GenCon Fish Feedback Needed

[TrueUVGP]

Hello folks,
Admiral Ackbar here again.
This time I'm gearing up for Gencon in Indy.
I wrote up a preliminary list off the little information I have to currently work with.
I'm hoping people will find the time to read and critique what I have so far.
I only have a month to prepare, so I need help.

-Mana-
3 Polluted Delta   
3 Underground Sea   
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine
1 Mishra's Factory

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl

-Pressure-
4 Dark Confidant
3 Meddling Mage
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Cursecatcher
2 Kataki, War's Wage

-Counters-
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

-Disruption-
3 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

-Answers-
1 Rushing River
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast

-Good Stuff-
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor   

Board

3 Path to Exile
3 Energy Flux
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Echoing Truth


Now the idea here is I hate budget decks.
Gencon is a no proxy event and as such I have to assume that the first four rounds will undoubtedly involve the three cheapest decks in vintage, Elf Bomb, Goblins (Vial or Food Chain), and Dredge (Mana, or no Mana).

In my last post I was muddling over playing RootWater Thief in my main.
I've decided that at the moment there is no room for that Tez hater.
From information I've attained on the drain it seems that Tez players are adopting spell snare into their mains, which makes sense since they now are nearly forced to play Dark Confidant to replace those thirsts and it counters mana drain the best counter printed.
Out of fear of getting wiped out by combinations drains and snares, I've swapped that spot out for cursecatcher despite my old hatred for twenty turn clocks.

Extirpate main is an idea I've been attempting to implement for a long time, I used to run it back in the day when I was stuck on playing black white fish.
Now that I've matured some and improved some that card eventually made its way to the sideboard slots.
However for Gencon it just might be necessary to see them game one.
Extirpating Narcomeba and Ichorid more often than not wins you that game one.
And typically Dredge is a lose win lose situation for me, so with extirpate main I'm hoping instead for a win lose win situation.

Against Goblins and Elves I bring in my standard critter hate package, spiced with my experimental twist, Engineered Plague.
I'm hoping that fills in the whole against those two matches which are honestly not very good for me at all.
The card may even find itself getting sideboarded in against Oath just to name spirits.

With Enlightened Tutor unrestricted I'm posed with the question of running them somewhere in my list.
I don't think they can make it main with the only targets being null rod or Black Lotus main.
In the days when I ran crucible and top main potentially. But I had to cut them to make room for extirpates.
I'm testing two in the board right now to fetch other board cards like energy flux, engineered plague, or relic.
They may end up being cut in favor of pithing needle or engineered explosives or something else.


That's it for now, I'll leave with some sideboard tech and hopefully start hearing things soon.
-Admiral Ackbar, Team Rebel Alliance. R.I.P The Wookie

Stacks or Mud

+3 Energy Flux
+3 Path to Exile
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+ 1 Diabolic Edict

-3 Cursecatcher
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Duress

Tez

+3 Path to Exile
+1 Diabolic Edict

-2 Kataki
-1 Rushing River
-1 Time Walk

Dredge

+3 Path to Exile
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Diabolic Edict

-3 Spell Snare
-2 Null Rod
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Duress
-1 Kataki

Goblins

+3 Path to Exile
+3 Engineered Plague
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Diabolic Edict

-3 Extirpate
-2 Null Rod
-2 Cursecatcher
-1 Duress
-1 Kataki

Elf Bomb

+3 Path to Exile
+3 Engineered Plague
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Diabolic Edict

-3 Extirpate
-2 Null Rod
-2 Kataki
-1 Duress
-1 Cursecatcher

Mirror

+3 Path to Exile
+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Echoing Truth

-3 Extirpate
-2 Null Rod

Oath

+1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Echoing Truth

-2 Null Rod

[vassago]

Things look pretty tight so far, so I think you will do well. My only suggestion is cutting rushing river for duress effect number four.   

[FAVO!!!!1]

Why don't you run the Path's main deck? You side it in for everything your expecting except for Oath. I don't know what to cut, but I'm just giving you some food for thought.

 Also, whats your plan for GW or Zoo?

[TrueUVGP]

To FAVO!!!!1:

I used to run a single path to exile in the main, but I had to nix it in favor of Darkblast.
The reason being with fish on the rise, and lots of dark confidant's and welder's running around, I can't afford to lose to having path countered.
It does nothing against inkwell and is too one shot if you know what I mean.
I used to run one path main and two in the board, so now I have all three in the board at the moment.
Thank you for your imput, I will see if I can fit a path main again.

[TrueUVGP]

To vassago:

Fitting the four duress effect has been on my mind.
Cutting Rushing River for it is a suggestion I haven't taken into consideration yet.
Rushing River is there mainly to work around Chalice of the Void which will normally be set at two or one.
Its my only main deck bounce spell and it clears the field for the alpha swing.
I have been advised to cut an extirpate to fit the fourth duress, what do you think?

[policehq]

I haven't tested a list like this with Extirpates main, but I think you're playing far too many Duress, especially with Cursecatcher AND Spell Snare in the same list. I think you would do well to drop the Duress, 2 Thoughtseize, and 3 Extirpate for 3 Path to Exile, Mystical Tutor, the 3rd Null Rod, and Hurkyl's Recall.

[TrueUVGP]

To policehq:

Duress effects are necessary for leading into Meddling Mages so you don't have to call them blind.
Duress effects also fill the graveyard with extirpate targets.
Keep in mind I'm expecting a lot of dredge at Gencon at least in the first few rounds.
In a tourney so big you can't even lose once, I cannot afford to lost to dredge game one.

[Natxete]

No Proxy= Lot of wastelands, for this reason I prefer Two Color Fish.
I Think a main Hurkils Recall is needed.
I´m playing this list:

2 Icatian javelineers
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Sage of Epityr
1 Stormscape Aprentice (Or StP)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swords to plowshares
3 Stifle
1 Mystical tutor
1 Time Walk
3 Null rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

An other option so good to non proxy tournaments, that is an Agro Control Deck, but not a Fish is Black Green, with Goyfs, Confidants, Rituals, Duress, Hymto tourach and Null rods.
This is a list, but I would change some cards.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22534
This Deck is better than Fish against Budget decks. And you can add good cards as Hidden Guerrillas and gibons, or add Root maze (optimicing the mana base arround it). It has a lot of possibilities.

[policehq]

If you want your main to be strong against Dredge, Duress effects really aren't going to help. Extirpate really isn't that powerful against Dredge unless you happen across all three of them at the right time, or a combination of Extirpate and Cursecatcher, and Extirpate isn't good against the more powerful blue-based decks that are based on restricted cards.

In any case Echoing Truth should replace Rushing River in the main, and Enlightened Tutor has no place coming in against your fast match-ups.

Meddling Mage does not depend on Duress effects, or it wouldn't have been played in UW Fish without black. Even with Duress, its usefulness is in question.

I would probably play Natxete's list -1 StP, -1 Fetch, -Stormscape Apprentice for +3 Path to Exile and include six anti-Dredge cards in the sideboard.

[Natxete]

Another good option to play (I think) is URg.
Hear is a list I want to test when time.

MAINDECK
3 Cursecatcher
1 Grim lavamancer
3 Sage of Epityr   
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Misdirection
1 Spell Snare
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Deglamer/1 Echoing Truth
2  Fire/Ice
1 Hurkils recall
1 Mystical tutor
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
1 Spell Snare
1 Fire/Ice
1 Grim Lavancer
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt

[vassago]

To vassago:

Fitting the four duress effect has been on my mind.
Cutting Rushing River for it is a suggestion I haven't taken into consideration yet.
Rushing River is there mainly to work around Chalice of the Void which will normally be set at two or one.
Its my only main deck bounce spell and it clears the field for the alpha swing.
I have been advised to cut an extirpate to fit the fourth duress, what do you think?

I didnt see the extirpates in the list earlier when i looked at it. Oops brain fart right? To be honest i wouldnt play more than one in the main, that way you can put echoing truth in your list, which is another thing I did not notice. 

[A_Outcast]

i honestly think extirpates are amazing in g1.  it does so many things, if you can lure a force/drain you can remove the rest of their force/drains plus plan a few turns ahead getting to see their hand.  plus using it against ichorid by hitting a narcomoeba/ichorid can be devastating so i would definetly leave them in.

i would personally try to add in 1 crucible just because you have the strip mines and wastelands, and strip mine+crucible is always good to use as a backup plan.  it gets that much better if they are using a crucible with wasteland/stripmine because it essentially negates theirs.  i would probobly cut 1 confidant for the crucible.  just so you have it in for use with strip/waste

[Elfrago]

Extirpate is awful maindeck. Too slow, too conditional, too weak against Ichorid and useless vs Shop, Fish, Zoo and such....

I'd rather drop that and run Swords to Plowshares maindeck, wich is soo good in an non-proxy meta. Also Swords is way better than Path when you're running Null Rod, Wasteland, Strip Mine and Cursecatcher.

[Natxete]

Also Swords is way better than Path when you're running Null Rod, Wasteland, Strip Mine and Cursecatcher.

I think like you.

[Ufactor]

Clearly this belongs in the Improvement Forum.

[the_lord_shaper]

If you want to try something really different but fairly cheap, he's a R/U aggro list I made a while back

Creatures: 23
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter Servant
4 Curse Catcher
4 Ninja of Deep Hours
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Simian Spirit Guide

Instants & Sorcery: 16
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyro Blast
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurcly's Recall
1 TimeWalk

Artifacts: 5
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus

Lands: 16
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
7 Islands

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Greater Gargadon
1 Red Elemental blast
1 Pryoblast
2 Shattering Spree
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Also, merfolk is a viable deck in a no-proxy tourney. Its also cheap as hell to make.

[FAVO!!!!1]

To FAVO!!!!1:

I used to run a single path to exile in the main, but I had to nix it in favor of Darkblast.
The reason being with fish on the rise, and lots of dark confidant's and welder's running around, I can't afford to lose to having path countered.
It does nothing against inkwell and is too one shot if you know what I mean.
I used to run one path main and two in the board, so now I have all three in the board at the moment.
Thank you for your imput, I will see if I can fit a path main again.

They are too one shot main deck, but not one shot in the board? And I agree with one of the previous posts in regards to Swords vs Path - If your running such a heavy mana disruption package, why run Path and give them a chance to get out of it?

What if you run a heavier tutor package, so you can cut down on those match-up specific choices in the main? Trinket Mage is still pretty good at beating the budget decks you hate while providing a clock that you can start racing with. With Trinket Mage, you get Engineered Explosives, Relic of Prognetitus, Top (and I'll let you burrow Cool Top if you want), and AEther Spellbomb... Although this does make running Null Rod weaker, you can always cut one of those and side in the 4th for the match-ups you need it against.

As far as Extirpate being bad against Ichorid and Blue decks - Are you guys nuts? Extirpating Ichorid or Narcomoeba takes away half of the decks offense. Losing Narcomoeba alone puts you back an extra 2 turns. And you never target a draw spell from the blue decks. Force and Drain are your targets. Strip their protection and their win conditions become easy targets.

Although, I do agree that 3 main deck might not be the right number. You don't need it against Elves, Shops, or GW aggro as they will find another way to win. I would play 2 at most, but even that feels like its pushing your luck.

[A_Outcast]

To FAVO!!!!1:

I used to run a single path to exile in the main, but I had to nix it in favor of Darkblast.
The reason being with fish on the rise, and lots of dark confidant's and welder's running around, I can't afford to lose to having path countered.
It does nothing against inkwell and is too one shot if you know what I mean.
I used to run one path main and two in the board, so now I have all three in the board at the moment.
Thank you for your imput, I will see if I can fit a path main again.

They are too one shot main deck, but not one shot in the board? And I agree with one of the previous posts in regards to Swords vs Path - If your running such a heavy mana disruption package, why run Path and give them a chance to get out of it?

What if you run a heavier tutor package, so you can cut down on those match-up specific choices in the main? Trinket Mage is still pretty good at beating the budget decks you hate while providing a clock that you can start racing with. With Trinket Mage, you get Engineered Explosives, Relic of Prognetitus, Top (and I'll let you burrow Cool Top if you want), and AEther Spellbomb... Although this does make running Null Rod weaker, you can always cut one of those and side in the 4th for the match-ups you need it against.

As far as Extirpate being bad against Ichorid and Blue decks - Are you guys nuts? Extirpating Ichorid or Narcomoeba takes away half of the decks offense. Losing Narcomoeba alone puts you back an extra 2 turns. And you never target a draw spell from the blue decks. Force and Drain are your targets. Strip their protection and their win conditions become easy targets.

Although, I do agree that 3 main deck might not be the right number. You don't need it against Elves, Shops, or GW aggro as they will find another way to win. I would play 2 at most, but even that feels like its pushing your luck.

i completely agree with you on extirpate against ichorid/blue.  they are truely amazing if used against the right card. 
well a well timed extirpate can be devastating against a shop player as well.  if you turn 1 duress/sieze you can easily rip away one of their win conditions (cruc/welder/jugg/stax) while i will agree it can be a dead card against aggroe unless you manage to get lucky and theyu having multiple creatures in opening hand which is unlikely.

i personally like 3 extirpates however i can understand your opinion of going down to 2.  i think that one of those extirpates might be better served as an additional disruption (duress/thoughtsieze).

[policehq]

If he's playing Darkblast for Dark Confidant/Goblin Welder removal, then Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares is definitely the better choice, because answering Tarmogoyf, Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx, Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan, etc. with Swords to Plowshares is the same as giving your opponent two or three more turns against this deck.

[Elfrago]

Extirpate ain't good enough against Ichorid. If you extirpate bridges they're still going to get you with Ichorids, or with a Dread Return'ed Golgari Grave Troll. To completrely shut down an Ichorid deck you need to play two or three extirpates, wich usually won't happen during a game. Sure Extirpates buys time, but not enough to win with this combo-less deck.

As for extirpate being good against shop, I don't think so. To achieve what A_Outcast said you must:
- Be pretty lucky with both duress and extirpate in your opening hand.
- Most important, fetch for u-sea in the first turn of the game, an enormous risk . In fact, if you see the opening post duress is sided out against shop, a correct choice IMHO.

And, most important, stack wins by locking you out of the game. And he can achieve that in multiple ways, extirpating something won't be enough.

[A_Outcast]

Extirpate ain't good enough against Ichorid. If you extirpate bridges they're still going to get you with Ichorids, or with a Dread Return'ed Golgari Grave Troll. To completrely shut down an Ichorid deck you need to play two or three extirpates, wich usually won't happen during a game. Sure Extirpates buys time, but not enough to win with this combo-less deck.

As for extirpate being good against shop, I don't think so. To achieve what A_Outcast said you must:
- Be pretty lucky with both duress and extirpate in your opening hand.
- Most important, fetch for u-sea in the first turn of the game, an enormous risk . In fact, if you see the opening post duress is sided out against shop, a correct choice IMHO.

And, most important, stack wins by locking you out of the game. And he can achieve that in multiple ways, extirpating something won't be enough.

taking ichorid from a 2 turn deck to a 4-6 turn deck is AMAZING in itself, because those extra turns can EASILY save you in time to tutor up a second extirpate.

i completely agree with you on this elfrago, extirpate being useful against shot is less rare (due to not getting it+duress opening or it+mox+land+drain opening hand).  i shouldnt of said it can devastate a shop player because your right, it cant, however it can hurt and buy time against a shop player, and buying time in and of itself against shop is always good.

[bluemage55]

Clearly this belongs in the Improvement Forum.

+1

I'm surprised the mods haven't got around to moving it yet.

[Elfrago]

Extirpate alway does something, it's never a dead card. But IMHO it does very little, it's usually card disavantage and takes a long time before it's effect is noticeable on the board. Also Vintage is the world of singleton's and restricted, not really something that Extirpate likes. In my opinion those slots are better deserved to plow since, expecially in today meta and in a no proxy environment.
It does:
- Gives you a fighting chance against gobs or decks packing Tarmogoyf.
- Is better than 'pate vs Shop, dealing with everything except for Triskelion.
- It's better against Drain decks or Ritual decks, dealing with Confidants and Welders quickly and SB'ed Tarmos or Sowers.

I bolded quickly becouse he plays a singleton Darkblast but tutoring for that sometimes, expecially in the first turns of the game, is going to be too slow.
Aside from this debate I would also make this change to the initial list: -1 Echoing +1 Null Rod. Rod is awesome in today meta while Echoing was usually played in Fish decks to deal with DSC, but with the rise of Inkwell it's far less useful ( and he's got edict too!).

[TrueUVGP]

To Everyone:

Sorry I've been off the com for a few days.
I'm testing my list with the crucible back in the main, everyone seems to think that triple extirpate is too much, so I'll take that advice and move it to two and put the crucible back. Then I'll switch it for the fourth duress effect.
But a note on extirpate that no one has seemed to notice.
The most powerful blue decks are turned off very quickly when I waste thier underground sea and then extirpate the rest away.
Extirpate combined with waste effects can devestate a frail mana base.
Against dredge, if I extirpate Narcomeba and ichorid my opponent cannot win.
Getting two out of two can be difficult, so I was running with three.
But I'm inclined to agree that I can get away with just two considering I have tutor effects.

A not about Swords to Plowshares.
I dilligently ran Swords up to the point when path to exile was released.
I understand that Path can be counter-intuitive to my mana denile package, however Swords is counter-intuitive to my win condition, creature damage.
When I'm put into a situation where I have to race against my own Dark Confidant, giving my opponent a large sum of life from a DC, or Titan, or large Goyf or Grave Troll puts me back 2-3 turns, which I cannot afford to do.
I'm running triple Aven MindCensor, and many decks are fetching out their basic lands against me as a precautionary messure to begin with. Odds are 50% of the time Path will net my opponents nothing, the other 50% they get put ahead one land which doesn't time walk them at all.

[TrueUVGP]

To Everyone:

A note one path/swords main.
Before the days of Inkwell Leviathan, I did used to run two swords to plowshares in my main deck, and i loved them.
However with the advent of Inkwell, I changed it to one path and one edict main.
Then I realized slowly through tournements and testing that taking one crack at swords/pathing a welder wasn't good enough.
The Goyfs and Sowers are in sideboards unless I happen to have to face bug fish, or Noble Hierarch fish. So I decided to switch the path and put in a darkblast. Darkblast does so many things, it kills Confidants and Welders, including my confidants if my life gets to low. It holds down ichorid since most of their fancy tricks involve having the ichorid make it to the main phase. It helps you keep them under the dred return cost. When you dredge it, it can put crucible targets in the yard. It'll keep orchard tokens in check while you look for the wasteland or bounce spell.
Trust me, you see Darkblast in many good sideboards as a one of, I'm trying it in the main.

[Althena]

Hey,

I have been testing UBW fish for some time now and my best recomendation is to consider running ethersworn canonist.  If you are really concerned about goblins and elf being at GenCon which I assume they will be, she would be a great addition to the team.  Doesn't hurt your deck very much.  Cripples elf ball and is amazing against most other combo decks.  It is also good against Tez.  I am not saying that canonist is the ultimate solution but I would recommend her.

I have plenty of suggestions but without drastically changing the deck this is my best one.  Canonist and meddling mage also work well together because it gives alot of decks two cards they need to deal with.

One last thing.  Fish is a great budget deck but I would definitely recommend that you find yourself a way to deal with aggro decks.  You don't really have any meat in the deck and random aggro will most like run you over.  It is tough to tell you to just throw in a few cards in the side as a solution but if you do cut the enlightened tutors.  For GenCon I would definitely expect more aggro decks than the average tournament.  Best of luck and I may run into you at GenCon.

[LordHomerCat]

I'm not sure what your Gencon experiences have been like, but the two years I've played (06 and 08) I faced fully powered decks every round.  No budget aggro or powerless RG beats, but fully powered TPS and Slaver and stuff like that.  Maybe you will get (un)lucky and get to play against an extended deck in round 1, but after that it will be just like any other major vintage event in terms of deck breakdown.

[ErkBek]

I'm not sure what your Gencon experiences have been like, but the two years I've played (06 and 08) I faced fully powered decks every round.  No budget aggro or powerless RG beats, but fully powered TPS and Slaver and stuff like that.  Maybe you will get (un)lucky and get to play against an extended deck in round 1, but after that it will be just like any other major vintage event in terms of deck breakdown.

Agreed. Don't count on playing budget decks at Gencon, there are very few.

i honestly think extirpates are amazing in g1.  it does so many things, if you can lure a force/drain you can remove the rest of their force/drains plus plan a few turns ahead getting to see their hand.  plus using it against ichorid by hitting a narcomoeba/ichorid can be devastating so i would definetly leave them in.

A properly built fish deck shouldn't be concerned about Extirpating their counterspells. Extirpate on counters is for decks that win the game by resolving their bombs. Fish incrementally builds advantage via tempo. You should be concerned about stopping your opponent from winning, not their counterspells. Besides, Duress effects are far superior at keeping your opponents off counters. Only thing I like about Extirpate in the main is that you can Extirpate duals after you waste them.

If you're going to run Cursecatcher, you need to play more mana denial. It sounds like Cursecatcher isn't worth it these days, since shop and aggro decks are picking up a little.

Your blue count is really low, and it'll probably drop after boarding.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The ICBM open taught us a clear lesson that you seem to be ignoring: discard and Null Rod are very good right now, especially combined with Mindcensor to prevent Tutor->Will.

[xouman]

Has somebody tried Extirpate + Mind Funeral? With smallpox/sinkhole and stifle we can SERIOUSLY damage opponent's mana base. Add null rod, duress, counters, glimpse the unthinkable... too much disruptive?