Green Landstill

[meadbert]

So I have now received numerous PMs regarding the Green Landstill deck that I have been testing.  This list is not ready and has a ton of room for improvement.

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

4 Null Rod

4 Squee,Goblin Nabob

4 Standstill
1 Time Walk
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Tolarian Winds
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Chain Of Vapor

4 Life From The Loam
4 Crop Rotation

sideboard
1 Tabernacle At Pendral Vale
2 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Deglamer
4 Oxidize

This deck has some advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages:
1)  Insane Draw Engine.
2)  Insane Mana Denial.
3)  Uncounterable win condition.
4)  Better, but still poor Dredge matchup compared to traditional Landstill.  (Tabernacle may belong in main)

Disadvantages
1)  Force on Crop Rotation leads to random games where you lose.  This is a big problem on the play, and less problematic on the draw where you should be Croppering out Factory instead of Trops.
2)  Still slow
3)  Loss of Stifle/MisD makes Combo matchup worse.

Here is a discussion of the card choices which I am in no position to claim are near optimal.  I am giving the reasons why they are there.  These are not reasons that they should be there.

Lands:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Mutavault
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

The fetch Dual base sort of makes sense.  I can say that under no circumstances can you reduce this below 10.  The reason is that otherwise Force on Cropper is worse than it already is now.  The reason for the relatively high number of fetches and no basics are Life from the Loam.  You want access to green even more than blue at times and you want lands to return.

Factories and Mutavaults are pretty standard.

Strip and 4 Bazaars make sense given the deck.

The biggest question is why on Earth do I run only 1 Wasteland.  Basically there are already 22 lands in a deck with an insane draw engine and no Fastbonds.  Running more lands can provide more options, but you end up land flooded at times.  This is heavily mitigated with Bazaar and Tolarian Winds but still questionable.  If I add more Wastelands what comes out?  Without 4 Bazaars, Squees start to look questionable.  As mentioned earlier the 10 Fetch/Duals are key.  Strip is better than Waste.  The best land to drop would be Mutavault, but 6 seems about right for a clock.  I could see dropping to just 4 Factories and then adding Tabernacle and Waste#2.  This may be an improvement.  Another possibility would be to add Riftstone Portal so Factories/Bazaars can tap for green, but again what do I drop?

No Lotus, Sapphire, Emerald?  This might be dumb ... Particularly the Lotus.  Basically I was losing to Force on Cropper and decided that I needed more Lands and thus dropped accelerants.  Basically I would much rather Cropper out Mutavault on turn 2 then have a hand with only Trops + Sapphire and thus open myself to a loss by Croppering out Trops.

Null Rod and Standstill are of course bombs.

Cropper finds Bazaar or Strip or Tabernacle post board.

Loam and Squee have great synergy with both Bazaar and Tolarian Winds.

Force, Chain of Vapor and Drain are fairly standard.  I am not sure that Drain is right here.  I have tried both Force and Stifle instead.  Generally Cropper makes Stifle worse since you can already remove Basics that they fetch for and Drain is usually better than MisD.

The final card might be the most controversial.  It is Tolarian Winds.  Basically it says discard your hand and draw that many cards so it is card disadvantage, but it is an instant and has some great interactions with Squee and Loam.  Basically you almost always have 7 cards and if you randomly have Bazaar Needle, but you are recurring Waste or Strip with Bazaar then you suddenly find yourself with a hand of like 6-7 lands/Squees.  In that case Winds is pretty awesome.  Winds is also huge if you are digging for Force in an emergency.
Finally, with only 22 blue cards, it is tough to reduce the blue count.  Winds is commonly pitched to Force.  Against Stifle Spell Snare and Mana Leak are all possibly better.

The board is mostly a rough draft.

One possibility is adding Tabernacle to the main.  This helps against Dredge and even aggro in general.  With Cropper for Strip and Rod it is not unreasonable to run even Fish out of mana and thus wipe their board with Tabernacle.  Even Drain decks will probably run Dark Confidant more thus making Tabernacle better.  If Tabernacle is added then perhaps Chain of Vapors could be reduced.

Another possibility is adding Dryad Arbor in place of Mutavaults.  Arbor is a much worse man land, but being able to use him to cast Loam after Cropper is Forced is huge.  Also, being able to Cropper him out is nice as well.

Chalice might be good for fighting Combo especially since there are no cards adversely effected.

Relic of Progenitus is not particularly good given that I love my own yard.  Also the cost to activate means I cannot use it till turn 2, but at least I can play it turn 1.  Needle on Bazaar would be bad in that spot.  Wheel of Sun and Moon is too slow as a turn 2 play not to mention that having 2 on color mana is no where near guarenteed.  It may actually be best to just run 3xTabernacle or even more Wastes instead of running Relic.

I am still in the fairly early stages of testing so it will be a few months before I really have a sense of where to take this.  Hopefully there a plenty of improvements to be made.

[Shock Wave]

Traditional Landstill has a very strong late game and a weaker early game. Your Bazaar/Loam engine is also very strong in the mid/late game and very weak in the early game. I do not see how this list is an improvement over traditional Landstill, since you are providing the same advantages, yet are sacrificing more in the early game by cutting back on your early game disruption (Stifle, Fire/Ice).

Given the heavier aggro component of today's metagame, I do not think playing 4 CoV as your "removal" suite is the right path to take.

I look forward to your testing results, however.

[TopSecret]

If you are considering Dryad Arbor, which has summoning sickness,
perhaps you should consider Treetop Village instead?

If you are questioning Drain, you could always try Negate, Spellsnare, Disrupt,
OR FORBID!
It combos with both Squee and Life from the Loam!
That's a pretty good soft lock if they're light on mana!

Also, I think you should either play Goyf or Lorescale Coatl in the sideboard for aggro.
I'm leaning towards the Coatl, because you play both Bazaar and Tolarian Winds.
Tolarian Winds with Coatl could be broken.

Another idea for the sideboard is Dawnstrider.
Against decks that need the combat step, it's like Platinum Angel for two mana!
The only problem I can see is that you still have to win after you have it in play.
This could be solved by Faerie Conclaves.

[meadbert]

Traditional Landstill has a very strong late game and a weaker early game. Your Bazaar/Loam engine is also very strong in the mid/late game and very weak in the early game. I do not see how this list is an improvement over traditional Landstill, since you are providing the same advantages, yet are sacrificing more in the early game by cutting back on your early game disruption (Stifle, Fire/Ice).

Given the heavier aggro component of today's metagame, I do not think playing 4 CoV as your "removal" suite is the right path to take.

I look forward to your testing results, however.

So I have not missed Fire/Ice much except against Xantid Swarm.  Stifle is relevant against fast Tendrils combo, but it is not clear to me that Long will be highly played going forward.  I am more concerned about Elves where Stifle is less effective.
Crop Rotation replaces Stifle against Control for the purpose of mana denial.

What is missed in the early game are Misdirections and Red Blasts, but those are best against Blue Control and Loam and Bazaar/Squee do a great job there.
I totally agree about Chain of Vapor.  Between giving opponents a chance to bounce Rod and not answering Leviathan it has some severe drawbacks.  Where it is needed is answering Chalice@2 which is a huge beating.

If you are considering Dryad Arbor, which has summoning sickness,
perhaps you should consider Treetop Village instead?

If you are questioning Drain, you could always try Negate, Spellsnare, Disrupt,
OR FORBID!
It combos with both Squee and Life from the Loam!
That's almost a pretty good soft lock if they're light on mana!

Also, I think you should either play Goyf or Lorescale Coatl in the sideboard for aggro.
I'm leaning towards the Coatl, because you play both Bazaar and Tolarian Winds.
Tolarian Winds with Coatl could be broken.

Another idea for the sideboard is Dawnstrider.
Against decks that need the combat step, it's like Platinum Angel for two mana!
The only problem I can see is that you still have to win after you have it in play.
This could be solved by Faerie Conclaves.

Dawnstrider is very interesting.  I could see adding 1 or 2 and possibly dropping to 3xLoam or 3xCrop Rotation.  I am reluctant to drop blue cards.

Also, Coatl does seem broken and like a reasonable replacements for Chain of Vapor.  Chalice@2 would still be a beating, but hardcasting Coatle and having the Bazaar/Squee engine would be nice.  Winds would be broken with it.  Coatl also answers Leviathan.
Might Coatl belong in the main?

A common issue I run into in my testing is Ensnaring Bridge, but that is usually post board and thus can be addressed in the board with artifact removal.

As far as replacing Chain of Vapor goes, other options would be Sower of Temptation, Threads of Disloyalty and maindeck Tabernacle at Pendral Vale.

EDIT:  Regarding Dryad Arbor/Treetop Village.  I might try one of each since Croppering or fetching for Arbor if Welder or Dark Confidant attacks seems good.  Arbor becomes weaker if Tabernacle goes to the main.

[A_Outcast]

why not use some of the green fetches as well to help dodge around extirpate?

[BruiZar]

Hi Meadbert,

It's a shame that weathered wayfarer has the drawback that it has, otherwise it would fit great with this deck. The reason for playing dryad arbor over treetop village would be being able to fetch it out. Being able to fetch out creatures can be relevant with Cabal Therapy.

Personally I prefer Constant Mists over Dawnstrider even though it can get countered. Dawnstrider will just get a repeal and DSC/Inkwell will walk over your face. Besides.. Why not use Loam to your full advantage? Also, What's the rationale of not running Fastbond?

[ColinOscapi]

Have you ever considered playing Maze of Ith as tech on aggro? You do have the Crop Rotations.

Or even splash Red (and I mean Splash) for Barbarian Ring. It seems like this would make the deck a little faster see as you have the means to recur it. It also means spot removal for small Fish creatures.

[LennoxLewis86]

I like the idea of adding green to make your middle/late games even stronger. But like said earlier you sacrifice too much early game. If you choose on playing a full compliment of Crop Rotations I'd cut down on Bazaars. It looks like Drain is online turn 3 on average in this deck, which is a bit late. You could fit in 1 Tabernacle if you try this. On the other hand, if counter on Crop is so devastating you might want to cut down on them instead so you could just play Bazaar from hand.
Graveyards are hated out easily, many decks have sideboard slots dedicated to beating Ichorid and from game 2 onward you need to start worrying about Crypts, Needles, Jailers and all kinds of other stuff.
What I like about this deck is that it has good disruption with Strip/Waste and 4 Null Rods. One Wasteland is plenty because you have Crops if you really want him.
Do you really want to mullgan in the middle of the game by playing Tolarian Winds? Life from the Loam and Squee could turn this into card advantage easily. But it's conditional, you really need to find or discard Loam/Squee and have a Bazaar to turn it into card advantage (and if you have all of that available, why play Tolarian Winds and not just Bazaar?)
You are the controlplayer no matter what, when you play Standstill and Drains you basically have to. I think it's too much of a gamble for Landstill to make. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't tested this deck and I've only played a couple of matches against Landstilldecks.

[miss_bun]

I've been working on tweaking a deck kinda sorta similar to this that I originally made for legacy, neat.

One big thing I noticed is that you don't have riftstone portal, which is just completely a dream for this deck.  One or two should do ya, depending on how much graveyard hate you expect.

Singleton boseiju I've found is really great too, as is academy.  Both just give you so much for so little.

The squee engine is really fun, but after trying it over and over again, I've found that I'd rather just have library of alexandria, which is so crazy good with loam.

I also really don't get having so many fetches.  It may sound wonky, but a few horizon canopies is really good too.  All this allows you to remove weaknesses and improve your power while removing redundancies on things that neither get better nor need backing up.

And maybe I'm just a total noob, but I feel like you want like 28ish lands at least with 4 crop rotations.  There are so many good lands to use, and it hurts less when it gets FoWed.

I also don't understand the choice to leave out fastbond.

[scribe888]

Hi!

Did you (intentionally) forget Brainstorm? Is Tolarian Winds really better?

Also in this deck is Mana Drain really necessary? Getting double blue up seems a bit harder with this deck. Stifle also protects against opposing Wastelands after all. Perhap Negates instead?

If you are willing to take out the Null Rod then you can play with Fastbond + Zuran Orb + Barbarian Ring. Just a thought.

[meadbert]

Brainstorm was intentionally left out and Tolarian Winds is probably better.  Basically cards like Squee and Loam want to be in your yard rather than on the top of your library.

There are a ton of issues.  Crop Rotation and Drain do not play well together.  If you Crop Rotation for either Strip or Bazaar, then you are looking at Drain not coming on line till turn 4.

If Crop Rotation is dropped then the whole Bazaar/Squee engine becomes untenable since you end up with dead Squees in hand too often.
Although slow sometimes, there are times where you do not use Crop Rotation and then Drain is a turn 2 counter which is nice.  Also, while coming on line on turn 4 sounds bad, if you hope to win you expect the game will make it that long and you want something for defense on turn 4. 

I also tested Lorescale Coatl which suffers from the same problem only it cannot come on line till turn 5 if you use Cropper.  I have had some silly games where after playing Coatl, I got Squees back in hand, Tolarian Winds for 9 into Tolarian Winds for 8 and activated Bazaar  to make Coatl 21/21 on its first swing.  Although being randomly amazing like that, I think the 3cc mana cost is high.

[Harlequin]

Its definately an interesting idea.  I agree on a few points already brought up here:

-- Drain looks out of place amoung all the non-blue-producing lands.
-- 4 Bazaar, 4 Squee, 4 Winds, 4 LftL... that's a LOT of redundancy that can probably be crubed back without any real loss and realocated to other things.
-- You should probably run a maindeck creature of some sort (goyf/Lorescale)

Ok so we have a Standstill Shell - with drains, no MisDirrection.  But we might not be running the drains.   Also The deck I'm invissioning is going to be a bit more premanent based so lets axe the Chain of Vapors:

-4 Drains
-4 Chain of Vapors

+3 Misdirrection
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Intuition
+2 Repeal
+1 Echoing Truth

Ok Now to Prune out some of the "out of control" x4-ofs

-2 LftL (leaving 2 )
-3 Bazaar (leaving 1)
-4 Tolarian Winds
-4 Squee
-1 Crop Rotation (leaving 3)

+2 Brainstorm, Ponder
+2 Wasteland (up to 3)
+1 Library of Alexandria
+3 Sylvan Library
+3 Lorescale Cotyl
+3 Spell Snare / Stifle

The last thing that concerns me is the 10 colored sources.  That is  Extremely low!  I would highly suggest cutting back -2 Muta Vaults for +2 Islands.  Maybe even cutting back to 2 wastes to add another either island or even a basic forest.

By my count that leaves you with:

6 Fetches
4 Trops
2 Islands
4 Manlands
1 Strip
3 Wastes
1 Bazaar
1 LOA

4 Null Rod
3 Lorescale Cotyl

4 Standstill
3 Sylvan Library
3 Recall, Mystical, Timewalk
2 Brainstorm, Ponder
1 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Life From the Loam

4 Force
3 MisD
3 Spell Snare / Stifle
2 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth

[Mr. Fantastic]

Its definately an interesting idea.  I agree on a few points already brought up here:

-- Drain looks out of place amoung all the non-blue-producing lands.
-- 4 Bazaar, 4 Squee, 4 Winds, 4 LftL... that's a LOT of redundancy that can probably be crubed back without any real loss and realocated to other things.
-- You should probably run a maindeck creature of some sort (goyf/Lorescale)

Ok so we have a Standstill Shell - with drains, no MisDirrection.  But we might not be running the drains.   Also The deck I'm invissioning is going to be a bit more premanent based so lets axe the Chain of Vapors:

-4 Drains
-4 Chain of Vapors

+3 Misdirrection
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Intuition
+2 Repeal
+1 Echoing Truth

Ok Now to Prune out some of the "out of control" x4-ofs

-2 LftL (leaving 2 )
-3 Bazaar (leaving 1)
-4 Tolarian Winds
-4 Squee
-1 Crop Rotation (leaving 3)

+2 Brainstorm, Ponder
+2 Wasteland (up to 3)
+1 Library of Alexandria
+3 Sylvan Library
+3 Lorescale Cotyl
+3 Spell Snare / Stifle

The last thing that concerns me is the 10 colored sources.  That is  Extremely low!  I would highly suggest cutting back -2 Muta Vaults for +2 Islands.  Maybe even cutting back to 2 wastes to add another either island or even a basic forest.

By my count that leaves you with:

6 Fetches
4 Trops
2 Islands
4 Manlands
1 Strip
3 Wastes
1 Bazaar
1 LOA

4 Null Rod
3 Lorescale Cotyl

4 Standstill
3 Sylvan Library
3 Recall, Mystical, Timewalk
2 Brainstorm, Ponder
1 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Life From the Loam

4 Force
3 MisD
3 Spell Snare / Stifle
2 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth

I might keep an extra Bazaar.  Since you are going to get Stripped/Wastelanded constantly anyway, maybe it is not too bad to have a way to get the engine going post disruption?  Other than that, I like your ideas, especially the suggestion of Lorescale.

As far as sources of colored mana go, I know it might look terrible at a glance but Cephalid Coliseum produces colored mana and can also be sacked to some effect in conjunction with Life.  It's definitely better at least than the Odyssey cycling lands, no?

I've never been a fan of Tolarian Winds in anything other than threshold decks and it definitely doesn't go in a deck with Countermagic.  I definitely agree with cutting them and I especially love the addition of Sylvan.  Sylvan is too powerful to ignore and hey, since we're using a Life from the Loam engine, what about Trade Routes?  It even pitches to Force/Misdirection!  How about dropping an Intuition and something else for two Trades?  Or are they too slow?

This deck looks promising.

[Sean Ryan]

Going aggro control could be interesting.

Coatl and Goyf for your beatz with Daze replacing Drain seems like it could work.  You would be soft to combo, but could make it up in the board.   

[JudasKilled]

I dont understand the small grouping of people landstill obsessed...it doesnt win tournaments..... its to slow and 2 dependant on them not gaining the advantage......hence why it loses.....i dont get it, how is it good please explain it me?

[scifiantihero]

I dont understand the small grouping of people landstill obsessed...it doesnt win tournaments..... its to slow and 2 dependant on them not gaining the advantage......hence why it loses.....i dont get it, how is it good please explain it me?

I love landstill.  I played it for years.  It's not anywhere near a great deck in the current meta.  I will give you a condition under which it's good, though: plenty of other people at the tournament aren't playing great decks either (not everyone here gets to go to huge events!).

I will also give you a conditionsunder which it becomes good again:  The meta changes, and people are still testing the ideas because they love them so much, innovating, and discussing it on the forums created for that very purpose.