Dredge in Extended

[Almanomada]

So I am an avid lover of the Dredge mechanic.  of course from the last time I played this deck in extended, it has lost careful study, breakthrough, Ichorid, Sutured Ghoul, cephalid colliseum and cabal therapy.  I may have forgotten a couple.  SO basically all that was left was the version i ran during the 2 week span the deck was standard legal.  Does anyone think/know if this deck can be viable in standard (I totally meant extended which everyone figured out already) come October?  

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below
4 Magus of the Bazaar
4 Tome Scour
3 Dread Return
2 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Akroma Angel of Wrath
4 Bonded Fetch
4 Drowned Rusalka
4 Llanowar Mentor
2 Life From the Loam
4 Street Wraith
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Vivid marsh
4 Vivid Creek
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Dryad Arbor

This list is at 72 but includes most every card I am considering.  If anyone has any ideas for cutting it down to 60 and or switching out certain cards for others, please let me know.  I feel this deck will not be played at all in extended which means noone will really be prepared for it like in Legacy/Vintage.

[akfox]

First, this is confirmed in Zendikar:

Bloodghast             BB
Creature - Vampire Spirit    Rare
Bloodghast can't block.
Bloodghast has haste as long as an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield.
2/1

He's at the very least Narcomoeba 5-8, with a lot more upside.  I'd think about tossing in a Dakmor Salvage or two into the list just to ensure you can always get them out, though that may be too cute.

Next, while Magus' effect is powerful, he is too slow and fragile to make much of an impact most games.  For the same cmc Oona's Prowler is a better discard outlet. Even if you lose the potency of Bazaar you will always be able to discard your dredgers, Bridges, Dread Returns and Dread Return targets to it.  For similar reasons I'm not too impressed with Bonded Fetch.  Sure, it's got haste but it's active on turn 3 just like Magus, and at this point you should be ready to win. 

I'd keep Tome Scour for now (haven't tested it but it seems like a strong early play on its face), and I'd supplement it with Burning Inquiry.  I wouldn't concern myself with the symmetry or the random discard...Dredge 3 cards is all we're concerned with.  Resolve this and you probably win on the spot. 

I'm not sure if the deck should have Chrome Moxes and/or SSG in it.  I'm not against a little acceleration but I think the next Extended environment will be fairly control oriented, as with the loss of fetchlands Zoo will be weakened and the format will slow by a turn or two.  Early on you probably won't even see much hate for the deck, and even Mogg Fanatic will see less play to rfg your Bridges thanks to the new rules. 

All this being taken into account, lets start with a stock list:

12 Dredgers (Stinky, Grave-Troll, Thug)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Oona's Prowler
1 Fatty Dread Return Target (Akroma/Hellkite Overlord/some other bomb depending on the metagame)
2 Flamekin Zealot (3 if you play without a fatty)
27 Creatures

4 Tome Scour
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
15 Spells

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2-4 Gemstone Caverns
2 Dakmor Salvage
0-2 Dryad Arbor

SB depending on a meta we can't really foresee at the moment, and of course the list has a lot of holes and needs testing and tweaking...it's just a working model to get started with.  I think the thing that we'll miss Therapy most of all, to be honest.  It was such a good way to clear the way for Dread Return on top of being a convenient sac outlet...but this is what we have to work with and I'm confident that we can tune this into a competitive deck.

[Almanomada]

I agree with your points precisely.  the creatures are too slow.  I was just looking at Goblin Lore for  draw 4 discard 3 and of course Burning Inquiry is great turn 1-2 following a scour.  Wheel of fate I figured isnt too bad iether going hard red and dropping all bue critters except narcs.  Enemy Fetch lands are confirmed and I believe ZOO will still be the deck to beat and Dredge cannot possibly rely on creatures to get the engine going. I am working on a new updated version running strong red main and will post that shortly. 

What do you think of this Zoo build (of course Zendikar may effect it) using just the fetches from Zendikar that are known.

4 Arid Mesa ( fetch)
2  fetch
4  fetch
2 Treetop village
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest 1 Plains 1 Mountain

2 Tarfire
2 Seal of Fire
4 Tribal Flames
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Isamaru Hound of Konda
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Mogg Fanatic

SB
4 Path to Exile
4 Kataki War Wage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Ethersworn Cannonist

Its a rough build trying to maintain the same quickness it had with the friendly fetch lands... Thanks for the input on Dredge.  I played it online and it was destroyed by creaure hate early on although i still managed to fish and pull out some wins but its way too hard relying on magus and bonded like you said they are too slow.  I also really like Bloodghast, Ichorids little brother.

[akfox]

Yeah, I didn't foresee them printing new fetches in Zendikar, which of course changes the whole picture.  I think Zoo is probably the way to go.  That being said your list looks a bit unfocused.  I don't think Isochron Scepter goes in Zoo...you'd be better off with another burn spell or creature 99% of the time.  I bet if we thought hard enough though, we could think of another 2cc artifact to play in its place!  Also, while Treetop Village is a good card it's probably too slow for ext and it definitely doesn't help your deck which actually needs to have lands in play that have basic land types.  If you're playing for the long game, don't play Zoo.  

I can see the appeal of 5 colors, but for consistency's sake I personally would stick with RGW.  Here's a list that won a GP back in March:

Creatures
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Woolly Thoctar

Enchantments
3 Seal Of Fire

Instants
2 Incinerate
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Isamaru, Hound Of Konda

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB is irrelevant, but the main deck should stay about the same with the exception of adding Lightning Bolt (and the new fetches).  Probably just switch out the 4 Paths or 2 Path/2 Incinerate for Bolts and go to town.  I'm partial to burn in an aggro deck but I can see a possibility for needing Path.  EDIT: Also, Mogg Fanatic.  Still a good card, not sure if it's good enough.  Not exactly sure what to replace him with.  Probably Savannah Lions or or another dumb 2 power 1 drop.  Maybe that new 2/2 haste goblin, if his drawback doesn't turn out to be too much.  Lastly, Gaddock Teeg.  If I'm not mistaken, he was was there to handle storm combo.  Except for Dragonstorm, that archetype is dead, so I don't know that he's needed.  At the same mana cost you have Quasali Pridemage, who has the same body and still packs all kinds of utility, or you can go more aggressive with Keldon Marauders. 

If you're partial to Domain Zoo, the reasons to do so are Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler, with Tribal Flames as an added bonus.  I can't comment too much about that because I have not played it, but it just seems to me that it makes the mana a bit more shaky for not too much benefit (definite loss of speed for uncertain gain in card advantage).  Again, all based on opinion.

Funny how one spoiled card can make us talk about Zoo in a Dredge thread.

[Almanomada]

It is definately.  I have all the cards for iether deck and just love dredge..   heres the decklist i finalized online of course I need to refine the mana base a bit hoping Zendikar does that.  

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 BloodGhast ?
4 tome scour
4 grave troll
3 thug
4 stinkweed imp
3 street wraith
4 bridge
3 dread return
2 flame kin zealot
1 Akroma
4 narcomoeba
1 Life from the loam

1 dakmor salvage
1 dryad arbor
4 forbidden orchard
4 gemstone mine
4 gemstone caverns
4 crumbling necropolis  (which i need something better..  that doesnt enter play tapped)

It plays much better and I am consistent around turn 3 currently and have defeated a couple control decks.   In the place of bloodghast currently until i get him, i am actually running a 4th thug and wraith and 2 wheel of fates.  I love Wheel of fate and if i get one on turn 1 or 2 depending on caverns, then i win if it resolves otherwise just need 2 of the other draw spells to pull out a turn 3 victory consistently.  A guy playing izzetron lost 2 towers and a mine off my turn 1 inquiry.  a turn 2 scour followed by inquiry led to a turn 3 lore FTW.  he tried countering my dread return but of cours i got 12 zombies from it and cast the backup to get zealot.    I dont think this deck will be expected this coming season.  Hoping not to see too many leylines otherwise I think an alternate deck from the sideboard might be decent.  The sideboard is the only thing i am not sure on -- I know enchantment hate is needed and artifact hate. ancient grudge..

[akfox]

Yeah, if Dredge is unexpected early it will be awesome.  However, as soon as it establishes itself it will get hated to death...then you just have to accept it and find another deck until it goes under the radar again and then you can pick it back up. 

As for me, I'll be testing Dredge and Zoo and figure out which one I like best.  I really hope that Dredge isn't expected but if you can see it, and if I can see, I just have to assume everyone can see it. 

[Almanomada]

I know i will run dredge at the start for sure until it is hated out.. then default to Zoo..   I think anyone else who thinks to play it will fear the hate more and play control..  thats why the first week of qualifiers is dredges playground..  again.   i am using mtgo to playtest it and it has been crushing control fairly well.  at least on mtgo the meta seems crazy control and enchantment based white.  I am sure there will be plenty zoo, affinity, goblins and boros type RDW.  I am going to run it in a few tournaments and see how it does..  I will post results here later.

[akfox]

The problem with testing on MTGO right now is that we don't have access to all of the cards that will actually be in the decks.  You could always proxy up some Bloodghasts but even then it won't be accurate until we get the full spoiler.  Who knows, they might give us even more tools. 

[Almanomada]

You are right about MTGO, but its my only way to play until the end of october.  Once I return to the US, I will have physical cards  and real players to test against.  I am hoping they have a few more Unearth cards..  a creature with unearth 0 would be bomb even if it doesnt hit the yard when dying. (or does it?)  I would love to see alternate unearth costs like discard a card, or sac a creature.  Cant wait for the spoiler list. 

[akfox]

Unearth is specific to Shards block and I doubt they'll bring it back so soon.  That does remind me though...we've been neglecting it up until now.  I don't know if Fatestitcher is very good in Ext, though.  No Bazaars to untap.  Maybe the 2/1 Zombie guy who Unearths for B, just as a beater or maybe as food for Dread Return.  He's probably redundant for that, though.  Narcomoeba and Bloodghast seem sufficient. 

Btw, a new card was spoiled just this evening:

Sphinx of Lost Truths      3UU
Creature - Sphinx    Rare
Kicker 1U
Flying
When Sphinx of Lost Truths enters the battlefield, draw three cards. Then if it wasn't kicked, discard three cards.
3/5

Pretty much fills the role of Cepahalid Sage, with a real body should the need arise.  Maybe a "win more" card though.  Time will tell.

[Almanomada]

The Sphinx is amazing.  He is def getting a 2 of slot for sure.  fatestitcher wont work without bazaar and the zombie unearther doesnt help with bridges. I agree with that for sure.  The Sphinx fills that void easily left by the sage.  With the emergance of path to exile, I actually thought of the red Akroma Angel of Fury instead of wrath...  but not sure there.  Also as a win condition that new angel from Zendikar spoiled name a color opponent cannot play spells of the chosen color ever.  she is a fat beat stick on her own and tells mono decks GG.  I am going to stick with 2 flame kins as a win condition but looking for alternate returns targets. 

[akfox]

Also as a win condition that new angel from Zendikar spoiled name a color opponent cannot play spells of the chosen color ever.  she is a fat beat stick on her own and tells mono decks GG. 

Mono-color decks in ext?  What're you smoking? 

All kidding aside, Iona doesn't seem like enough.  In Legacy or Vintage you probably just name Blue 9 times in 10 and shut your opponent down, but Extended is just too wide open, colorwise.  Even Faeries plays 3-4 colors for removal.  She's a defensive card that doesn't do a very good job on defense.  It's best to focus on the strategy to make a million zombies and swarm ASAP.  The Sphinx accomplishes that, Iona doesn't. 

I was thinking Fatestitcher could tap a blocker or something...not sure why that'd ever matter, which is why I thought it won't work.  As for Dregscape Zombie, granted that he doesn't feed Bridges but sometimes you need a 3rd guy for Dread Return or just want that extra guy in the red zone.  Still, he's probably not enough.  Extractor Demon would be fun though...

[Almanomada]

God point.   Iona sounds good in theory.. I may run one of her in my Legacy deck for playtesting.  Akroma doesnt seem like a good enough win condition now.  with path to exiles seeing evry deck.  I think the zombie that hits the board from the yard from playing lands will be narcomoebas 5-8.  Definately running 2 Sphinx as well.  Fatewstitcher is dead without Bazaars.  What exactly is an extractor demon?  I looked it up and couldnt find anything.  Thanks a lot for helping me with this build.

[akfox]

Extractor Demon     4BB

Flying

Whenever another creature leaves play, you may have target player put the top two cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Unearth 2B

5/5

I just thought the milling would be fun...not really fit for a competitive deck. 

[Almanomada]

It would almost fit as a dread return target.. and i would always target myself with the milling.  But your right not really competitive enough.  Sadistic Hypnotist is better but I dont think i will run him iether.  

4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 BloodGhast ?
4 tome scour
4 grave troll
4 thug
4 stinkweed imp
4 bridge
3 dread return
2 flame kin zealot
4 narcomoeba
2 Sphinx of lost truths

1 dakmor salvage
1 dryad arbor
4 Steam Vents
4 gemstone mine
2 gemstone caverns
4   fetches  (So i can search up the dryad if needed)  


I see playing a fetch turn 2-3 when the combo is about ready to burst, return bloodghast to play.. sac him and return him again the same turn.  also I have one slot left open for an alternate win condition over the classic flame kin. I cut akroma  .
So far,  I am tinkering between inkwell leviathon (7/11 trample shroud islandwalk) isleback spawn (4/8 shroud that becomes 8/16 if you have less than 20 cards in library..  follows the theme lol) empyrial archangel (5/8 flying shroud that takes all damage dealt to you to herself) Simic Skyswallower (6/6 flying trample shroud)  Those were just the best creatures of the shroud ability to counter the ever growing path to exile and other similar kill spells.  Which one seems the best fit to you? anyone? i like the isleback because of 8/16 but without trample or flying it doesnt make the cut.   The Archangel misses as well due to not being big enough.   Now for me,  I  am actually thinking the inkwell cause i like the landwalking ability better than flying and that inky cant be multi-blocked to be killed.  I believe shroud is key in the new extended

[akfox]

I proxied this up for playtesting today:

11 Dredge men
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Shinx of Lost Truths

4 Tome Scour (I think it's absolutely imperative to do something on turn 1)
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Goblin Lore
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Dryad Arbor

I play a couple extra lands to help with stability and to give me extra chances to get value from Bloodghast. 

Anyhow, I played a few games with this build, simple and unrefined as it is, and it is the real deal.  Anyone unprepared for this is going to get bent over a barrel.  It wins on turn 2 at least half the time and turn 3 about 90% of the time.  Pessimist the I am, though...I don't see it being that much of a surprise and people will be prepared.  But if they're not....wow.


 

[Almanomada]

Looks like you cut the wraiths to add 2 lands and 1 scour.  considering niether of those lands are usable the turn they enter play except for the Ghast and also the dryad as a dread return sacrifice.  That basically leave both our build at 14 usable lands immediately (feel like thats spelled wrong?).    The obvious hate is leyline of the void but I have not seen many of those lately.  Tormods crypt is still popular in certain decks and yixlid jailer I know is ran in some Zoo sideboards.  I wont worry at all about "the mirror".  I know afinity is still huge and the hpergenesis deck could be quite sick.  A sideboard I had been thinking as of now-- again a rough draft, --  4 mindbreak trap says that the first hypergenesis fails.  since we can no longer cast enchantment or artifact kill from the yard, i am thinking of a 4 of basic disenchant or naturalize.  of course 4 leylines (depending on the meta)  and 3 of some other random card that hoses decks..     The trap hoses dragonstorm and cascase decks..  I was also looking at the new cabal coffers land that gives a  for every creature in your yard but I would only use it if i were to put life from the loam back in..  which is doubtful at the moment.   90% of the time I never play lands outside what were in the opening hand.  so drawing 2 would be more consistent in your build.
Another sideboard tactic i was thinking of is including a whole different deck concept.. one of course that can win without a graveyard.  I was contemplating a Zoo board, 4 Tarmogoyfs, 3 keldon marauders, 4 scythe tigers, 4 goblin guide (or savannah lion).  Also considering how fast the deck goes, I might run 2 more fetchlands if I did add 2 more.   So for another win condition or major dread return target threat, do you think its needed?  I suppose i can just add that 4th tome scour to my build and call it a day.

[akfox]

I never liked Street Wraith that much outside of Vintage and Legacy, where it can do some neat tricks on turn 1 with Bazaar or Lion's Eye Diamond.  We don't have those options here so it's less useful to me.  I prefer to just have as much stability as I can get.  That is not to say my build is correct, however.  This is just my starting point, and I'm sure a bunch of people who are better than me at Magic are working on the same problems and coming up with better solutions. 

[Almanomada]

After looking over my list, I realized the Wraiths were good for Sutured ghoul and ichorid removal in type 1 but you are right in that they really have no place in extended.  I am adding a 4th scour, 4th lore, and a 4th thug.  I am thinking of running a one of creature in my last slot as a return target and really looking at including Iona now even though mono color decks dont exist, she can still wreck most decks.  and then if i run into a monocolored deck then GG me.  Do you have any suggestions to a one of bomb of some type? 

[Anusien]

Tome Scour seems miserable.  You can't guarantee that you're going to hit any Dredge cards, so you can't really keep a hand on the strength of Tome Scour.  Heck, One with Nothing is probably better.  And you probably want some sort of continuous discard outlet; I recommend looking at Oona's Prowler or Magus of the Bazaar.

Sadistic Hypnotist is a fine Dread Return target, because it says "I haven't dredged enough to win here with damage, but I can knock the other guy out of the game and get some guys."

[Sporkcore]

Didn't Sadistic Hypnotist rotate out of extended?

[Almanomada]

Tome Scour seems miserable.  You can't guarantee that you're going to hit any Dredge cards, so you can't really keep a hand on the strength of Tome Scour.  Heck, One with Nothing is probably better.  And you probably want some sort of continuous discard outlet; I recommend looking at Oona's Prowler or Magus of the Bazaar.

Sadistic Hypnotist is a fine Dread Return target, because it says "I haven't dredged enough to win here with damage, but I can knock the other guy out of the game and get some guys."

My original build ran 4 magus and looters and it was just way to slow and too easily disrupted by every deck with creature hate which is every deck in extended.    The current build wins turn 2 a lot.  turn 3 at the latest.  tome scour may not be the best but combo with at least one inquiry or goblin lore = gg a turn 2 lore usually wins and on the rare occasion it doesnt,  then turn 3 for sure.   hypnotist also died too easy and he was a wasted dread return slot,  rather return a win condition or a creature that draw 2-3 when entering play which basically is a win condition.

[Anusien]

Chrome Mox?

[Almanomada]

I like the Mox in certain decks (goblins come to mind here) but not in my new experimental build using bloodghast as a second narc.  If anyone playtests any version of this, please let me know how well it does.  i appreciate all the opinions as well-- this thread got much more participation than I thought it would 

[jewfro]

Hypnotist is bad simply because this is not vintage dredge, this is extended, so there are creatures... Just because you end up with 5 2/2s and make them toss their hand, you might not win against say the zoo deck with a kird ape and a nacatl.
Tome scour is necessary.
I agree that looter will end up being too slow.
Normally it is good to have your dread number = your number of targets
you have 3 dread returns and 4 targets, i'd cut one target.

[Almanomada]

I will look into cutting a target. with that I believe cutting 1 sphinx to leave 2 win conditions and also cutting one flame kin zealot for an inkwell leviathon as an alternate.  Also my build is short one card already so with cutting one of the drad return targets I will have 2 slots open.  Any suggestions there?  I am realy just hoping that Zendikar has one more great card that fits seamlessly into this deck at the 2 slot.  we will see soon enough.

[Tash]

Didn't Sadistic Hypnotist rotate out of extended?

Yes. Ody rotated out of Extended forever ago.

[Anusien]

If you're desperate, One With Nothing.

[Almanomada]

if i remember correctly, One With Nothing discard you hand for  then draw one during EoT?

[Godder]

No, just discard your hand for .