately use another finisher card.  I'm a big fan of 'burn' style decks running either Shrapnel Blast or Firey Conclusion.  These cards can be very powerful and unexpected.  You don't really have the artifact count to make good on Shrapnel, but you do run some 'bulk' creatures.  Extra Lavamancers, extra gorrilla shamans, even a 2nd Magus now all become game-ending flings.
You can also run something a little more meta-gamey: Fireblast is a catch all that works well with the Magus/PoP combo but can sometimes compete with Lava Dart.  Mog Salvage is a GREAT card if you face alot of Tezz or other blue-Timevault decks.  Pulverize can be used as an answer to Inkwell.  Lastly Fork can be a decent card as well.  Fork be used as a counter-counterspell, as well as something to double-Price someone to death.  I don't think you really have enough good instants and sorcies to use fork though.

-1 Lavamancer
-4 Mog Fanatic
+3 Lava Dart
+2 Firey Conclusion / Fireblast / Mog Salvage / Pulverize

The changes you are proposing are not changes, is another deck. Yes, both are red, but hear ends the similarity.
The deck that you mention is similar to Stax. A low aggro with bombs, but the deck I post is near Fish. An Agro control with small but fast pets.
Shuster, figure of destiny could be part of the deck, but they need a lot of mana, and seems slow. But cards as magus of the moon and whell of fortune are moreover slow.
The game plan of this deck is chalice+REb (if needed) or Mountain+SSG+Null rod or Gorilla shaman, or 2/1+ 2/1 reb, to fight against Tinker and tezzenet. The cc1 2/1 give the speed that other creatures (as sage of epytir, cursecatcher, Spellstutter Sprite or magus of the moon) havent got. We must disrupt out opponent mana base, fighting lands and artifacts, and retarding/dificulting combo, but killing quickly, not giving oportunity to our opponent to search the card he needed.

An earlier pair of 2/1 plus one 1/1 or bolt could kill before inked leviantan attacks for three times.

Null rods, kamis and Smash to Smithereens are so good against vault. Mox Monkey can kill the voltaic key and Lightning bolt can end with tezzenet

Our creatures jump the Remora and usually meditate can´t be played.

Fighting against Stax we´ve got a lot of permanents, a good mana base with simians and basics, and good removal.

Against Fish, lavamancers are awesome, as well as bolts. Fanatic still being good. REbs are a very good counter and swords against ninjas snd others. Against BUG Fish, relics in the sideboard and PoP gives us a good chance.

Against tendrils we need an early chalice or Pyrostatic, but is a hard match up, idem that ichorid, but we have, fanatic, lavamancer to lavamancer or another creature, bolts to our creatures, kami+target... and a good sideboard.

A normal hand will be:
One Null Rod/chalice/Shaman/Wasteland---}Disruption
One fanatic/lavamancer/Shaman/kami---}Agro/Disruption
One fanatic/lavamancer/Pup/kami---}Agro
One Pyrostatic/REB/kami/Smash to Smithereens/Wasteland---}Disruption
Two Mountains/Mountain+Simian/Mountain Wasteland---}Mana
One Bolt/Other---}Depending.

As we can see is usual to have a hand with decent disruption and decent first turns Agro. A good equilibrium in these concepts is the reason of this deck.

I can remember the "TinkerExtended metagame" with Stax, Twidle Desire and other powerfull decks, but, surfing the metagame was RDWs, with cards like tangle wire, pillage, pups, firebolts... it was another time, another format, but the esence is the same: Fast creatures + Fast disruption=Good tempo.
I know Fish disruption is better, thanks to FoW, Daze and Stifle, but well focused, and we are faster, for this reason we need less powerfull disruption,
If I can kill one turn before I need one Fow less.

[xouman]

@Natxete: your list is not as disruptive as Harlequin's. You won't be able to win in less than 5 turns most of the time, and you aren't consistently difficulting your opponent's game. So, most of the time tezz can play combo in time, muy can play big robots, fish can survive with meddlings and jotuns, ichorid and tps will win faster...


Playing magus of the moon on turn 2 IS disruptive, and Price of progress canl be huge enough in some turns; indeed, I would also play a couple of bloon moons.  Chalice is not really needed if you can only play it for 0 having shaman and kami (what about welder or goblin vandal?), and Thorn of amethyst can fit with lots of creatures around and those ancient tombs. Also REBs can be really useful against tinker, repeal and counters. Genju of the spires can be a nice beater, and I was thinking about Hidetsugu second rite now that there is not mana burn anymore.

[Natxete]

4 Heart Kami
3 gorilla shaman
1 wheel of fortune
4 magus of the moon
3 lava dart
2 Fireblast
4 REB
4 Null rod
4 simian Spirit guide
4 Lightning bolt
4 Price of progress
3 grim lavamancer
6 Fetch
4 Ancient tomb
1 mox ruby
1 Black lotus
8 mountains

In the first turn, there are less options to play somethink, and less optios to dont be beated by Ichorid in the second turn. (No fanatic, less lavamancers and less options to creature+bolt)
In the second turn you usually play one card of cc2 or 3 rather than 2 cc1, being more vulnerable to force of will, mana drain or daze.If we play one menace by turn it could be countered turn by turn but  playing two or three menaces by turn we are less afected by counters

Pups and cadets made we can win against a resolved Inket, but magus and lava dart dosnt do.

When you play Wheel of fortune you are tapped, pass the turn could be the end. I Liked in a deck with a lot of CC1 bolts (as chain lighting) because you could play 2/3 and kill your opponent but this is not probable with your list.

Chalice of the void is awesome. Playing first turn you are so protected against turn 2 tinker. You can play chalice for 0 and REB/Creature in the first turn. Playing against Tendrils you can play it for 0 in the second/Third turn because they keep moxes in hand to make storm. If you have a Mox Monkey or kami, and a pair of lavamancer/Fanatic/pups/Kami/Cadet... you can play chalice of 1 against combo. With rods,chalices and monkeys you will be sure to have one in your opening hand. The only problem I see is the proliferation of repeal, but Rebs could protect it because it means tinker can´t be played.

I know Magus of the moon is so good, but tinker only need U to play that could be stracted for lotus, mox ore one basic isnland, because our oponent will be carefully and fetches to it. The key-vault combo is colorless (as well as painter combo) Stax could asume a Magus, and Ichorid plays turn one bazaar and active it, and we dont usually play magus in the first turn them Wasteland makes de same efect.

Your deck is not focused in tempo, is focused in a control near Stax, and that isn´t what I´m searching, but thanks for coments.

[Harlequin]

Yes, its a different deck.  But I think its a deck better suited to A) Leverage skill to win a match, and B) has more tools against the metagame.  My goal was to suggest a stronger deck using cards that you appear to have.

2/1.dec is not going to beat vintage decks today.  Jackle Pup is not a good card.  Even a board of 5 jackle pups Loses to Inkewell.  All they have to do is not attack.  Now whenever you attack with your 2/1, you take 7 damage!  You've entered a very dangerous stalemate with them.  All they have to do now is assemble timewalk or find a way to kill your pups (god forbid they run a maindeck darkblast). 

And forget tinker, it seems like this deck loses to a tarmogoyf.

2/1.dec is behind a crashing wave.  With Thirst gone, people are generally going to replace thier thirst with confidants, or switch to playing welder based decks.  If they arn't doing that then will see that Aven Mindcensor is the hate card of choice for Wx Fish.  The influx of good x/1's into the format will mean more maindeck answers to X/1's.  Lava Dart, Dark Blast, Pyroclasm, Javleneers... 2/1.dec is just going to be standing there with a big sign on its crotch saying "punch at will!"

On the flip side, the deck I suggested embraces this idea.  Running a healthy supply of both dirrect damage AND efficent kill cards.  As well as a way to ensure thier mana is tied up.


Lets do a quick match-up compare between your deck and mine:

Tezz - I think my deck has a clear advantage.  Fireblast and Lavadart can burn down a tezzeret dispite any confidants or trinket mages that have hit play prior to Tezz and dispite how many pyroclasms they run.  Also I have more dirrect hate for the Timevault-Key disruption.  Also - with Magus powered by Ancient tomb and/or SSG the odds of them draining your game ending price of progress is slim.

Stax - Both decks are about even... so long as they don't play turn 1 Chalice @1.  If they do that you are probably sunk as you run no removal for it.  My deck has 4x Kami.  In the late game, your deck has no reliable solution to big threats like crucible.  Where again Kami can shine as a much cheaper answer than shaman.  Also in an early lock situation my deck runs slightly more shaman who really shines.  Both decks are well equipted to handle welder so realistically he should never go unsick against either deck.

Shop Agro - Different size instant speed burn spells are likely more useful than 2/1 red creatures when trying to deal with Sword of fire and Ice.  Heath Kami shines here as well.  Oh and did I mention that Trike can kill FOUR 2/1's even under new rules?

Fish Agro/Tempo Control - If they don't find/run Goyf I think your 2/1's might actually have some sort of advantage here.  If they plop down a goyf, I think 2/1.dec is in serious danger.  My deck not only has more burn spells that are big enough to deal with goyf, but also can prevent them from casting goyf via an early magus.  Most Fish decks don't run basic forests.

Ichorid - Mog fanatic does do alot in this match-up.  And while burning your own shamans with dart is not really favorable, it can be a powerful play.  Magus can be very strong here and you do have an outside chance of playing turn 1 magus.  That will totally poop on thier party.

Oath - 2/1.dec doesn't stand a chance beating Oath.  They have to get a REALLY slow start vrs your God hand to lose.  My deck, while it will generally huddle in the corner and cry ~ at least has a dream against oath.  That dream is to resolve Magus before they resolve Oath.  Like I said, its not a solid plan... but its a plan none the less.  With SSG and Ancient Tomb you do have a hope of playing this guy on turn 1 or 2 - wich in some cases can be fast enough to race an oath to the table.

Remora - Having played plenty of remora in my day.  Either deck should have no issue running remora into the ground.  Yes my deck has more spells.  But I assure you that it has PLENTLY of creatures to beat remora.  On top of that I think the strongest creature in the whole deck against remora is Gorrilla Shaman.  He ensures that remora's are feeding on blue mana and not worthless moxen.  Price for Progress is the hilarious finisher in iether case.  When you play it even if they draw cards off remora the proper response is "Commandeer this!"

Combo - 2/1's ain't doing much against combo.  Chalice as an extra buffer for turn is good... but my deck has Ancient tomb -> Null rod.  which is a great defense against the turn 1.  TPS and ANT typically run a high basic count, so Magus might not be a stellar card.  But on the other hand its a pre-emptive answer to fetchlands and Tolarian (where wasteland is too late to stop that first gamewinning activation).  Again cards like Lava Dart and Fireblast can steal games away from a combo player who Necros or Ad Nauses too greedily... where 2/1 just stand there watching in horror.

So outside of non-green fish, I don't think there are any match ups where 2/1.dec is at a clear advantage.