Tournament Entrance Fees

[Demonic Attorney]

For some time now, I've wondered if a shift in Tournament Organizer practices has affected turnout for Vintage tournaments, especially in New England.  I post this poll to ask players what entrance fee they most prefer.  Do people like small fees and modest payouts?  The current $25 standard plus relatively higher payouts?  Or the burgeoning trend towards $30+ fees?

To provide some background information, I'll recapitulate the history of Vintage in New England as I remember it, in terms of entrance fees and prize payouts.  For those not interested in thie history lesson, skip to the bottom for extra questions to the community.

In summer 2005 the standard for tournament entrance fees was predominantly $15.00.  Some examples of tournaments held under this standard are:
 
1.  The Beanie Exchange in Springfield offered a guaranteed prize structure including a Mox Jet, English Mana Drain, 1/2 box, 1/2 box, and 4 packs through the Top 8 for $15.  

2.  Around that same time, Mykeatog in Auburn, Mass. offered a  sliding scale prize structure that, for 28 people, offered a Mox, a Berserk, and premium foils to 3rd and 4th.  This scale was repeatedly successful for him.  

3.  Your Move Games in Providence, RI offered a guaranteed Timetwister for $15, and an Alpa Mox at 20 attendees or more.  This was a common model for YMG's events.

4.  Kowal's Hadley tournaments were one of the only deviations from the $15 standard.  They deviated downwards, offering a Mox Sapphire for $10.  The community reaffirmed its appreciation for lower entrance fees later that year when a poll was conducted.

5.  Double Midnight Comics in New Hampshire offered a Mox Sapphire and Mana Drain for $20 during this era, which was unusual.  Their later events increased their fee to $25, again ahead of community trends.

6.  Myriad Games offered a Mox and a Mana Drain for $20, slightly ahead of community norms.

7.  Centerville Games offered non-guaranteed, sliding scale cash prizes for an entrance fee of $10.

8.  Hammer's Comics offered a guaranteed Bazaar of Baghdad plus 5 dual lands spread among the Top 4, and a sliding prize structure that increased with attendance.

9.  Samite Healer offered a guaranteed Mox, Twister, English Mana Drain, Italian Mana Drain, and premium cards to his Top 8.  His fee was $15.

10.  Andystok offered a guaranteed Mox plus "TBD" prize support to the other high finishers for $15.
  
Later on in early 2006, entrance fees, by and large, increased to $20.  For example:

1.  The Beanie Exchange in Springfield offered a Time Walk, a Mana Drain, 1/2 box, 1/2 box, and 5 boosters through the top 8.  The same TO offered similar prizes for $20 that included a Mox.  

2.  Even this late in the game, YMG's entrance fees remained at $15, for the same prize structure in 2005, though YMG was in the minority by then.  

3.  ELD's early tournaments followed the $20 model.

4.  Myriad Games offered a guaranteed Mox (at 24 players) plus a sliding scale based on attendance for $20.

5.  The Hadley Events, then organized by Ray, offered a sliding scale for $20, including a Library of Alexandria, blue duals, and packs.

6.  Around this time, SCG Power 9 tournaments were well underway, with their famed $30 entrance fees for a full set of power drafted by the winners.

By 2007, the scene had started to trend upwards again, to $25 tournaments.  

1.  Myriad Games charged $25 for a Mox and $250 store credit spread among the remainder of the Top 8, conditioned on 28 attendees.

2.  ELD's events began 2007 at $20 for a guaranteed Mox and a sliding prize scale, but soon increased to $25.00.

3.  Hadley events initially remained at $15 entry for a sliding scale that allowed for a Library, 4x FOW, 3 duals, and 5 packs to the t8 for 20 attendees.  Subsequent events went up to $20 but offered a bigger prize payout, including a Mox and a Drain guaranteed for 20 attendees.  Even in that case, Hadley maintained its tradition of charging less than the prevailing fee for its events and paid out truly impressive prizes.

I'll refer to 2008/2009 as the contemporary era in Vintage prize structures.  The entrance fees, for the most part, remained at $25, but the prize support underwent some revisions.

1.  By 2008, Myriad Games' prize payouts became entirely store credit.  

2.  ELD's entry fee and prize payout remained more or less consistent, though he did conduct his first Lotus event for $40 and enhanced prize structure.

3.  Pandemonium Games began holding events for $25.  An example of their prize payout includes an Ancestral and store credit.

4.  BatterUp Comics holds events for $25 that include, on a guaranteed basis, $400 cash, 4x Force, 2 blue duals, and premium cards to the top 8.  

5.  Hadley, now with another TO, returns with $10 entrance fees, attracting 22 people on his first outing for a Grim Tutor plus other support.  His $10 entrance fee model looks to be here to stay, now featuring a sliding scale payout which, for 25 players, includes: 2x Foil Welder, 2x blue dual, and premium cards to the top 8.

And that brings us to today, with a few significant changes to the status quo.  

1.  BatterUp comics has returned to the scene, with a $25 entry fee for a Mox Sapphire, English Mana Drain, 2 duals, and premium cards to the top 8.

2.  Myriad Games has increased its entrance fees to $30 and $50, respective to different months, for an increased prize payout, still entirely in store credit.



So as you can see, Vintage has underwent some significant changes over the previous 4 years in terms of entrance fees, prize payouts, and the form of prizes given.  I reiterate my question to the community:  What level of entrance fee are you most comfortable with?  Further questions include:

Is there a cutoff at which you would no longer consider going to an event because its entrance fee is too high?  If so, what is it?  Is there a point where prize support becomes too low to consider an event worth the time invested?  Of the examples provided above, which are your favorites?  What other feedback would you give to TO's today?  Are there any other specific ways you'd like the scene to change?  Please post your thoughts after voting in the poll.

** Note to Tournament Organizers.  This is intended to be a player feedback thread, not a platform for arguments between players and TO's.  I've spoken to many Vintage players lately who have a wide variety of thoughts on where the format is right now; I think TO's will benefit from hearing that.  

If you don't agree with what's said, feel absolutely free to ignore it and continue doing things as you are now.  But don't start flamewars or talk down to players in defense of your current practices if they meet with unfavorable feedback.  Thank you.

[smasher]

Gamers Inn in AZ is where I play type 1 and we hold monthly tournaments for 15 dollar entries, the first prize is generally a mox with 2nd place getting store credit if we have enough players to get to the mid twenties.

I definately like only paying 15 dollars to play for a good prize but would be willing to pay more for an expanded prize payout. States in the southwest are too far apart to really draw in people that are further than a couple hours driving distance which pretty much leaves us at AZ players only.

In order to draw from other states I think we would need at least a 25 dollar fee if not higher and offer prize payouts in the 1000 dollar range if not a little higher. This type of tournament wouldn't happen too often, maybe a couple times a year if it does and I'm not sure its worth the gamble of trying it out and have the store take a big hit. Specifically if we are guaranteeing the prize support.

In short I think if communities like the new englad area where multiple tourneys are available each month then you can get away with a 15-20 dollar entry fee as long as the tournaments are not on conflicting dates. If people like the bigger prize payouts then they will attend the higher priced tournaments and vice versa for people just wanting to play some type 1. This would split the attendance between tournaments and seems detrimental to any long term gain of a "standardized" tournament entry fee/prize support.

I guess the burning questions are how often do you want to play for a big prize?
How many smaller events between the big ones do you want for playtesting purposes for the bigger ones?
How much money do you have monthly for hobbies to allow you access to 1-2 tournaments a month?

[Diakonov]

Personally, I play more for the competition than for the payout.  If it were up to me, I'd rather go to $10-$15 tournaments most of the time, while occasionally having one larger event with an entry fee of something like $35.  This way you can show up and play at most tournaments without stressing, and people might be more apt to test out new builds.  In the meantime, you can keep your eye on the next large event and have adequate time to prepare for it.

That is basically how the DCI seems to try and run things, since most Standard and Limited players go to FNM on a weekly basis and occasionally shell out more for a PTQ or Grand Prix.

[Yare]

I voted for $25 because I think it strikes the best balance between being able to have a good prize and not being too excessive. I prefer payouts that feature at least one piece of power; obviously prizes beyond that are good as well. If a piece of power isn't up, it makes my interest in the event significantly lower, though I still consider going. Weekly events can have a smaller entry fee while less regular (monthly or less often) events can have larger entry fees.

I would like to note, however, that I find store credit to be an abysmal prize, primarily because I generally find 1) stores have prices that exceed those on the Internet, 2) it forces the player to buy from the store rather than doing what he wants with the cash, and 3) the store may not have what the players wants, which can be particularly true with Vintage only Magic players. In this way the store gets a "double cut" because it forces players to buy overpriced cards, possibly that he doesn't even want. Cuts for the store directly from the prize pool are absolutely fine, however; obviously, the appropriate level for that has been discussed ad nauseam, so I won't rehash that here.

Regarding an entry fee that would be too high, it would probably depend upon the payout, though at some point I could not really justify attending (say, a $50 entry fee, though again, it would depend on the prizes). On the other hand, while I initially was going to say that low entry fees tend to keep me away because it's not worth the trouble of going (historically tournaments have been far away from me), I did drive two hours to an event once, split for first four ways, and ended up even on the day after taking gas costs into account, so apparently it's not beyond me to just go for the matches.

Edit: $60 is really high. Cut it to $50.

[Juggernaut GO]

you probably know how I feel about prize structures.

1. playing for actual cards is always better then store credit.

2. taking a cash split is always an option for players in top 8, they have to realize that they are obviously going to be ripped off by the T.O. if they opt for a cash buyout other then the cards that were offered.

3. $25 for a mox 1st place/drain 2nd place is probably the most reasonable prize structure, if the cost was 20, it would be even more fair.  But at $25 dollar entry, this prize payout is sustainable with 25 players attending each tournament, which is easily attained anywhere.  Mox, $300, drain $80.  that leaves $245 of wiggle room for other janky prizes for the rest of the top 8 and a nice profit.

4. Paying $30 for entry to a tournament where you receive a full payout in store credit is absurd, especially when store retail prices are marked up a full %100 or more over ebay average prices for the same cards.  On what planet does someone ACTUALLY pay $400 for a mox emerald or ruby?  Not this one...

5.  High entrance fees $30 or up should be reserved for full p9 events, or events who's goal is to draw 100+ players, or perhaps a 2 day event.

I have a feeling the following is why this thread was created:  I saw the myriad event advertised for $50 entry.  I see it as absurd, but there will be people that attend his tournaments regardless of what the cost.  He has players that enjoy his playing space, and that is fine.  I am one of them, but as much as I enjoy playing at his store, and the way he runs his tournaments, I would never pay $50 dollars to play magic, unless it was a tournament like bazaar of moxen in europe.

As an example if 20 players show up for the $50 tournament, no one is going to pay $50 dollars in cash to win MAYBE $400 in myriad money for finishing in first.  I'm just guessing how the top 8 prizes would be dispersed, but even with 20 players paying $50 bucks each at that particular tournament, you wouldn't even be able to purchase a mox with your first place myriad money.  

I see a fine line between "enjoying well run tournaments" as Myriad is properly advertised as, and just straight up getting ripped the fuck off.

As far as $40 for Eric's lotus tournaments, I could go either way.  On one hand, getting the actual lotus for first is great, and the prize structure is indeed fair if you do the math.  But at the same time, I see the only reason people would pay the $40 to play for just a lotus is because there are no longer any star city type events that can be driven to.

I don't think there has been a prize structure offered anywhere on the east coast that compares to my 4 workshop tournament in june 08.  Even TMD open events no longer offer prizes that high, and that's fine.  Since the move to Stratford, those tournaments have been toned down in scale from what they used to be.  I think it just isn't worth the risk to anyone except me to run something on that big of a scale, and I did it just to be able to tell myself that I might just have run the greatest vintage tournament ever (in the united states anyway).

[2nd_lawl]

25$ is obviously the correct answer.

[mgouthro]

I'm glad you created this topic as recent tournament entry fees have dissuaded my team from attending or planning to attend events. We travel roughly 5 hours each way to attend events in a certain city where the entry fees have been trending upwards for the time period you have indicated.

At $25, it was reasonable for an unlimited P9. At $30, it was for a premium prize like two moxen, or a beta P9, or a Lotus. Still, fairly worth it and the tournaments were well attended, so additional prizes were added. Now, the latest three events, not all by the same organizer, are listed at $40 and based on a certain attendance. At this point, it's getting overly costly as two of them are for a Lotus, which used to be a $30 entry fee. Furthermore, this price point is likely pricing the casual/non-vintage regulars out of the event, and has priced people who are traveling long distance to said events.

So, to answer your questions:

The cutoff when the price is too high is over $30 for less than multiple pieces of power/P9.

The prize support would be too low if I had to drive longer than 2 hours for anything valued at less than $200, with an entry fee greater than $15.

Right now, of the examples you provided, Batterup comics has a great deal. Obviously some of the options from 2005 look great, but I give them a pass as the economics of the game have probably changed. Better yet, there's now a store in less than 2 hours of driving with both monthly Vintage and Legacy events for $15 a pop. The prize structures are great too, with recent prizes being a Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Bazaar/Library, Mox Emerald, and have great 2-4 prizes valued anywhere from $60-$200 per slot. (playset of FoW, 4 Blue Duals, Tolarian/Vamp/Yawg's Will, Dual + Fetch)

As for feedback to tournament organizers, this next one is mostly aimed at stores that run events. I'm only an organizer, and not a store owner. When I run an event, I'm not getting my prizes at store costs, but closer to full cost. I'm also not getting 30-40 people in a place where they wouldn't normally be, and selling product to them. I'm not getting free advertising as a result of an event for product on my shelves. I'm also not selling drinks or food either. These are benefits that a store gets. An event run by a store should not be considered a separate financial event, and all of these factors should be considered for a break-even point. This would allow for making the entry more reasonable and the store can add prizes to the event if there is a large turnout at their discretion.

Those are my thoughts. Honestly, I love this game. I'd travel to Rochester again in a heartbeat for a SCG P9, or any P9 event. I even drove to Boston for the one there. Outside of the fluctuations in the game via restrictions and unrestrictions, I've been fairly happy to attend any event I can while ignoring people trying to state that Mana Drain decks are now Force of Will decks.

[Tha Gunslinga]

As a TO, I would never imagine running anything under $25, because I have to pay for the venue ($100 for me) and provide at least something to 5-8th, plus usually Mox, Drain, 2 blue duals to top 4, so we're already talking $550+, so breaking even at 22 players.  I sincerely doubt that there are people who would show up at $20 who wouldn't show at $25.  $30 is pushing it for a Mox event, but $25 seems fair to me.

[Prospero]

I like the $25 entrance fee better than anything else.  I think that playing for a Mox for first, Drain for second is more than fair.

If I'm paying $30, or more, the first place prize better be a Lotus.

$40 entry fee is high.  I did it once, and while I feel that the prize structure was certainly reasonable, I don't think that I'd do it again.  I could see paying more for a tournament if the prize structure was ridiculous, a la Bazaar of Moxen.  I'd pay $50 for that.  But that's probably my cutoff point on what I'm willing to pay before I seriously consider staying at home. 

As a T/O I've run my events at $25 entry fee with a Mox for first and Drain for second.  This month's event had an Alpha Mox given out to first.  I'm going to run the Lotus event at $30 entry, but I couldn't imagine ever running an event for more than that.  I think that, at that point, you start driving players away.

[RichardD]

What level of entrance fee are you most comfortable with? 
I'd be most comfortable with an entrance fee of about $15. We now pay approximately 10-15 € over here.

Is there a cutoff at which you would no longer consider going to an event because its entrance fee is too high? 
If so, what is it?  
Anything over 25$ for a Constructed tournament is too much in my opinion. Even PTQs where you win a trip to Japan or the US don't cost that much.

Is there a point where prize support becomes too low to consider an event worth the time invested?  
I expect the TO to put at least 70% of the total fees raised back into the tournament. This is because I expect the TO to be able to run a tournament with few expenses. (Venue, Judge, small own fee and the rest should be pay out as far as I'm concerned.)

Of the examples provided above, which are your favorites? 
The TO in Hadley seems to be doing what I prefer.

What other feedback would you give to TO's today? 
That one hit wonders are NOT the standard. People should realize that you can't just make tournaments big and interesting from the get go. You have to build a community and in the beginning this can be rough, but it will give you the satisfaction you're looking for in the end.

Are there any other specific ways you'd like the scene to change?
Not at this moment. I'd like to see more tournaments here in Europe, but that's not reasonable since the different scenes are still somewhat interlinked. People don't play JUST Vintage or JUST Limited. People play Magic. And with the current schedule every weekend is full of Magic!

Richard (2 cents poorer) Drijvers.

[Marske]

As a player and TO I agree with most of the stuff RichardD stated about, but to at least give some more insights from my perspective I'll add to the points he made

What level of entrance fee are you most comfortable with?
I'd be most comfortable with an entrance fee of about $15. We now pay approximately 10-15 € over here.

I think this should be the correct price, I've talked to numerous TO's in Europe and in the US and no way can people sell the "but the venue is expensive" ticket to me or any other reason (besides upping the prizes) to go above this, for me 20€ would be the absolute maximum I'd want to pay for a Mox tournament. For just 5 € more I get to play for an entire set of P9 over here in Europe (no lies see here for yourself)

Is there a cutoff at which you would no longer consider going to an event because its entrance fee is too high?
If so, what is it? 
Anything over 25$ for a Constructed tournament is too much in my opinion. Even PTQs where you win a trip to Japan or the US don't cost that much.

Agreed, just look at my previous statement and link.

Is there a point where prize support becomes too low to consider an event worth the time invested? 
I expect the TO to put at least 70% of the total fees raised back into the tournament. This is because I expect the TO to be able to run a tournament with few expenses. (Venue, Judge, small own fee and the rest should be pay out as far as I'm concerned.)

Also agreed, we've been organizing Vintage events for well over a year now and I can honestly say we've done just this with great success (our event gathers around 40+ players every time topping of at 61 for a Mox)

Of the examples provided above, which are your favorites?
The TO in Hadley seems to be doing what I prefer.

Agreed.

What other feedback would you give to TO's today?
That one hit wonders are NOT the standard. People should realize that you can't just make tournaments big and interesting from the get go. You have to build a community and in the beginning this can be rough, but it will give you the satisfaction you're looking for in the end.

As stated before, we've build a Vintage community from scratch (it was all but gone in the Netherlands) by simply being consistent with our tournaments (1 every 2-3 month's), giving out the same prizes every time (Mox for first, Drain/ LoA/ Grim etc for second, Duals / Staples to spots 3-8) and I'm fairly confident in claiming that you can ask just about any player that's been to one of our events what he thinks and he'll be enthusiastic about the way we run things. Building a community takes time and a lot of effort but it's certainly worth it. One shot wonders and big time events are nice but when you look at stuff like BoM and EuroVino you'll notice both big events have a thriving Vintage community behind them with smaller events taking place before they took it to the big level.

Are there any other specific ways you'd like the scene to change?
Not at this moment. I'd like to see more tournaments here in Europe, but that's not reasonable since the different scenes are still somewhat interlinked. People don't play JUST Vintage or JUST Limited. People play Magic. And with the current schedule every weekend is full of Magic!

This is even more so for Vintage players which normally also dabble in other formats like Webster, LSV, Chapin, Probasco etc. People usually play other formats as well, which can cut severely into time playing Vintage which isn't a bad thing imo.

ps @ RichardD,
Even more events ?! I've got 4 of them lined up until the end of the year already....

[Demonic Attorney]

Furthermore, this price point is likely pricing the casual/non-vintage regulars out of the event

This is a very good observation and one of the main reasons I made this thread.  In the past week, I've spoken to three players who told me that the difference between spending $15 and $25 has, for each of them, been the difference between going to a tournament or not going to a tournament.  And these weren't even casual players. 

I don't know very many Vintage players that I'd classify as "casual," but I can only assume that being "priced out," as you say, applies to them with even greater force.  Think about the format in 2004-2005; the turnouts of 30-40 people in local tournaments were comprised in large part of casual players.  Where are they now?  In large part, they're gone and with them have gone the regular 30-40 player turnouts.

I'm not trying to offer post hoc, ergo propter hoc reasoning and say that the change in entrance fees is the reason for the exodus of the more "casual" Vintage players and thus the reason for low turnouts.  But I am submitting this thread to the community for people to voice their thoughts about entrance fees, in part, to explore the issue. 

[waywreth]

Great idea for a thread...

For me at least I will attend any event $25 and under for at least a Mox (or the store credit value), and I don't have prior or conflicting plans.  Given the same prize structure for something $15, I would do my best to attend the event and keep the day clear.  Obviously location and venue plays a part as well, beyond the entry fees.

Once the entry fees go over $30, I would only attend if I'm either really bored, or trying to avoid going to something else.  I very likely wouldn't attend a $50+ event unless there was something guaranteed as part of participating, even then it's unlikely.

[honestabe]

I'd  MUCH rather go to a $15 event, than a $25 one.  I now, I'm not saying that I would expect the prize structure to be the same either.  
I personally, would much rather soend a smaller amount to win a smaller payout (maybe a timetwister/grim tutor/library of alexandria for first and maybe 2 duals or some alt. art/foil staples for 2nd).  The Hadley Tournaments come to mind.
I feel at these types of tournaments, we can still play magic, pay for gas, as well as hang out after, all without breaking the bank.

This is not to say that $25-$30 tournaments shouldn't take place, I just thing that they should be less common that the $15 ones.

In my ideal world, there would be 2-3 $15 dollar tournaments a month, and 1 $25 a month, with the "bigger" more SCG like tournaments costing 30-40 happening once every few months.  This way, we can still go to the $15 tournaments, mainly to have fun, and still have the more "serious" (not to say that a tournament costing $15 isn't serious, but it seems to be the only word that fits here) tournaments for a bigger payout.



To wrap it up, I'd like it to be 75% $15 tournaments, 20% $25 tournaments, and 5% $30-40  torunaments

Great idea for a thread...

For me at least I will attend any event $25 and under for at least a Mox (or the store credit value), and I don't have prior or conflicting plans.  Given the same prize structure for something $15, I would do my best to attend the event and keep the day clear.  Obviously location and venue plays a part as well, beyond the entry fees.

Once the entry fees go over $30, I would only attend if I'm either really bored, or trying to avoid going to something else.  I very likely wouldn't attend a $50+ event unless there was something guaranteed as part of participating, even then it's unlikely.

Exactly.  I am much more likely to go out of my way to atend a tournament if the entry is cheaper.  Not to say I wouldn't go to a $25 tournament, I'd just much rather go to one that cost $15

[MirariKnight]

$25 seems like the right amount to me, and a Mox as a prize.

Just going by my very recent experience, there have been 2 types of tournaments available to play in:
1) The bi-weekly events at Jim Hanley's Universe in NYC
2) The N.Y.S.E. events run on Long Island

Of the two, I much prefer the N.Y.S.E. events. Both are relatively close by but the JHU events ($15 entry fee, all but the store cut back as cash prize) is much more casual as far as decks go, and feel a lot less competitive. While I do love playing in them, the fact that (depending on attendance, but based on past experience) I could potentially win the tournament and not break even on entry fee + transportation is a big factor. The people who I play with are less likely to attend as a result of this as well, and it is much harder to justify making the trip alone. the N.Y.S.E. events on the other hand ($25 for a Mox) are exactly what I am looking for; the entry fee and prizes being on the higher end of reasonable make for a more competitive and higher stakes tournament that is in general much more exciting to play in. I know some people (especially myself and Yare) have discussed upping the entry fee for the JHU events to $20 which would make it a much better event in my eyes (no offense meant to Jostin/Noah, I do love coming out to the city to play). I do feel that the larger events that take up an entire day (or even 2 days) are "worth" more, as I am paying for entertainment for the day (a movie is 2 hours at $10, so 8-10 hours of Magic at $25 seems reasonable, while 4-5 hours at $15 is still good, it's not quite as good).

Also I'd love to have something huge (the $50 range) yearly or bi-yearly with some ridiculous prize support (full set of power or something similar). These are the only types of events it is feasible for me to travel long distance to, but they would definitely be worthwhile.

[Diakonov]

For me at least I will attend any event $25 and under for at least a Mox (or the store credit value), and I don't have prior or conflicting plans.  Given the same prize structure for something $15, I would do my best to attend the event and keep the day clear.  Obviously location and venue plays a part as well, beyond the entry fees.

Once the entry fees go over $30, I would only attend if I'm either really bored, or trying to avoid going to something else.  I very likely wouldn't attend a $50+ event unless there was something guaranteed as part of participating, even then it's unlikely.

I agree very much with this.  I don't think most people would simply refuse to go to a tournament because it is, say, $25 instead of $15, but it can be enough to deter when there are other potential factors at work.  Before I agree to go, I always say to myself, "how bad would it be if I 0-2 dropped?"  Let's use a $25 mox tournament as an example.  If I could potentially have other plans that Saturday, it's an hour and a half away, I'm a little rusty/untested, and money has been a little tight lately... it might be kinda depressing.  Delete any two of those factors, and it starts to look more like a guaranteed positive experience that's worth $25.

I think on a person to person basis, it really comes down to two main variables, A vs. B:

A. The degree to which you just want to show up and have competition, and how much you are willing to pay for that.

B. The degree to which you enjoy gambling (SUB-variable: your level of confidence in your ability).

[nataz]

Just as a side note, I didn't stop playing because of the money, I stooped because moving, and my job, and my fiancee, and eventually starting school again, starting taking too much time away from vintage and traveling for vintage.

So really, I guess I'm okay with 25 or even 30 dollar entry fees. 

Something I think is important is in the list you presented, there is only 1 To that has been consistent since 2005. Dan @ Myriad Games is the only NE TO who puts out an event every month for almost 5 years. No one else even comes close.

I think its important to realize that its comparatively easy to justify TO'ing 5 or 6 events at lower entry higher payout events, then it is to run events that are profitable (kinda) for the TO and are run every month. Burn out is real (look at the list of great stores and events that have fallen by the wayside).  I've spent many a dinner with Dan talking about his store and his business, and I've come to the conclusion that he is one of the smartest small business owners that I know. While the price of the venue may be high, I as a player am more then willing to pay the premium to make sure that there will be an event every month in a nice store, with a good staff.   

[LordHomerCat]

I am interested in $25, maybe 20.  Anything less than that sucks, because I don't want to drive 90min to Chicago to play for a Library or something.  I'm also okay with like weekly $5 events like have started here in Milwaukee, because its easy and you can play whatever and basically just be testing for a few hours a week, and then maybe win a couple packs.  But like, I don't want to drive an hour or more and end up spending more on gas than entry fee or something.  30 for a power nine is OK as well, but I would like the events I attend to be 25 because it is a good balance between not being a ridiculously expensive event (50?  Seriously?) and not being an FNM where it isn't worth the drive.

[RichardD]

I am interested in $25, maybe 20.  Anything less than that sucks, because I don't want to drive 90min to Chicago to play for a Library or something.  I'm also okay with like weekly $5 events like have started here in Milwaukee, because its easy and you can play whatever and basically just be testing for a few hours a week, and then maybe win a couple packs.  But like, I don't want to drive an hour or more and end up spending more on gas than entry fee or something.  30 for a power nine is OK as well, but I would like the events I attend to be 25 because it is a good balance between not being a ridiculously expensive event (50?  Seriously?) and not being an FNM where it isn't worth the drive.

What if your "FNM" would turn out to grow towards 30-40 or even more players?
All because it is indeed low threshold, around the corner, low fees, not too high payout?
(Not too competative, close by, not too expensive, and not stretching the TO's wallet like ludicrous.)

I'd rather see a lot of these type of events complimented with a bigger tournament within 1 hour drive like once a month, then only 25-30$ entree tournaments with high pay out.

[LordHomerCat]

If there were 30-40 vintage players here, that would be incredible.  The thing is, there were 10 today and that was pretty much the average.  Hell, even if there were 30, I wouldn't drive down to Chicago for that.  It's just not worth the time and effort and money at that point to play for essentially nothing.

I think small events like we are starting here are very good for the game and are potentially one of the building blocks we can use to remake our format and playerbase.  But, I don't expect people who live very far from the city to attend.  It's not like JACO is going to drive an hour and a half each way up here every Tuesday to play Vintage for 5 bucks. Why would he?  It might as well just be a testing session at that point as he spends far more on gas than cards.

[vassago]

If there were 30-40 vintage players here, that would be incredible.  The thing is, there were 10 today and that was pretty much the average.  Hell, even if there were 30, I wouldn't drive down to Chicago for that.  It's just not worth the time and effort and money at that point to play for essentially nothing.

I think small events like we are starting here are very good for the game and are potentially one of the building blocks we can use to remake our format and playerbase.  But, I don't expect people who live very far from the city to attend.  It's not like JACO is going to drive an hour and a half each way up here every Tuesday to play Vintage for 5 bucks. Why would he?  It might as well just be a testing session at that point as he spends far more on gas than cards.

This is true. It is hard for me to want to drive so far and not have anything to potentially gain from it.  I mean there are type 1 tournys down in Tucson, but I am sure not driving unless the prize is good. 

[Chaos Lord 21]

I have no problem with $30 or more entry fees, with a cap around $50 for Vintage tournaments, as long as the prizes were commensurate. But being that I have never won a Vintage event and only infrequently top 8, I am much more attracted to tourneys with a flatter prize structure, and specifically ones that pay out to top 16 (which I recognize is rare). I recall being thrilled making top 32 of the SCG power9 Boston event and still getting paid out (granted I believe there were ~117 players w/ $30 entry and the payout was probably a booster pack or so from 17-32, but it was still something). It basically boils down to one's view of their confidence in the format and expected ROI. For a Limited event for example, which I'd consider my forte format, I could justify an entry fee up to several hundred dollars and would prefer a top-heavy payout, but for Vintage I guess I'm more of a "casual" player.

[mike_bergeron]

Something I think is important is in the list you presented, there is only 1 To that has been consistent since 2005. Dan @ Myriad Games is the only NE TO who puts out an event every month for almost 5 years. No one else even comes close.

QFT.  Also, This is an interesting thread because there are many players like myself who simply see vintage as exercise for the brain and basically entertainment for the day.  So what am I willing to pay for that entertainment?  Enough to make sure I can continue to go to events when I feel like it.  People are always talking about wanting a big payout event, but they don't want to actually pay for it.  They will drive/fly to a SCG P9, book a hotel room, eat, pay the entry fee and spend a lot more money than anything mentioned in this thread- but they don't complain about that cost.

[failtofind]

i am all for the 15 dollar tournaments, every mox tournament i go to i top 8 and don't even get my entrance back because everyone's 25 just goes towards the mox, and everyone else gets nothing

[Juggernaut GO]

Something I think is important is in the list you presented, there is only 1 To that has been consistent since 2005. Dan @ Myriad Games is the only NE TO who puts out an event every month for almost 5 years. No one else even comes close.

QFT.  Also, This is an interesting thread because there are many players like myself who simply see vintage as exercise for the brain and basically entertainment for the day.  So what am I willing to pay for that entertainment?  Enough to make sure I can continue to go to events when I feel like it.  People are always talking about wanting a big payout event, but they don't want to actually pay for it.  They will drive/fly to a SCG P9, book a hotel room, eat, pay the entry fee and spend a lot more money than anything mentioned in this thread- but they don't complain about that cost.

As I mentioned in my post, there will be people who attend myriad no matter what because they value the play at the store more then they would value any prize support given out.  That is fine, I am not one of those players.

You are trying to compare an event at Myriad vs a double p9 weekend, and they are just no where in the same ballpark, they aren't even in the same sport.  There are costs associated wherever you go, gas/flight, food, hotel etc like you mentioned, but when you attend a 2 day event there is an expected value of what you will receive for attending.  I don't complain about the ancillary costs to attending an out of state tournament because the T.O. has nothing to do with setting those costs.  If the tournament entry is reasonable and the prize support is fair, that's where the T.O's responsibility to the player ends.

I like Dan as a person, he is great, but whenever there is a discussion on this forum about tournament prize support comes up, so does Myriad and their lack of it.  

The bottom line is that every business is allowed to make money to the best of it's ability, but you can't expect people that see these tournaments as a ripoff to not call it out when given the opportunity to do so.  It isn't slanderous, it's American.

[Godder]

If Myriad Games has been running monthly Vintage tournaments for 5 years, and nobody has come close (as mentioned earlier in the thread), there must be something in their fee/payout structure that makes it work ahead of all others. It's also a legitimate choice on the part of a TO to put more of the fees towards a venue/staff etc and less to the payout if that provides better customer service and more enjoyment, and more loyalty as in this case.

It's also fine to say that one wouldn't play that sort of structure, but anything that devolves into personal attacks, or TO/store-specific attacks, is not the point of this thread.

[Juggernaut GO]

Actually, I'm fairly certain that's exactly the reason this thread was created.  Do you really think there was absolutely no coincidence that Myriad announced $30 and $50 tournaments for store credit, and this thread came out within 2 days? 

To make the argument that longevity by having tournaments monthly for 5 years is a "good thing" is a little ridiculous. Bush was in office for 8 years, that doesn't mean anything good came of it.

I won't involve myself any more in this discussion so I can avoid any kind of negative reaction, I have made my opinions more then clear regardless.

[MadManiac21]

3.  Hadley events initially remained at $15 entry for a sliding scale that allowed for a Library, 4x FOW, 3 duals, and 5 packs to the t8 for 20 attendees.  Subsequent events went up to $20 but offered a bigger prize payout, including a Mox and a Drain guaranteed for 20 attendees.  Even in that case, Hadley maintained its tradition of charging less than the prevailing fee for its events and paid out truly impressive prizes.

On a scale of one to shit-eating grin, this put a huge smile on my face. Definitely honored to be noted as running events that "charged less and paid out truly impressive prizes".

Had the torch not been passed to the new kid running Hadley events, I'd be back to doing either either at the mall or Off the Wall games. $15-$20 is what I believe to be the range for events, with more duals/playables then moxes as far as I am concerned - everyone proxies them anyways, try and spread the staples out so more people can build and play.

$25 is my top end, and I've only ever paid that for old school Waterbury. More than that and I'm better off just playing a poker tournament for the time to fun to prize ratio.

[nataz]

Awww Traaaaaavis. It's okay not to like Dan's payouts, you can always vote with your feet. No harm, no foul. Just a note, I think myriad has been at it longer then 5 years come to think of it.

I will say this. If there was a 15 dollar event within 20 mins of my home I'd play every week. If there was a 30 dollar event I'd play almost as much. For me the entry fee is nothing compared with the rest of the day. All those other costs Travis mentioned are what really hit the ol' bank account. Gas, Time, Food, etc., are all much larger investments then the entry fee.

So, coming from someone who has always had to travel for at LEAST 1.5 hours (unless I want to risk redic speeding tix), I'm willing to pay a premium for a well run event, staff, etc.,

In a perfect world, there would be weekly feeder events close by (under 20 mins) every week (or multiple a week) for 10-15 dollars (think FNM), and then larger events at least bi-weekly for moxen and with higher fees. It's a shame that we can't actualy get that depth - although central NE comes close. 



 

[Joblin Velder]

Good thread. When I came back after 4 years, the most surprising thing I saw was entrance fees. I'm a firm believer in $15 mox tournaments; maybe $20. With attendance down like it is, I can see $25 for a mox.

If the prize is store credit, I refuse to pay more than $10 locally. I'd probably not travel to a tournament offering credit as a prize; especially if its in a different state and I'm pretty much forced to spend it immediately. Store credit = completely lame.


EDITED FOR CLARITY