Thirst replacements for tez: Brief test notes

[zeus-online]

Well since thirst got restricted i've messed around with replacements, so i thought i'd share them and possibly hear about what other people are doing!

I never really liked remora or meditate, so i've been searching for other suitable replacements...The problem with both of those cards are that they are conditional, under the right circumstances they are quite powerfull, but i do not like my engine being dependent on my opponents deck/plays.

So here are the cards i've tested, some more extensively then others:

Skeletal scryings - It seems that without brainstorms the yard simply does not grow fast enough for scrying...1 scrying might work, but in multiples they failed to do much. Maybe with strategic plannings...But i'm pretty sure that scrying is not a serious option.

Dark confidant - These guys just didn't work for me, maybe i've been unlucky (Although i doubt it, since i played enough games with them that luck shouldn't be a factor). I wouldn't rule these guys out though, turn 1 confidant is a solid play that wins games.
The thing is that turn 1 they are very good, but every turn after that they get alot worse, and against fish and stax the Sea you probably fetched out to get him into play is quite likely to get wasted and set you back (And the extra cards might or might not do anything against these decks).

Intuition/Accumulated knowledge - Accumulated knowledge didn't work, but intuition was very nice....So after switching to Intuition/Deep analysis i'd give it thumbs up!
Intuition helps setting Will up - Alot! In "Ye olde days of Tez" i used to just assemble the combo itself quite often, with intuition i often Will the combo back in...Kinda like meandeck gifts The presence of DA also makes cards like fact and thirst better.
- Have not tested the deck with goblin welder, but could potentially be quite usefull as a 1-2 off...Intuition with just 1 artifact in play should be GG quite often (intu after Mox, key, vault)

Impulse/Telling time - Tested both of them, i think telling time is slightly better....It's almost like brainstorm (although obv. much much worse) However, if the purpose is to find FoW ASAP (not uncommon) i'd go with impulse....Both of them where decent, and if i had the space i'd play 4 of one of them.

Untested:
Other draw-creatures
Night's whisper

Another card i've been trying out is remand, that isn't exactly a thirst replacement, more of a "duress replacement"....Remand is a swingy card in type 1, it ranges from Functional time walk to useless. Against shops and fish the time walk effect happens quite often during the first 2-3 turns... They often spend all their mana on a threat and thus they've basically wasted their entire turn if the threat was remanded. Now against rituals the card really goes up and down in quality based on their plays.....I've had games against ANT where they've went ritual, ritual, nauseam or something similar where remand obv. shined....And other games against TPS where they've simply had mana to play the threat 2-3 times.

My theory behind remand was that i just needed something to buy a turn until bigbrother mana drain could deal with the problem.


And lastly i've been trying out Sphinx of steel wind - Very limited testing but seems promising against fish and shops.
Main points:
It's very unlikely that fish or any other aggro-aggro/control deck can race it (Flying, vigilance, lifelink, first strike).
It does not die to Qasali pride-mage (pro: Green)
It cannot be welded (Pro: Red)
It pitches.

The bad things:
It's much easier for control and combo decks to race it (Compared to DSC)
But honestly, tinker for DSC isn't exactly the best play against those decks anyways, it's quite often too slow unless you've already locked them down with counterspells.

The sphinx was not my idea however, i'm not sure who thought of it but i saw Rich shay's decklist with it and thought i'd try it.

That's all i think.

/Zeus

[Sean Ryan]

I ran into many of the same difficulties you described. 

Night Whisper more than any of  the other options I have tried has been holding things together for me - and thats exactly how it functions.  It strings together the rest of the broken plays that give Tezz it's power.  They shined the most agaisnt Drains and Rituals.  However, fetching the sea game 1 agaisnt stax is bad news, so I fit in a basic swamp.  I sided them out with Duress in the increasingly prevalent Stax match up.

I will have to try Intuition/Deep Analysis as well.   I found the AK package was too cumbersome agaisnt everything except other Tezz decks.  Please share your results on Intution inspired builds.  Welders would be sexy!   

[Implacable]

I will have to try Intuition/Deep Analysis as well.   I found the AK package was too cumbersome agaisnt everything except other Tezz decks.  Please share your results on Intution inspired builds.  Welders would be sexy!   

I've worked with Intuition/Welder builds a bit, but only with the AK engine.   Of course, the thing is that as soon as you land a Welder, Intuition's an auto-win, 'cause you don't get a robot; you just get the Key/Vault combo + Will and win on the spot.  But anyways, I will try and give it a shot with Deep Analysis; I really do hate fetching out Sea, and I also don't like playing Swamps, so DA could be a happy middle-ground for a Drain-based build.

[vassago]

I am surprised to not see frantic search being played.  the draw package i have been using lately consists of the following:  4 impulse, 1 tfk, 1 fof, 1 merchant scroll, 1 frantic search, b-storm, ponder, a.recall,  1 skeletal scrying, 1 night's whisper.  1 have also been playing 2 repeals but that doesnt necessarily mean it's a draw spell though. I would have to say I do like how its been playing.  What do you guys think about it?  What do you see wrong with this?

[zeus-online]

My current list is still a playground for test cards....I believe it is:

Mana:
4 Island
2 Snow-covered island
6 Fetch
2 U. Sea
1 LoA
1 Academy
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana crypt
1 Mana vault
- Litterally immune to wasteland.

Counters:
4 FoW
4 Drain
4 Remand

Draw:
3 Intuition
3 Deep analysis
1 Fact
1 Gifts
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 M. Tutor
1 M. Scroll
1 Vamp.
1 Demonic

Win:
1 Will
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx
1 Time vault
1 Key
1 Tezzeret

Other:
1 Time walk
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing truth

I should probably fit Thirst and ponder in there somewhere....But as i said i'm merely testing alot of cards - And usually multiple at a time.

I've mostly tested against Shops and Fish decks...I've found ritual decks to be quite bad right now, so i don't find them very relevant...And testing against ichorid with the above list is not very productive (I'm gonna loose game1 unless i get the nutz).
I could easily splash a colour, but outside a few niche cards i see no real benefit. Welder could potentially speed the deck up and there's a few other red cards that might be worth it...Mainly Gorilla shaman, fire/Ice and REB's.

As for intu/AK - It's slow and unless you've got the 4th AK in hand it's just 3UU for 3 cards....While DA is potentially 8 cards. I find that i can build mana and my hand size up surprisingly fast with da's. Also DA's are quite good to drain into...And unlike AK they're not dead without intuition. Just don't cast them into a drain!  Also compared to intu/AK, just flashing 1 DA is almost the same amount of cards as the 3rd AK would've drawn, If we consider the raw CA of flashing a DA it's equal to that of AK for 3 cards.

As for the suggested frantic search: I could see playing with it, but what to cut? My list is already missing thirst and ponder which are both alot stronger imo.

I've also tested repeals but i didn't like them much....only match-up where i found them to be decent was against fish.

[Ufactor]

This might be jank, but have you tested Reconstruction or Master Transmuter as an Intuition target?

[MagicMan]

Iv'e tested Intuition with Reconstruction and Academy Ruins which worked well, but the ruins was obviously slow, especially if I had already played a land that turn, but maybe Welder/Reconstruction/Time Vault Intuition package could be good. These are some interesting ideas. As of right this second I'm running Night's Wisper, but I feel tha going back to some form of my intuition build would be better. Plus, I really like the welder Idea, Hmmmmmm . . . .

[vassago]

As for the suggested frantic search: I could see playing with it, but what to cut? My list is already missing thirst and ponder which are both alot stronger imo.

I've also tested repeals but i didn't like them much....only match-up where i found them to be decent was against fish.

As big of a fan as I am of remand, I dont know how i feel about it.  Just seems like its a horrible draw after like turn five or six, unless you opponent is mana screwed, and then your winning anyway so doesnt matter all that much.  I mean, it could be ok, but then again I havent tried it, but I can say looking at it on paper, I think you could do something better with the four slots.  Maybe the four cards could turn into ponder, tfk, frantic search and one random other card.

Too bad your testing of repeals didnt come out too well. I have recently found this card to be awesome. I have bounced timevaults, Bobs, rods, and even my own moxen to get library active.  I really like it after using it a few times, and try to fit it in decks if I can.  Another loose play is put both top activations on the stack, repeal, to draw 2 cards and and filter the next three cards. 

[Metman]

I too have been racking my brain trying to come up with a replacement for Thirst.  My testing has been limited (isn't everybody in this situation though) but it has gone in two directions.

The first direction is more a Slaverish build with Goblin Welders.  In that instance my deck started looking a lot like the old Goth Slaver builds sans 2-3 Thirsts (depending on how many one started with) and added Frantic Search.  That left me with 1-2 slots.  The most important conclusion I came to is that the artifacts had to a get out of my hand to make the deck work.  I couldn't replace them with stuff like Merchant Scroll and Ponder for said reason.  The two best cards that I found for this job are Ideas Unbound and Pulse of the Grid.  Ideas Unbound shined when I was ready to secure the game with a lethal Yawg or when I just needed 1-2 artifacts in the grave for my Welder to do its job.  The Pulse of the Grid feels most like Thirst when you get to put it back into your hand.  If that's the case it is Thirst sans the casting cost, which isn't that far off. 

The other direction was to play more of a traditional Tezz build and again add the Intuitions.  I do like the Accumulated Knowledges just because they are absolutely insane when you get to go EOT Intution and on your turn cast AK twice.  Now assuming the Intutions are played, I've tested Relearn instead of Welders, which prevented me from going with a third color.  I liked Regrowth but didn't like green.  Relearn grabs all the goodies that make Vintage fun, it isn't restricted, and it's blue.

My only beef with Intuition is that the grave is now a crux for the deck.  What made Tezz with Thirst so damned good was that pitching cards to Thirst was fine but didn't hurt if T. Crypt or Leyline was played.  If you are running Intutions and AK/DA your draw engine is toast with a resolved grave hate spell. 

When Tezzeret was first introduced to the format and Time Vault was re-re-reerrated into something playable my initial reaction was to grab my Dark Confidants and Impulses.  Thirst proved better but now we have to go without.  Confidant has been beaten to death and may in fact be the card to choose but Impulse may supplement as a pseudo Merchant Scroll/Brainstorm.     

[M.Solymossy]

If I do well at the Open, you'll see which engine I chose.  It *is* one of the ones posted.

[vassago]

If I do well at the Open, you'll see which engine I chose.  It *is* one of the ones posted.

Running Bobs in GWSX is no surprise Mike. We have been seeing the deck for a few months now, so why are you being so vague?   

[M.Solymossy]

i'll be running Tezz on Saturday, and probably GWSx on Sunday.

[vassago]

So what draw engine are you running in your Tez deck?         Please tell me its whispers of the muse

[M.Solymossy]

So what draw engine are you running in your Tez deck?         Please tell me its whispers of the muse

evermind on a stick.

[zeus-online]

As big of a fan as I am of remand, I dont know how i feel about it.  Just seems like its a horrible draw after like turn five or six, unless you opponent is mana screwed, and then your winning anyway so doesnt matter all that much.  I mean, it could be ok, but then again I havent tried it, but I can say looking at it on paper, I think you could do something better with the four slots.  Maybe the four cards could turn into ponder, tfk, frantic search and one random other card.

In type1 i don't really take into consideration what happens that late in a game...If it's turn 5 or 6 i should be winning, or have already lost.
The point is, as i stated, to buy time to get mana drain online. It has also on occasion been nice to send the card to their hand instead of the graveyard (welders).
Another trick that is to use it against counters....Let's say you play fact, your opponent forces, you remand the fact...That's +2 CA to you right there (Assuming that he played the pitchcost).

I'm not sold on remand yet, but it does seem to have it's uses. There have been situations where i wished they where negates, duress or something like that....But against fish and shops i've been satisfied....none of the other options would've worked equally well.

[Qube]

Did you ever mention to run Quiet Speculation if you play 3-4 Deep? It's 1 cheeper, sorcery but brings all of them in your graveyard.

[the_lord_shaper]

I noticed that Compulsive Research hasn't been mentioned yet. It's at least good enough to test.

[kalisia]

I'm testing Compulsive Research for 2 weeks and it seems completely good!
I think 2 copies of it is a maximum, because it suffers to Misdirection.
I think it is just the best replacement of TFK for people who want to keep the double effect [Draw + discard DSC] that was used with TFK.

Just a last suggestion : why not to try to build differently instead of always try to "replace" the cards that are arriving on the B/R list ?
Why not try to just win instead of drawing more and more cards? I suggest Mystical Teachings (which is a really broken card) as a new draw/tutor engine. In a deck running all the artifact accelerants and the best multi-tutor cards like Intuition and Gifts Ungiven, Teachings is amazing!

[swawagon]

Compulsive Research is a sorcery and Misdirectable. I'd rather play an Un-Duressable Mulldrifter for the same net in cards, plus the potential for a 2/2 flier.

[reaperbong]

i have a question- is Diabolic Vision strictly worse then Impulse even if i'm running a fair amount of black (DT, VT, YW, 3x Thoughtseize or Night's Whisper plus even 1x The Abyss)

Diabolic Vision
Sorcery, UB
Look at the top five cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on top of your library in any order.

Impluse
Instant, 1U
Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library

so for 1 black instead of 1 colorless you dig 1 more card and also get to topdeck 1 of 4 cards for your next draw. i think the difference may be crucial. The thing i don't like with Impulse is if more then 1 of the 4 cards you dig is also ideal like another combo piece or back-up for your combo assembly like a FOW then you're skrewing yourself putting the cards on the bottom of the library in exchange for a random top deck next turn. i think with Tez it's quite likely that more then 1 of the 5 cards you dig will be a crucial card you will want to top deck.

of course sorcery vs. instant is a major difference as well. but at least the art is cool, the art for Impulse sucks!

i haven't tested though just a thought, what do you guys think?

[M.Solymossy]

I have played a list with 4 Impulse, and the only problem with the card is every time you force of will with that engine in your deck, you can't replenish the card loss.

As for the argument compulsive research versus Mulldrifter.   Compulsive draws further, which isactually very useful.  However, Mulldrifter does play well with Thorn as well as Negate.

[kkoie]

i have a question- is Diabolic Vision strictly worse then Impulse even if i'm running a fair amount of black (DT, VT, YW, 3x Thoughtseize or Night's Whisper plus even 1x The Abyss)

Diabolic Vision
Sorcery, UB
Look at the top five cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on top of your library in any order.

Impluse
Instant, 1U
Look at the top four cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library

so for 1 black instead of 1 colorless you dig 1 more card and also get to topdeck 1 of 4 cards for your next draw. i think the difference may be crucial. The thing i don't like with Impulse is if more then 1 of the 4 cards you dig is also ideal like another combo piece or back-up for your combo assembly like a FOW then you're skrewing yourself putting the cards on the bottom of the library in exchange for a random top deck next turn. i think with Tez it's quite likely that more then 1 of the 5 cards you dig will be a crucial card you will want to top deck.

of course sorcery vs. instant is a major difference as well. but at least the art is cool, the art for Impulse sucks!

i haven't tested though just a thought, what do you guys think?

Personally, I would run Lim-Dul's Vault over Diabolic Vision.  Though between Lim-Dul's Vault, Diabolic Vision, and Impulse, Impulse is best since Vault is not a draw spell.  Lim-Dul however has been used very effectively in combo decks, such as Oath.

Instant, UB (2)
Look at the top five cards of your library. As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library, then look at the top five cards of your library. Then shuffle your library and put the last cards you looked at this way on top of it in any order.1

It may not be better than Impulse as a draw spell, since their is no draw, but I beleive it is better than Diabolic Vision.  The con of course  being that it has no draw to it.  The pro's being: 1. it's an instant, so you can cast it durring your opponents end-step or durring your upkeep. 2. you can repeat the effect for 1 life, so eventually you can ensure the best choice of 5 cards possible for the top of your deck.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

You might even try Standstill.  It's weak vs. Dredge but Tez is always weak vs. Dredge in game 1.  Unlike Mystic Remora, it activates off creatures, so Fishy decks can't slip by.  It's worth a thought I think.

Peace,

-Troy

[swawagon]

4 Ninja of the Deep Hours with Gorilla Shaman/Spellstutter Sprites and other small creatures, is a draw engine. It takes up many slots in a deck, but it has some excellent synergy and doubles as situational disruption.

[arkmagus]

I've also found that 2 Compulsive Research are manageable and they pack a punch.  Never mind that it's sorcery, everything is slow nowadays. It's particularly manageable running Drains but it doesn't require it. 4 Impulses are likewise good and I would choose them any day against another top-deck tutor.  I recall the time when even V. Tutor was excluded in some decks because of the tempo loss, well, the same argument holds true in the case of Lim-Dul's Vault.

I've tested 2 Compulsive Research and 4 Impulses, more in an Oath deck than anything.  And even without running Drains, I didn't have problems casting the Research.

[jaeppel]

4 Ninja of the Deep Hours with Gorilla Shaman/Spellstutter Sprites and other small creatures, is a draw engine. It takes up many slots in a deck, but it has some excellent synergy and doubles as situational disruption.

but now youre talking about a draw engine for fish... or have you come up with some crazy fishtezz hybrid?

[Caron]

i've played intuition + deep a lot in my tezz and it works very well...
but finally i came back to intu+ak... i works better in my opinion even if you need more slots..
i have also tryed opt... but no good results...
and impulse.. but still not enough card advantage..
and bob.. but same problems you have encountered...
and voltaic key+top but not that good.. you rather close the combo befor closing key + top
... and many others..
but still now i like 1) intu+ak 2)intu+ deep..

i have to say that repeal + remora is not that bad...
anyway..


CARONDIMONIO

[vassago]

As big of a fan as I am of remand, I dont know how i feel about it.  Just seems like its a horrible draw after like turn five or six, unless you opponent is mana screwed, and then your winning anyway so doesnt matter all that much.  I mean, it could be ok, but then again I havent tried it, but I can say looking at it on paper, I think you could do something better with the four slots.  Maybe the four cards could turn into ponder, tfk, frantic search and one random other card.

In type1 i don't really take into consideration what happens that late in a game...If it's turn 5 or 6 i should be winning, or have already lost.
The point is, as i stated, to buy time to get mana drain online. It has also on occasion been nice to send the card to their hand instead of the graveyard (welders).
Another trick that is to use it against counters....Let's say you play fact, your opponent forces, you remand the fact...That's +2 CA to you right there (Assuming that he played the pitchcost).

I'm not sold on remand yet, but it does seem to have it's uses. There have been situations where i wished they where negates, duress or something like that....But against fish and shops i've been satisfied....none of the other options would've worked equally well.

I understand the tempo you are trying to generate with remand, but I do not see it as necessary if you are trying to basically skip their turn one.  Do not get me wrong, that could just be the stones.  However, I do not see this card being useful aside from that one instance.

[Lemnear]

I tested the following list all day long. Problem with intu+ak is that ak's are shit without playing Intuition before while taking much space. So I tried DA as mana-sink and ended up with a insane carddraw in this deck combined with massive disruption. The obvious problem is the mass-life-loss of this engine. Maybe a second tendrils or a red-splash instead of green for EtW could made some match-ups easier....

Deep Night Drains V.1

1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Repeal
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
4 Night's Whisper
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea

SB:

3 Trygon Predator
2 H. Recall
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tarmogoyf
2 y. Jailer
2 T. Crypt
2 Tropical Island

PS: Me and a teammate tested it successfully vs. bob-mora-tezz, ak-drin-tendrils and MUD

[rikimaru75]

Have you considered any of the following?

Breakthrough
Concentrate
Careful Consideration
Esper Charm
Careful Study
Frantic Search