TheManaDrain.com
October 26, 2025, 06:09:13 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: The New Ichorid Thread!  (Read 6099 times)
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« on: July 21, 2009, 11:49:48 pm »

Whoever made the 1st Ichorid thread is slacking, so its time for me to remake it. First off, if anyone has any questions about playing the deck, feel free to ask. Anyways, it seems like Ichorid has fallen off the planet or something, being nobody plays it anymore, from what ive seen in tournament reports and research, but it should be still very alive. Very few people have been playing this deck lately, and i think its time to basically bring it back.

i was recently in a tournament, rather small one, and i was the only player playing Ichorid, and i placed 1st. heres my decklist, and suggestion would help:

Lands

4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Dryad Arbor

Creatures

4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Narcomoeba
1x Sundering Titan
2x Cephalid Sage
2x Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells

3x Chalice of the Void
4x Bridge from Below
4x Dread Return
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Serum Powder
4x Leyline
4x Unmask

Sideboard

4x Contagion
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Reverent Silence
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Emerald Charm


I understand there are many different ways to play this deck, but after much play testing and research, this seems to be the best list, for me that is. i would like something to compare it too, so please post your lists as well
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
A_Outcast
Basic User
**
Posts: 126


AOutcastedkid morphreader2true
View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 01:25:50 am »

i love ichorid, but then again i lvoe annoying people and ichorid does just that

4x bazaar of baghdad
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x lions eye diamond
2x petrified field
1x dakmore salvage
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass



4x golgari grave troll
4x stinkweed imp
2x sadistic hyponotist
4x narcomoeba
2x ichorid
2x fatestitches
1x eternal witness
1x flame-kin zealot
2x cephalid sage
1x realm razor

4x bridges from below
1x breakthrough
4x careful study
4x cabal therapy
3x dread return
1x chain of vapor
Logged

Jori
Basic User
**
Posts: 28


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 06:00:46 am »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.
Logged
Explosion
Basic User
**
Posts: 28


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 09:08:10 am »

While both abuse the dredge mechanic and the interaction with Bazaar of Baghdad, there are 2 distinct styles of Ichorid. It's going to be tough to compare decklists if one person lists a "manaless" build and the very next one is a mana-Ichorid build with Breakthrough.

If this is going to be a comprehensive look at building Dredge, we should break down our decklists by the roles the cards play, rather than what type of card they are.

My current list (still testing a bit, sideboard is shaky):

Mulligan:
4x Serum Powder

Mana:
4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine

Dredge Engine:
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
2x Fatestitcher
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Disruption:
1x Darkblast (doubles as dredge)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Unmask
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Chalice of the Void

Dudes/Win Cons:
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
2x Dread Return
2x Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
2x Emerald Charm
3x Contagion
4x Chain of Vapor
2x Pithing Needle
2x Oxidize
2x Ancient Grudge

My build is mostly "manaless," with the rainbow lands in for Fatestitcher and sideboard cards. My store's metagame has a few more Yixlid Jailers running around than Leylines, so the Charms are lower, and Contagion is a champ. I might even bump to 1/4, but I don't want to change the artifact hate or Needles, and Chain of Vapor is pretty much a catch-all.

i love ichorid, but then again i lvoe annoying people and ichorid does just that

Ichorid is a legitimate deck that can win tournaments. It's not just an annoying "draw out the match" deck like Turbo-Fog in standard. If you love annoying people, that's a problem you need to deal with, but the whole "Ichorid is annoying" is a strange trope. I don't see why it's any more annoying than Vault/Key packed with 16 counterspells and tons of draw, or lockdown like Stax. It could be a bit of elitism as people don't like having their multi-thousand-dollar decks beaten by a pile that costs under $200 aside from 4-proxy Bazaars.
Logged
Caselogik
Basic User
**
Posts: 25


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 09:17:58 am »

I run:
Main Deck
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Darkblast
1 Angel of Depair
1 Reveillark
Land
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field

Sideboard
2 Contagion
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Emerald Charm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Oxidize
1 Root Maze

I can pilot this pretty well. I think a future build would include +2 Unmask, -1 darkblast and maybe -1 Reviliark.

However, I do like this build over the dryad arbor build because I feel like I have more answers main deck and post G1. Especially siding in almost always 8-13 cards G2 and 3.
 

 

 

 

 

 
Logged

unrestrict: Library of Alexandria, Ponder and Burning Wish
Vintage and Trade Moderator - Mtgsalvation
Doomsday
Basic User
**
Posts: 167



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 09:47:46 am »

Mine is:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
2 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Serum Powder
2 Dread Return

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Platinum Angel
3 Ray of Revelation
4 Riftstone Portal

Definitely need help with the sideboard, Ray of Revelation doesn't work like I imagined it would.  It needs to already be in the graveyard to be stop Leyline unless on the off chance I have 2 lands out. 
Logged

Unrestrict: Burning Wish, Ponder, Flash, Gush
Jori
Basic User
**
Posts: 28


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 10:30:20 am »

Mine is:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Shambling Shell
2 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Serum Powder
2 Dread Return

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field

SB:
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Platinum Angel
3 Ray of Revelation
4 Riftstone Portal

Definitely need help with the sideboard, Ray of Revelation doesn't work like I imagined it would.  It needs to already be in the graveyard to be stop Leyline unless on the off chance I have 2 lands out. 

Use Wispmere in its place.  W evoke cost:Destroy target enchantment.
Logged
marriedwithchildren
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 10:37:53 am »

Anyways, it seems like Ichorid has fallen off the planet or something, being nobody plays it anymore, from what ive seen in tournament reports and research, but it should be still very alive. Very few people have been playing this deck lately, and i think its time to basically bring it back.


Ichorid is very much alive.  There's just ALOT of hate in peoples sideboard.  I love playing Ichorid and game 1 I'm almost for sure a win. 
Logged
voltron00x
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1640


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 10:54:27 am »

Menendian and I wrote articles about Ichorid over the past few months, although we came to some different conclusions regarding an optimal list.  I think the deck is very much alive, but its success is and always will be cyclical - it is similar to Affinity in Extended in that respect.  A prepared field is very difficult to beat, while an unprepared field is a cakewalk. 

The rote and mechanical nature of the deck turns off people who want to win by "outplaying" their opponents, and in that same vein they will show disdain toward players who run Ichorid, often assuming they are incapable of winning by playing a deck like Tezzeret or Stax that is more difficult to pilot.  While this is sometimes correct, sometimes Ichorid is just the "right" choice - the Vintage list's power level is absolutely insane, in my opinion.

The list I discussed in my tournament report / Ichorid article was similar to the one I just posted in my article last week.  I don't run MD Leyline (which I feel isn't needed) nor do I use Arbor or Petrfied Field.  That list is tuned for consistency, namely trying to get a 2nd-turn Hypnotist to resolve and effectively "end" the game.  The SB is built for flexibility given the popularity of Needles and Jailer as the SB options of choice for Tezz of late (at least in my meta).

Given an influx of Shop decks, it seems worthwhile to run Needle in the board again (I wasn't running it, choosing Chewers, Contagion, Darkblast, and COV instead, as again I was more concerned with Jailer and Needle), and possibly even Petrified Field main depending on Shop's % of the field.
Logged

“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.”

Team East Coast Wins
Adan
Basic User
**
Posts: 169


explosive.

310021871 adan@mifeng.de adantheone
View Profile
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 04:04:29 pm »

This thread somehow blows because we already have like infinite lists, the majority of them being suboptimal.

As voltron00x mentioned, Smmennen has wrote an article about Ichorid some time before and has counted the cards played by 38 Ichorid builds and how many copies of them are played in each build. And I believe he averaged every card and concluded with a composite build (I am really not sure whether I am allowed to leak the list as he really put some effort into it and because it's premium and blah).

I'll post "my" lists for that I can explain why I find them to be optimal. The builds look similar to each other, the only difference is that one is running Petrified Fields and the other doesn't.
I haven't been creative by my own, I used to netdeck my buddies' lists (credits go to Fabian Moyschewitz and Patric Hiness):

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1085

I'm the guy on Place 5 (as seen in Tobi's report from Darmstadt here).

I lost the first game against MUD because game 3 was insane:

My opening hand was (after Mull to 6): Leyline, Leyline, Chalice, Unmask, Bazaar, GGT. I put 1 Leyline into play, Unmask him, play Chalice and Bazaar into GGt, Imp and something I can't remember.
However, when I unmasked him, he revealed: Karn, Mox Emerald, Sol Ring, Pithing Needle, Relic, Relic, Relic. I took his Sol Ring and disabled the Mox with Chalice, leaving him with 0 Mana. But he topdecked a Workshop which sealed the game. -.-

But after that 0-1, I ended 4-1, being 1st after the Swiss rounds, then sucked out in the quarterfinals against the Ichorid Mirror in a very unfortunate way (he decided to remove our Leylines with CoV at EOT and then dredged a Grave Troll in his turn which milled 4 (!!!) Bridges into his grave. He recurrs 2 Ichorids, attacks and gets 8 tokens for that. I hit nothing and lose).

Anyway, the build is also pretty close to what Smmennen concluded in.

Wincons: 4 Ichorids, 4 Moebas, 4 Bridges.

Should be obvious. Ichorids are the main gameplan against decks like MUD. That's why you need 4 so hat you can dredge into some of them early. MUD is going to Wasteland' your Bazaar which might slow you down. If they can throw Trisks and Ravagers afterwards, you're in trouble. Moebas and Bridges don't need any explanation I guess.

12 Dredgers are default, the 2 Darkblasts are meant to be additional Dredgers and to make space in the SB. In any case you should have at least 3 outs for Jailer somewhere in your 75. People usually run 1 Darkblast main and 2 Contagions in the SB, but in this case it's 3 Darkblast total divided 2/1 within MD/SB. This can be chnged after personal preferences, but you really have to have at least 3 definite outs for Jailer postboard. You might as well play 0/3, 2/1, 1/2 or 0/3. Depends on the space you have in (or want for) the SB.

The disruption shell:

4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Chalice, 4 Leylines, 4 Unmask:

You always want Chalice, especially when you're on the play (powered by Captain Obvious!). Against some decks you want Leylines because something like Mogg Fanatic (random Aggro, Zoo, Gobs, Burn and other shenanigans) or Arcbound Ravager (MUD) might ruin your day. And it also disables combo's Yawgmoth's Will and thus spares your nerves for that the opponent can't topdeck-win with it.

Speaking of combo, you don't want them to go off by any means, that's why 4 Unmask and 4 Cabal Therapy are a must. But seriously, post TfK-restriction, I'm not quite sure whether you can go down to 3 Therapies. I used to announce TfK as default-target, but now that it is restricted, the drawengines of decks shift back towards Dark Confidants and Tops against which Cabal Therapy can't do really much. But I'd remain to play 4 of all the cards metioned above.

Dread Return targets:

3 Dread Returns are for a early and consistent kill. 2 are under and 4 are overkill. That's why 3 seem to be optimal.

Targets I run:

Flame-Kin Zealots are the most popular DR targets and in combination with 2 or more Bridges, it ends the game immediately.

Angel of Despair is a emergency card that is there when something awful happens. Some prople play Woodfall Primus, but both of them are not needed very often, but due to this fact, Angel is in compairison to the Primus the superior card as it's black and can be pitched into Ichorids. You're not doing anything wrong when running Angel.

DR-targets other people run:

Sadistic Hypnotist: I don't see why some people have such a great sympathy for it. And I guess starting a debate about it is like starting a debate about abortion: Some are for it, some are against it. I have organized myself a playset and might test them, but I really can't make a judgement on that card yet, but I see a potential because it might solve the problem of the drawengine-shift mentioned above.

Woodfall Primus: I only needed the Vindicate effect once, that's why I usually pitch Angel into Ichorid. But it's naughty to DR Angel Turn 2 to get a Time Walk when destroying the land of the opponent with Chalice 0 on the table. Woodfall Primus can't be pitched and therefore is "deader" than Angel.

Sundering Titan: Don't understand that. Ichorid usually wins on Turn 4 at the latest (if you have Bazaar and Dredgers consistently obv.). He will most likely wreck 1 or 2 lands, that is when you can manage to DR him very early. Angel can destroy lands as well, so I don't see Titan's advantage here (except that he's a faster clock maybe).

Duplicant: A out against Darksteel Colossus. I still believe you can just race that fattie, especially with 3 DR and 2 FKZ. He got dismissed from the deck because Inkwell Leviathan and soemtimes Tinker for Time Vault changed this circumstance. Duplicant may be out-dated. On a sidenote, Dread Return onto Stinkweed Imp is a nice way to handle Inkwell as a threat.

Cephalid Sage: Somewhat the proxy-FKZ. You DR, DR resolves, you win. He simply does explosive shit when he come sinto play. You can play him if you want, a 1/1 split is also plausible, but it increases the risk of disabling the DR-kill when you have to remove the FKZ at the beginning of the game with Serum Powder. That's why I stick to 2 FKZs still.

River Kelpie: I have just seen this thing going nuts in combination with Fatestitchers, but that's quite inconsistent. You are also reliant on flashbacking Therpies and so on. But he actually does what Sage does and thus I see no reason why you should not play the more consistent choice (i.e.) Sage.

Reveillark: Seen this one in a Top8 from the Philippines. It's against random Aggro shit that easily remove your Bridges. DRfor Reveillark, DR for FKZ (saccing Lark) and return 2 huge, fat Grave Trolls with Haste. Most Aggrodecks just bend over to them. But I guess in a more competitive meta you will never be in a situation where you really want 2 Trolls with Haste, especially when Leylines can protect your Bridges in these MUs.

Borgardan Hellkite: It makes no sense to me. I got beaten by it in the Ichorid mirror in Annecy, but it really makes no sense to me. I don't know what this is good for.

Magma Giant: Saw this in a Top8 from Italy. Bashes random Aggro shit I guess. But see Reveillark.

But I don't have any sympathy for all these cards as FKZ is still the only card that follows the gameplan straight: Brute force into the opponents face for the win!

All the other cards have more of a disruptive aspect and that's rather win-more as you are already running a fuckload of disruption. Running these cards would mean that you are converting Dread Return to another disruption spell. But with FKZ, it's more like Tinker. It resolves and you win.

The last point are the Cities: They are in there instead of Dryads because of the SB. Playing 5color manabases gives you very flexible SB-possibilities. Like Chain of Vapor which can also be used to handle Jailers, Leylines and in rare occasions creatures.

Ancient Grudges are very proactive against GY-hate and Needles, as well as Time Vaults or EEs. Very very flexible card, but I'll try a ix of Grudges and Ingot Chewers because MUD's Thorns can be annoying like hell from time to time.

Wispmare over Emerald Charm: Just in case a opponent might play Leylines and then play Chalice 1, you'd be fucked with Emerald Charms. With Wispmare, you're not. Even if he throws some Thorns. And both WIspmare and Ingot Chewer spwan tokens when you have Bridges which is really nice for only 1 Mana.

Gemstone Mines: You need more mana to efficiently support the hate-hate from the SB.

But summarized, this allows you to be as broken as Manaless Ichorid preboard and as consistent as Mana Ichorid postboard (I believe Mana Ichorid has to toss Breakthrough postboard anyway as they can't afford to go the all-in way as a Relic or a Crypt might screw them).

The other build with the Fields I mentioned before looks similar to "my" build, except that the DR-package got watered down as well as the Darkblasts:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1091 (on a sidenote, these 3 Ichorid people are said to be the best 3 Ichorid players of Italy. But Kanit Mustapha doesn't own a single card of Ichorid by himself, that might explain why his build looks rather strange.)

Fields make the matchup against everything with Wastes a bit better and it can also accelerate you when facing combo:

1st Turn Bazaar, 2nd Turn Field, 3rd Turn sac Field, refetch a 2nd Bazaar, find the FKZ and go insane.

They also give you a slight advantage in the Ichorid mirror as you will most likely find the lands earlier and can also cast Stinkweed Imps.

The Strip Mine is kinda winmore, but it can be a Time Walk when you are on the play, land a Chalice 0 and then kill the opponent's land on Turn 2. Sounds utopic, but I can imagine it to be funny to see your opponent go on tilt after that.

I hope I could give you some impressions, although I am still a newbie to Ichorid and have only few experience with Ichorid (only 2 tourneys yet, 0-3 at Annecy after not being prepared, 4-1 at Darmstadt after plowing through a lot of theory-stuff after the frustating suck-out at Annecy).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 04:09:51 pm by Adan » Logged
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 06:43:50 pm »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
Jori
Basic User
**
Posts: 28


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 07:34:46 pm »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you

Well..  Dread Return, kelpie, dredge.  Cabal Therapy kelpie, dredge 3 times.

I beleive Kelpie is just more consistant TBH
Logged
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 08:22:28 pm »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you

Well..  Dread Return, kelpie, dredge.  Cabal Therapy kelpie, dredge 3 times.

I beleive Kelpie is just more consistant TBH

it might just be a matter or preference....

what if its early in the game, and you only have a dread return and a few creatures, Sage would be optimal
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
Darkenslight
Basic User
**
Posts: 314


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 05:46:50 am »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you

Not quite; Kelpie does need support, yes, but the support is already there.  Return Ichorid?  Dredge.  Is that a Dread return?  Dredge.  You putting a Narc into play?  Dredge.  This is something that Sage can't really do.  The only advantage Sage has, IMO, is that you can discard more dredgers after you draw.
Logged
Elfrago
Basic User
**
Posts: 54


View Profile Email
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 05:57:15 am »

This thread somehow blows because we already have like infinite lists, the majority of them being suboptimal.


This. And the old tread was good enough.

If that's your view, the better course is to just not post in the thread.  -DA
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:48:44 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged
voltron00x
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1640


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 09:20:18 am »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you

Not quite; Kelpie does need support, yes, but the support is already there.  Return Ichorid?  Dredge.  Is that a Dread return?  Dredge.  You putting a Narc into play?  Dredge.  This is something that Sage can't really do.  The only advantage Sage has, IMO, is that you can discard more dredgers after you draw.

Sage also has the advantage of being somewhat safer.  While the built-in support for Kelpie is already there, that doesn't account for the times your Dredges have been unusual and failed to provide you with that support.  However, I have found Kelpie, on average, to at least immediately Dredge as well as Sage and sometimes it has dredged out my entire deck immediately on its own.  Untapping with Kelpie in play usually means you win - you can spread him out over 2 turns, unlike Sage.

I play with Kelpie in my Legacy deck, and run neither in my Vintage list.

Logged

“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.”

Team East Coast Wins
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 03:47:58 pm »

This thread somehow blows because we already have like infinite lists, the majority of them being suboptimal.


This. And the old tread was good enough.

you guys are acting like little kids. Just leave the thread for people who want to actually talk about the deck, and not critisim by you dudes acting like little 8 year old girls who cant even wipe their own asses.

and what do you define as "suboptimal", play Magic, and stop thinking youre the best...people play what they want to, wtf is "suboptimal" if it wins

Full Warning for violation of Rule III, Inflammatory Posting.  -DA
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:43:54 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 03:50:34 pm »

A friend of mine plays River Kelpie instead of Cephalid Sage, and i beleive you should try him as well.  I think in the end the extra draw the kelpie effectively provides is worth it.

Cephalid sage > River Kelpie

reason being, why do you want to sac more creatures to draw, when you would have less Bridges in your yard, giving you less tokens, and Sage prepares it for you

Not quite; Kelpie does need support, yes, but the support is already there.  Return Ichorid?  Dredge.  Is that a Dread return?  Dredge.  You putting a Narc into play?  Dredge.  This is something that Sage can't really do.  The only advantage Sage has, IMO, is that you can discard more dredgers after you draw.

Sage also has the advantage of being somewhat safer.  While the built-in support for Kelpie is already there, that doesn't account for the times your Dredges have been unusual and failed to provide you with that support.  However, I have found Kelpie, on average, to at least immediately Dredge as well as Sage and sometimes it has dredged out my entire deck immediately on its own.  Untapping with Kelpie in play usually means you win - you can spread him out over 2 turns, unlike Sage.

I play with Kelpie in my Legacy deck, and run neither in my Vintage list.

thats exactly what i was thinking, in terms of wierd dreges..like random compiled crap instead of something benefitting
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
The Atog Lord
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 3451


The+Atog+Lord
View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 04:20:39 pm »

This thread is starting to get out of hand. Stop the name-calling. If you don't like the thread, then don't post in it. If you do want to post in this thread, make it a mature post and not a flame.

Rich
Logged

The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2009, 09:48:50 am »

This thread is starting to get out of hand. Stop the name-calling. If you don't like the thread, then don't post in it. If you do want to post in this thread, make it a mature post and not a flame.

Rich


got it, but i do not like ignorance...
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
Caselogik
Basic User
**
Posts: 25


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2009, 10:03:25 am »

got it, but i do not like ignorance...

It's not ignorance. You can win a tournament with a sub-optimal deck. You can win with an optimal deck. Regardless, he was stating that some of the Ichorid posts are using lists are not as efficient or lack particular cards to survive in the current meta. There may be preference, but there is also the meta game to shape decisions for what's in and what's out.
Logged

unrestrict: Library of Alexandria, Ponder and Burning Wish
Vintage and Trade Moderator - Mtgsalvation
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2009, 10:21:19 am »

got it, but i do not like ignorance...

It's not ignorance. You can win a tournament with a sub-optimal deck. You can win with an optimal deck. Regardless, he was stating that some of the Ichorid posts are using lists are not as efficient or lack particular cards to survive in the current meta. There may be preference, but there is also the meta game to shape decisions for what's in and what's out.

bro, listen, nothing is "sub-optimal". Do i have to post my entire meta game for you? no, i do not, so i play based on what is around me, so in that case, no deck would be suboptimal. Contribute to the thread, and stop talking out of your ass trying to defend this guy

Flaming and ignoring moderation instructions are not acceptable conduct.  See prior post.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:45:51 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
ConF1ictZ
Basic User
**
Posts: 39


Conf1ictz
View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2009, 10:24:52 am »

im done with this arguing. please stick to the thread's purpose
Logged

"Practice is work, games are fun" - Glenn Frontera

Team Metal Slug
voltron00x
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1640


View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2009, 12:27:17 pm »

It's almost like I can feel this thread working to undo any attempt I've made to give Ichorid legitimacy as a serious contender in Vintage.

How do you define suboptimal?

I look at the results of the Waterbury in March, Princeton in April, Blue Bell in May, Philly Open 3 in May, Dan Herd in June, and Blue Bell in June and see definite suggestions and trends as far as what list might be optimal for the meta in the northeast. 

Someone playing in a meta in California, or the Midwest, or Europe, may see different trends and reach different conclusions.  We can discuss these differences and make our point like adults.  This is called a "debate" and would actually be constructive for people considering playing Ichorid at this summer's larger events...

Logged

“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.”

Team East Coast Wins
Phoenix888
Basic User
**
Posts: 48


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2009, 08:07:37 am »

It's almost like I can feel this thread working to undo any attempt I've made to give Ichorid legitimacy as a serious contender in Vintage.
I believe the fact that this thread got moved to the Improvement section while threads about Hermit Blaster (seriously, Hermit Blaster???) remain in the Open section should tell you all you need to know.
Logged
voltron00x
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1640


View Profile WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2009, 10:56:23 am »

It's almost like I can feel this thread working to undo any attempt I've made to give Ichorid legitimacy as a serious contender in Vintage.
I believe the fact that this thread got moved to the Improvement section while threads about Hermit Blaster (seriously, Hermit Blaster???) remain in the Open section should tell you all you need to know.

I don't know whether to laugh, or cry.

Or just start playing Hermit Blaster.

Your posts are generally much better than this; please make more of an effort to keep them at a higher level of quality.  -DA
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:49:35 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

“Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.”

Team East Coast Wins
Adan
Basic User
**
Posts: 169


explosive.

310021871 adan@mifeng.de adantheone
View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2009, 04:31:25 pm »

got it, but i do not like ignorance...

It's not ignorance. You can win a tournament with a sub-optimal deck. You can win with an optimal deck. Regardless, he was stating that some of the Ichorid posts are using lists are not as efficient or lack particular cards to survive in the current meta. There may be preference, but there is also the meta game to shape decisions for what's in and what's out.

bro, listen, nothing is "sub-optimal". Do i have to post my entire meta game for you? no, i do not, so i play based on what is around me, so in that case, no deck would be suboptimal. Contribute to the thread, and stop talking out of your ass trying to defend this guy

Then there is no reason for us to give you any advice about this deck and what you can do better.

Seriously, flaming me this way reveals that you haven't read any further but the first sentence of my post. Now please think again who's ignorant.
I was saying that most of the lists are suboptimal because they run cards that don't have any specific purpose other than being win-more or they run strange amounts of cards that are irrational against several matchups.
You won't tell me that running 3 Leylines is good, won't you? It's either 4 or none, depending on the metagame:
If you need Leylines to hose MUD, random Aggro, Combo and to a degree Oath, play 4 for that the odds to have one in the opening hand are maximized.
And if you don't need them, just don't play them.

What I was criticizing was that most of the lists before are not maximizing their odds to have a certain piece of disruption.
And maximizing the amount of disruption is essential, no matter how the meta looks like because the disruption shell is what makes Ichorid so consistent.

And if you are spending 3 posts to compare Kelpie to Sage, you might as well take a look at my post again where I have written my experiences/observations about several cards that can be played, but actually shouldn't.
And I also don't see in which way I failed to follow this discussion, you wanted lists and opinions, there you got my list altogether with my opinion about certain builds and cardchoices, so what's wrong with it?

On a sidebote, I piloted my list from Darmstadt to a 3-0-1 at a small Vintage tournament (ID with my buddy Fabian who was playing MUD after we both were at 3-0). In the Top8 playoffs, we both plowed through it and met each other in the finals where I knocked him out, taking 1st place and winning a set of DCI Meddling Mages).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 04:49:20 pm by Adan » Logged
Demonic Attorney
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 2312

ravingderelict17
View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2009, 05:47:23 pm »

How do you define suboptimal?

This thread.  Discussion over, warnings to follow.  You people were told in no uncertain terms to stop the back-and-forth bickering.  Ignoring moderation is not looked upon with favor on this site.
Logged

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.065 seconds with 21 queries.