Cold Fish Advice

[ColinOscapi]

Hey, all. I'm new to vintage, and I played Cold Fish today at the Open today at Xtreme Games in Lindhurst. I went 2-4-1, if this information is at all relevant. The maindeck and sideboard were as follows:

4x Noble Heirarch
4x Quasali Pridemage
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Meddling Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Cold-Eyed Selkie
(23)

1x Time Walk
(24)

1x Ancestral Recall
2x Rebuild (Dodges Chalice at 2)
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
(35)

1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
4x Null Rod
(43)

3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
(60)

Sideboard

3x Swords to Plowshares (for mirror)
4x Children of Korlis (Combo/Ichorod hate)
2x Relic of Progenitus (Ichorid hate)
3x Trygon Predator (artifact hate)
3x Umezawa's Jitte (Because it's amazing.)
(15)


The one thing I noticed was that I lose to and Shop deck, unless I have nut openers. I always manage to take a game, but whatever they board in seems to have the nuts on me. My teammate and I were discussing Seeds of Innocence, but it's a matter of what I take out. I was thinking take out the Mindcensors, replace them with Trygon so I have a better game 1, and the Seeds will replace the Trygon slot in the SB, but I'm not sure if that is in any way the best way to optimize my Shop game. Any friendly advice?

-ColinOscapi

[the_lord_shaper]

    Few quick suggestions, add a Brainstorm and either mystical tutor or Merchant Scroll. Also be careful when it comes to jitte, any good aggro player who sees you using it should board back in all of their null rods. Also I would cut one mage and maybe a goyf to fit brainstorm and a tutor in. I would also add one echoing truth in place of a rebuild.

[ColinOscapi]

    Few quick suggestions, add a Brainstorm and either mystical tutor or Merchant Scroll. Also be careful when it comes to jitte, any good aggro player who sees you using it should board back in all of their null rods. Also I would cut one mage and maybe a goyf to fit brainstorm and a tutor in. I would also add one echoing truth in place of a rebuild.

Understand the Echoing Truth in place of a rebuild, and if I play Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor this makes it a lot easier to get my outs faster and more conveniently. The only thing I would think about now is what to replace Jitte with in the board if I don't think it'll be useful. More shop hate, maybe?

[mr.grim]

a few things.......
Have you thought about tinker/robot?
Life from the lome or crucibleof worlds?

I also agree you need a brainstorm/mystical. maybe even a ponder.
and you should drop a rebuild to sb in place of jitte as per lord shaper.

Also what are your thoughts about cannonist?

[ColinOscapi]

a few things.......
Have you thought about tinker/robot?
Life from the lome or crucibleof worlds?

I also agree you need a brainstorm/mystical. maybe even a ponder.
and you should drop a rebuild to sb in place of jitte as per lord shaper.

Also what are your thoughts about cannonist?

Tinker/Robot is a good suggestion, but I think it would take out too many cards for the deck to be consistent. However, I will test it out.

Loam would be interesting, but I do not have any spells I can play out of the yard. It's Fish, not Ichorid. Crucible seems like a better choice if any. It will help my incredibly shit mana base, as well as possibility for Strip_Lock.

Canonist. It seems like good board for a Fish mirror. It gets raped by Shop. Ichorid, for the most part, doesn't give a shit. It however kills Combo. Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

[mr.grim]

for stax...... energy flux/ aura of silence might work for you in the brd.
tink/bot you could cut a meddling mage and a pridemage.
life from the loam will help you get your strip effects back, i was a bit lost as to what you ment?!

[Caselogik]

Have you thought about moving Pride to SB? I think you could fit in a few tutors in place of the Pride's. I don't think you need 2 creature sets with exalted, and if it isn't prides, I would probably move Heirarch to SB or remove them all together.

[Jori]

Have you thought about moving Pride to SB? I think you could fit in a few tutors in place of the Pride's. I don't think you need 2 creature sets with exalted, and if it isn't prides, I would probably move Heirarch to SB or remove them all together.

Exalted allows Selkie to shine, really.

Noble accelerates mana..

Pridemage gets rid of artifacts that need to be gotten rid of.

[Caselogik]

I understand what each card does, but I think that the 4 spots dedicated to Noble Heirarch could be spent on better cards.

[Harlequin]

I understand what each card does, but I think that the 4 spots dedicated to Noble Heirarch could be spent on better cards.

As I've said before, If you want to cut heirarch you HAVE to add at least 2 more lands or other mana sources.  You can't play fish with 16 lands + 3 mox + lotus.  Its just not enought support.  There's "Understanding what -each- card does" and then there's Understanding the deck as a whole.  While I can't contest the former, I think suggesting cutting Heirarch supports that you don't really have a good grasp on the later.

For those really interested in the deck I would suggest this thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37264.0

Its a REALLY long read.  But if you want to skip over the history of the deck, you can probably get through page 1 then jumpt to page 4.  It covers many of the same concerns that are being brought up here. 

[Rome]

Im a Noble Fish player myself and I broke this all down on the other thread in the other forum of vintage section. Ill give cliff notes here however

day 1 -
5-2 (loosing round 7 bc of BULLSHIT standings for 3 min)
day 2 -
5-2 (missed top)

Stax
Serenity - stops em dead great board card also adds that ench spot to the goyf
Pithing needle - Stops soooo much bad stuff welder etc
T preds - nothing more needs to be said
pridemage - good yes but i dont run them i find that its a card you eather run or you dont the noble is plenty
Drains - I run 4 drains in my build as well as more answer
Kataki - your workshop sure cant pay for that can it?

As it comes to the build overall there isnt anything wrong with your pure build. I dont like running the scroll/tutor yeah it helps give you your answers later but i also said that in a well built fish you already should have the answers comming or that when it comes to boarding these start to question you on boarding out.

our worst match up is stax its true the best thing i seen board wise has been kataki needle and serenity and it pretty much stops it dead in its tracks then.

check my other post and youll see more of my breakdown can always pm me and we can speak more 1on1 about it if you like as well

[Rome]

I understand what each card does, but I think that the 4 spots dedicated to Noble Heirarch could be spent on better cards.

As I've said before, If you want to cut heirarch you HAVE to add at least 2 more lands or other mana sources.  You can't play fish with 16 lands + 3 mox + lotus.  Its just not enought support.  There's "Understanding what -each- card does" and then there's Understanding the deck as a whole.  While I can't contest the former, I think suggesting cutting Heirarch supports that you don't really have a good grasp on the later.

For those really interested in the deck I would suggest this thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37264.0

Its a REALLY long read.  But if you want to skip over the history of the deck, you can probably get through page 1 then jumpt to page 4.  It covers many of the same concerns that are being brought up here. 

You are very wrong on this post fish does not get land screwed most fish land base consist of such
3 pitch
2 pitch
3 dual
3 dual
3-4 waste 3 in my case
1 strip
1 island
and in my case 1 LoA

Fish does not need 5 mana to be effective 2 mana and your good all day. Ive tested this deck and know first hand i didnt have a game all day when i drew even a late noble that i said man i wish you were a land.

[Harlequin]

Again I disagree.  17 lands in your build, and what I assume is 4 artifact mana?  That's 21 which is the bear minimum of what I consider playable.  I draw a really fine line between 17 mana + 4 strip/waste and 16 mana + 5 strip/waste.  The first -can- work, the 2nd I wouldn't run.  I would also only run 21 lands if I had both Ponder and Brainstorm.

Fish, especailly Selkie-Fish can't really "live" for long on "2 mana."  You really need 3 mana.  3 colored Mana lets you cast a 2cc threat while keeping up stifle.  2 colored mana + Wasteland is great while 1 colored + 1 wasteland is really shakey.  Also something like Land Mox -> Null rod is a great opener... when you have that 2nd mana on its way next turn. 

In all of these examples Hierrarch is very strong as a turn 1 or 2 play as your "2nd" colored mana.  But if you don't run hierrarch, you cant just run non-mana in his place, and hope you draw 3 mana producers all the time.

[JudasKilled]

fish  noble,runs fine on 21 mana consider hierarch 4 more mana sources really, it will screw u occasionally but not much

and pridemage and hierarch in that deck r not touchable.....pridemage is a beast....fucking amasing

stax it rapes, tezz its a kill t vault , against mirrors u have it and they dont yer goyfs win......pumps selkie....itas just retarded good without selkie , against drege gets rid of leyline and sacs for bridges......awesome