Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[Stormanimagus]

The is just so little they can do about your win condition out side of smokey, and even less game 2.

Post-board they have access to Ensnaring Bridge, which is backbreaking.  Though in theory the matchup seems quite favorable, in practice it is often less so.

I agree. In practice Oath has become considerably weaker against Stax since Gush's restriction. The deck that really had a bombtastic Stax match-up was Tyrant Oath in its Hey-day because it could bounce Stax's entire board after the first Oath and then ride that to victory. Ensnaring Bridge getting you down? Bounce it. Tangle Wire getting you down? Bounce it. That's why the deck beat Stax so easily back then.

On a side note: someone earlier said that shroud dudes dodge Tangle Wire and that is simply not true as Tangle Wire doesn't target. This is a major reason that I don't think Progenitus Oath is terribly good. It still loses to Tangle Wire Recursion. The Stax match-up actually seems pretty even to me at the moment and is really only swayed in favor of Oath with the Triple-Dragon build. Unfortunately, Triple Dragons are not always great against the REST of the field and there-in lies the dilemma. What to MD? What to SB for a creature Suite?

-Storm

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@scyther
you realize that if you play iona/dragon you've got 50/50 odds of just playing a varient worse than hellkite/other haste dude (this being when you hit your haste dude first). I think your right in oathin out 2x iona if thats the dude you wanna play. I've never liked flux against shop, it a little slow for my liking and shuts off your moxen , which are very important, try EE maybe?

@ storm
personaly, of all the oath varients I've played, tyrant oath was the worst against shops (and that is a varient I helped inovate). Barring 1st turn oath(which means an easy vistory for any oath varient usualy) or fast bond, the heavey sphere effects the comon mud varients were backing could be rough on the gush engine you were packing with the light mana base. Simply put, it could be very difficult to put your oath on the table unless it was happening very early (on of the reasons I always sugested running imp seal in the deck )
ensnaring bridge is a pretty uncomon sb card in shops unless oath is really present in a meta, still between negate fow and oxidizw, you should be able to blow it.

[Scyther]

yeah i know its 50/50... thats why i still struggle on it.

2x iona is 4 turns slow after oath hitting the table and u cant have 2 at the same time in play obviously.. that why i liked the hasty dud so far but i see that it is not optimal.

and true is that shroud dudes do not get around smokestack. so if one play 2 iona main, what are god creatures against stax? 2dragon/1 karrthus?

[vroman]

after testing oath a lot past few days, here is the best solution to the "2nd creature problem" in Iona. if you run hellkite, you give them another undisrupted turn 50% of the time. if you run 2xIona, you guarantee Iona, but cant oath twice, which seems quite inefficient.
your 2nd creature is...

krosan reclamation

ie you oath up Iona, name blue, guaranteing resolution of all your future spells. then next upkeep, just mill library, flashback k-rec on yawgwill. cast yawgwill, play 15ish mana, assemble time+volt, activate, reclaim timetwister, go to next turn, twister, take inf turns, attacking for 7. this makes Iona basically 20/20 nonhaste.
also this plan lets you cut chaff like latnam, bc you can still win w Iona in hand, just less protected. so more room for disruption, ie drain. which also helps fuel the 5mana you need by main phase to yawgwill.
if you expect extirpate, then have to name black, and win counter war out of hand.

4 orchard
4 fetch
2 usea
2 trop
2 island
1 academy
5 mox
4 black lotus petal sol crypt
4 oath
4 pierce
4 force
4 drain
1 iona
1 t walk
1 t vault
1 v key
1 a recall
1 m scroll
1 regrowth
1 reclaim
1 krosan rec
1 ancient grudge
1 timetwister
1 d tutor
1 v tutor
1 m tutor
1 b storm
1 ponder
1 y will
1 t knowledge
1 rebuild
1 s d top

its also possible to win first time you oath, if you get lucky and Iona is deep down and you get all of k-rec, yawg will, and some combination of vault, key, tutors, into yard before you hit Iona.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

yeah i know its 50/50... thats why i still struggle on it.

2x iona is 4 turns slow after oath hitting the table and u cant have 2 at the same time in play obviously.. that why i liked the hasty dud so far but i see that it is not optimal.

and true is that shroud dudes do not get around smokestack. So if one play 2 iona main, what are god creatures against stax? 2dragon/1 karrthus?

obviously shroud doesn't deal with wire. But it does deal with duplicant, which is typicly my issue. I'm usualy ok with playing through wire, espicialy with pariah angel. You just need to keep smokey off the table. Honestly, I really like vromans idea of k rec. My list just changed to include it.

[Stormanimagus]

after testing oath a lot past few days, here is the best solution to the "2nd creature problem" in Iona. if you run hellkite, you give them another undisrupted turn 50% of the time. if you run 2xIona, you guarantee Iona, but cant oath twice, which seems quite inefficient.
your 2nd creature is...

krosan reclamation

ie you oath up Iona, name blue, guaranteing resolution of all your future spells. then next upkeep, just mill library, flashback k-rec on yawgwill. cast yawgwill, play 15ish mana, assemble time+volt, activate, reclaim timetwister, go to next turn, twister, take inf turns, attacking for 7. this makes Iona basically 20/20 nonhaste.
also this plan lets you cut chaff like latnam, bc you can still win w Iona in hand, just less protected. so more room for disruption, ie drain. which also helps fuel the 5mana you need by main phase to yawgwill.
if you expect extirpate, then have to name black, and win counter war out of hand.

4 orchard
4 fetch
2 usea
2 trop
2 island
1 academy
5 mox
4 black lotus petal sol crypt
4 oath
4 pierce
4 force
4 drain
1 iona
1 t walk
1 t vault
1 v key
1 a recall
1 m scroll
1 regrowth
1 reclaim
1 krosan rec
1 ancient grudge
1 timetwister
1 d tutor
1 v tutor
1 m tutor
1 b storm
1 ponder
1 y will
1 t knowledge
1 rebuild
1 s d top

its also possible to win first time you oath, if you get lucky and Iona is deep down and you get all of k-rec, yawg will, vault, key, into yard before you hit Iona.

That's actually a pretty sweet list, but do you think that Reclaim and SD Top couldn't be replaced by something? They don't seem like a huge help to me. Perhaps a Chain Of Vapor could make it into the MD over Reclaim? And Perhaps Imp Seal belongs over SD Top? Not sure, but those card choices seem a bit sub-optimal.

The rest of the deck seems like solid gold though and I look forward to giving this a test. How would you see the shop match playing out? How would you SB for that? Triple-Dragons? Something else? I applaud for your solution to the problem and look forward to further innovations on this deck.

-Storm

[vroman]

I supose could cut reclaim for something like impulse/limdul/night whisper.
s-d-top is quite good. think of it like this, for 1 mana you effectively have increased your hand size by 3 at all times. I run sdtop in any deck w time+volt. Id consider even making the reclaim slot a 2nd sdtop.
Im not a fan of imperial seal. this deck doesnt need to get oath down super early, compared to other oath builds, bc you have 12 counters to fight the early game, so your first tutor will almost always be for recall, not oath. also the end-step/upkeep flexibility of instant tutors is critical in high level vintage. Id prob run limdul over impseal if I really wanted another top-library tutor.
one of my teammates suggested cutting drain for negate, which is prob even tradeoff: [easier to cast] vs [help get 5mana for yawgwill turn]. either way is fine.

pretty sure this stomps stax. if they have chalices/null out stopping the yawgwill plan, and you dont have grudge/rebuild, you can still just attack w Iona, which is pretty hard to deal w. in general Id say this build is no better or worse g1 vs stax than any other oath concoction.
the best weapon workshop has vs oath post-side is jester cap, but boarding in 3xhellkite means you have 4 wincons.
I havnt tested many sideboarded matches yet w oath, but this is my initial assumed sb:
3 hellkite
3 pernicious deed
4 extirpate
4 mindbreak trap
1 library alexandria

pdeed is the tech right now. any control deck w access to GB should run this. it devastates stax/fish and proactively keeps other drain decks at bay, bc keeps them off vault-key, while free reign to assemble your own.
extirpate is also really, really under rated. it hoses the shit out of icky better than any other yard hate, and is super cheap uncounterable gutshot to counter top-library tutors while gaining enemy-hand information, win counterwars by ripping out drain/force, and disrupt yawgwill turns.
mindbreak beats storm better than any other reactive answer Ive run to date.
library is nice in control mirror. cant think of anything else as cheap and efficient.

[Stormanimagus]

I supose could cut reclaim for something like impulse/limdul/night whisper.
s-d-top is quite good. think of it like this, for 1 mana you effectively have increased your hand size by 3 at all times. I run sdtop in any deck w time+volt. Id consider even making the reclaim slot a 2nd sdtop.
Im not a fan of imperial seal. this deck doesnt need to get oath down super early, compared to other oath builds, bc you have 12 counters to fight the early game, so your first tutor will almost always be for recall, not oath. also the end-step/upkeep flexibility of instant tutors is critical in high level vintage. Id prob run limdul over impseal if I really wanted another top-library tutor.
one of my teammates suggested cutting drain for negate, which is prob even tradeoff: [easier to cast] vs [help get 5mana for yawgwill turn]. either way is fine.

pretty sure this stomps stax. if they have chalices/null out stopping the yawgwill plan, and you dont have grudge/rebuild, you can still just attack w Iona, which is pretty hard to deal w. in general Id say this build is no better or worse g1 vs stax than any other oath concoction.
the best weapon workshop has vs oath post-side is jester cap, but boarding in 3xhellkite means you have 4 wincons.
I havnt tested many sideboarded matches yet w oath, but this is my initial assumed sb:
3 hellkite
3 pernicious deed
4 extirpate
4 mindbreak trap
1 library alexandria

pdeed is the tech right now. any control deck w access to GB should run this. it devastates stax/fish and proactively keeps other drain decks at bay, bc keeps them off vault-key, while free reign to assemble your own.
extirpate is also really, really under rated. it hoses the shit out of icky better than any other yard hate, and is super cheap uncounterable gutshot to counter top-library tutors while gaining enemy-hand information, win counterwars by ripping out drain/force, and disrupt yawgwill turns.
mindbreak beats storm better than any other reactive answer Ive run to date.
library is nice in control mirror. cant think of anything else as cheap and efficient.

Wouldn't something like Empyrial Archangel x 2 be better at pro-actively beating Fish than Pernicious Deed? Seems like it's all but impossible for them to play around. Also, I'd say that Ravenous Trap is better against Ichorid as a single Extirpate may not stop them if they can go to a plan B. Double Extirpate is probably GG, but they can still perhaps win with Ichorid Beats or some-such.

Mindbreak Trap seems pretty solid and might be the best choice against Storm as a cheap, non-interfering way to play out your deck while protecting yourself from combo. Wouldn't some number of Oxidize be good in the SB for Chalice @2? Are you not afraid of that?

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

Double Extirpate is probably GG, but they can still perhaps win with Ichorid Beats or some-such.

The first Extirpate target is Narcomoeba since Ichy doesn't happen in multiples until the upkeep after the second Bazaar activation.  Taking Narcomoeba and then Ichy, the game is pretty much over. 

I'm not sure if this remains true with the printing of Bloodghast since it becomes possible to landfall them into play the main phase after the second Bazaar activation rather than a whole turn later.

[smasher]

extirpate is also really, really under rated. it hoses the shit out of icky better than any other yard hate, and is super cheap uncounterable gutshot to counter top-library tutors while gaining enemy-hand information, win counterwars by ripping out drain/force, and disrupt yawgwill turns.

I'm glad to see someone else say this. It seems a lot of people recently don't like it or feel something else is better. For all the reasons you stated it stands above other options. I've been playing the card for a while now and its versatility is really good compared to stuff like yixlid jailer. I bring in extirpates from the board frequently versus a variety of decks.

Now to comment on mindbreak trap. I haven't tested it yet but for a storm answer isn't it just going to get duressed prior to them blowing their load. Stifle is good but not great for the same reason as an answer. Mindbreak trap being free versus stifles 1 mana makes the trap better in that particular match. I guess I'm just wondering if something else could be better than either of these options.

[vroman]

mindbreak may be overkill, since spell pierce is going to be hardcounter vs ritual storm already 90% of the time. can you name a way to evade duress? chalice? more sd tops?
anyway the fact that mindbreak is free, makes it atleast twice as good as stifle, by my exponential measurement of mana costs.
ravenous trap is counterable. only occaisonally relevant vs icky, but unecesary vulnerability in other matches. many times Ive played vs drain, and they resolve gifts, and smugly assume I have no counters, go to their guaranteed yawg turn, only to get their time vault extirpated, while they sit w like double force/drain in hand, ready for a counter war. or they go turn 1 endstep vamp, I counter, they think Im bad and force back, I let vamp resolve, then extirpate force.
4x extirpate + tutors answers icky. I contend that extirpate is the best yard hate for icky. even if its not, its a very slim step down from whatever is actually the best, and extirpate is miles better in every other matchup. also this build of oath races icky very well, bc Iona on black stops their combo, and they cant disrupt my follow up yawgwill all-in.

deed is way more versatile than archangel. it answers chalice@2, it pre-emptively stops enemy vault-key, it wraths, it shatterstorms. it does everything. if you havent played w deed in awhile, refresh your memory, it fucking rocks.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I feel kind of weird saying this, and obviously the card would be better with more bombs, but does anyone else really not mind reclaim main? while playing gush, I sort of considered regrowth a demon tutor that searches you yard, and I've been using reclaim as the vamp equivalent (with exception of declaring a target). Obviously this deck is a little bit of an issue with the old CA as is, but was anyone else not been against this card main because of plays like: recall->fow->reclaim recall-> draw with top, or activate oath->upkeep reclaim time walk?

[vroman]

thats pretty much why I ran it. also helps in corner cases to not deck when running the yawg will all-in.

[Killane]

Questions:

How many match-ups are best with Double Iona vs Iona + Dragon? It seems to me:

Tezz: Iona + Dragon < Iona alone, simply for the fact that giving them 4 turns to duress, Thoughtseize, Will, tutor and Key-Vault seems too long to me. (It was when I was testing the R&D build I originally suggested, although that build was the best vs Tezz when the R&D's were available unless I got the R&D within two turns of Oathing it often gave them enough time to win). Iona + 1 dragon gives you a 2-3 turn clock and a 50% chance of shutting them down mostly on Oath #1, with 100% chance on turn two.

Fish: Iona + Dragon (as they generally have removal in multiple colors)

TPS: Iona alone (Iona in play should = game loss for them as the won't be able to Tutor for the singleton bounce spell and if they're lucky enough to draw it you'll likely have the counter back-up)

Stax: Iona + Dragon by a long shot (Iona being not all that good against Stax in general)

Ichorid: this is a tough call IMHO. I think Iona + Dragon wins out here due to the presence of Fatestitcher Ichorid, in which case both black is their win and Blue is their removal for Iona, who doesn't hit their draw engine at all. Once again a matchup that the R&D build would be better at if it was consistent enough (which it isn't).

MBC (should it experience a resurgence), Elf Combo , ANT (should they have any kind of metagame presence): Iona alone, obviously. Playing magic by yourself isn't much fun, but you're not going to loose.

it seems to me that Iona + a Dragon maindeck with the other two Dragons in the board might be the best way to go.

@ the lists running 2 Iona plus Rec, Key/Vault, and YawgWin: how often does it happen that you Oath up Iona and don;t get the stuff you need in the yard? I could see this coming up allot, and then you have the issue of a 4 turn clock, no 2nd Oath, and few ways to get what you need since you can't Oath again and many of your tutors may already be played or dumped in the yard.

Yes, I agree Iona wins games by herself, but maybe like a certain other Oath Angel she needs a Draconic friend to really be "that good".

[jap_foil]

Ok I`m just coming back to vintage after taking a few years off. I`ve been reading what everyone has posted, and all of your decks look nothing like the one I run.LOL. For the most part I don`t play in any tournaments just with my friends. I have played around 30 games with this list, and have won 27 of them. Let me know what you all think.
4 oath
1 regrowth
1 gaeas blessing
1 crop rotation
4 duress
1 imperial seal
1 d.tutor
1 v.tutor
4 lim-dul`s vault
1 chain of vapor
4 negate
1 ancestral recall
4 force of will
1 brainstorm
1 intuition
1 time walk
1 ponder
3 mana leak
1 jet
1emerald
1 sapphire
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
1 hellkite
1 iona
1 akroma

4 misty rainforest
2 sea
4 trop
2 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 orchard

[vroman]

@ the lists running 2 Iona plus Rec, Key/Vault, and YawgWin: how often does it happen that you Oath up Iona and don;t get the stuff you need in the yard? I could see this coming up allot, and then you have the issue of a 4 turn clock, no 2nd Oath, and few ways to get what you need since you can't Oath again and many of your tutors may already be played or dumped in the yard.

you misunderstand. there is only 1 Iona, the 2nd oath trigger puts whole library into yard, so your guaranteed to have everything you need in there. and you dont need to worry about yawgwill being countered, bc you'll have Iona on blue.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

but you do still have to look out for things like extirpate or diabolic edict.

[Killane]

@ the lists running 2 Iona plus Rec, Key/Vault, and YawgWin: how often does it happen that you Oath up Iona and don;t get the stuff you need in the yard? I could see this coming up allot, and then you have the issue of a 4 turn clock, no 2nd Oath, and few ways to get what you need since you can't Oath again and many of your tutors may already be played or dumped in the yard.

you misunderstand. there is only 1 Iona, the 2nd oath trigger puts whole library into yard, so your guaranteed to have everything you need in there. and you dont need to worry about yawgwill being countered, bc you'll have Iona on blue.

I'm sorry I misred the list and could've sworn these were two.

Maybe I'm dense but it seems to me that if you dump the whole library in the yard and then cast Krosan Reclaimation, you end up in a situation where you HAVE to have Sensei's Top active in order to win, as it's the only way to prevent yourself from decking while taking 3 more turns to beat them to death with Iona. It obviously won;t be an issue to get the top out during the YawgWin, but it seems to me this deck is overexposed to graveyard hate which is so common in this format. Iona is on blue. What do you do about an active Leyline, or a Ravenous Trap is response to the YawgWin? you don't have time to find more coutners once the Library is in the yard, as you have to YawgWin in order to keep from decking yourself in extra turns.

It seems to me that this list, while having a lot of objective raw power, is too vulnerable to the 5-7 pieces of yard hate thatthe majority of players are running these days to combat the Zombie Menace.

[Valorale]

Maybe I'm dense but it seems to me that if you dump the whole library in the yard and then cast Krosan Reclaimation, you end up in a situation where you HAVE to have Sensei's Top active in order to win, as it's the only way to prevent yourself from decking while taking 3 more turns to beat them to death with Iona.

Well the way I see it, you need 5 mana, dump your library into your GY on the 2nd oath. Cast Krosan Reclamation and only take the Yawg since the card says take up to two target cards. Draw phase, draw the Yawg .. if Yawg resolves (which it should since Iona is on blue) you win. All your artifact mana comes to play, you cast vault/key and simply timetwister.

I agree however there are problems here, you need 5 mana, GY hate is rampant, all your opponent needs to do is diabolic or swords Iona and if you dont have counter backup, youre in trouble.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@killane
you only target y will with k rec so your sure you draw it
then you used the artifact sources and tolrian ro assemble key vault
then reclaim twister. or cast twister
then do 7/7 beatz under keyvault combo.

If you suspect yard hate and your not packing fow or something in hand, don't mill your self.

[vroman]

no plan is invincible. both in theory and in testing, this is a strong plan.
you are guaranteed to have the combo set up and ready to go, and guaranteed protection vs one of counterspells or black yard hate. many decks will be running one or the other or neither, in which case you CANT lose.
vs decks running both, if you can win a counter war, name black.
as much as I hate to it might be right to cut ancient grudge for latnam legacy, in order to get around extirpate
if you cant reliably win counter war w current hand, name blue, and if they run extirpate, after oath resolves, you have priority, immediately announce kros-rec, targeting both yawg will and twister. if they extirpate yawgie, you can then resolve twister and are no worse off than when you started, still smashing 7 w 80% of their spells dead, and now a full grip of trump-counters. if they extirpate twister, then you yawgwil, play time+volt, reclaim->latnam, attack 7, take extra turn. draw latnam, attack 7, take extra turn. next upkeep, latnam anything you have in hand, draw it again, attack 7 ftw. this isnt the worst, since latnam does help when Iona is in hand.

if they have edict: if they edict before yawgie resolves, then Iona just gets shuffled back w twister, and you oath again next turn while taking inf turns. if they edict after yawgie resolves, you will have infinity counters at your disposal.
swordsplow/ravenous trap, are atleast counterable. so if you name blue w Iona, ANY counter in hand autowins the counter war.
furthermore few decks run these cards main. post side if you predict black yard hate, that for some reason you cant deal w, then you can side out k-rec plan and go hellkites.

so extirpate actually CANT beat you if you play right (if you run latnam). edict is a non-issue. ravenous trap and plowshares are threats, but if you wait for a single counterspell, you cant lose.
so, in the end, if you can stick oath, and not lose to the enemy's strategy in the mean time, I assert this deck has best post-oath chances of any build since gush-tyrant.

[Stormanimagus]

pdeed is the tech right now. any control deck w access to GB should run this. it devastates stax/fish and proactively keeps other drain decks at bay, bc keeps them off vault-key, while free reign to assemble your own.

Doesn't Empyrial Archangel x2 also devastate Fish Pro-actively? And, in your experience, have you found triple-Dragon to be insufficient in beating Stax? Why then is Pernicious Deed good for this deck if you must resolve and use it before resolving Oath (as, presumably you'll be blowing it up for at least 2 much of the time)

extirpate is also really, really under rated. it hoses the shit out of icky better than any other yard hate, and is super cheap uncounterable gutshot to counter top-library tutors while gaining enemy-hand information, win counterwars by ripping out drain/force, and disrupt yawgwill turns.

Most Ichy players I've played against say that it's pretty easy to play around Extirpate, but they have a hard time beating Leyline or Jailer or Ravenous Trap and a near impossible time beating some combination of those. Extirpate hoses 1 card, but they can always just go on another line of attack. I do agree that Extirpate has applications in other match-ups and that makes it reasonably strong but I do think it is inferior to other Ichy hate out there for that match-up.

mindbreak beats storm better than any other reactive answer Ive run to date.

I might actually agree with you on this for THIS deck, but, in general, Arcane Laboratory is more back-breaking for TPS than just about any other card out there. They cannot find answers as easily and it improves your counter-magic. Iona + Lab is probably GG against TPS in almost all instances.

library is nice in control mirror. cant think of anything else as cheap and efficient.

This choice seems a bit loose. You don't really have a reliable way to keep 7 cards in your hand like decks like Standstill do and you want to make sure you hit G for Oath early in the game. I don't see how this card is necessary in the SB and I really think it could be something else.

Those are my thoughts on the SB for now. I really think Oxidize or Ingot Chewer belong in the SB to beat Chalice@2 as you really won't get much of anything to happen with this deck without Oath on the board. Chalice is rarer to see these days (even in Stax lists), but the good players will run it MD and you have to be prepared to see it. You need an answer to it, and I'm not 100% sold that Pernicious Deed is THAT answer. Seems like Opening with Sphere Turn 1 and then Chalice turn 2 (paying 5 for it) is pretty back-breaking and makes Deed very hard to resolve (2GB is tough to get for any Vintage deck). I'd rather have a card like Oxidize or Chewer that should never cost more than 1G or 1R to resolve and destroy a Chalice with.

-Storm

[vroman]

Doesn't Empyrial Archangel x2 also devastate Fish Pro-actively? And, in your experience, have you found triple-Dragon to be insufficient in beating Stax? Why then is Pernicious Deed good for this deck if you must resolve and use it before resolving Oath (as, presumably you'll be blowing it up for at least 2 much of the time)

pro-active means you are doing something to stop their strategy before it happens. re-active is something that stops their strategy after it is rolling. if they have meddling mage on oath, empyrial archangel doesnt help you. if they are clocking you down w tgoyfs, frequently they kill you on their next attack after you resolve oath. pdeed mops up their disruption and aggro guys, so you have breathing room to get run your strategy.
re: stax. ok clearly if you have oath out, you just oath and kill them. if they have chalice@2 and welder tricks going, pdeed wipes their board, so you can proceed w your plan.

Most Ichy players I've played against say that it's pretty easy to play around Extirpate, but they have a hard time beating Leyline or Jailer or Ravenous Trap and a near impossible time beating some combination of those. Extirpate hoses 1 card, but they can always just go on another line of attack. I do agree that Extirpate has applications in other match-ups and that makes it reasonably strong but I do think it is inferior to other Ichy hate out there for that match-up.

if you say so. I like extirpate. sideboards are pretty flexible these days.

I might actually agree with you on this for THIS deck, but, in general, Arcane Laboratory is more back-breaking for TPS than just about any other card out there. They cannot find answers as easily and it improves your counter-magic. Iona + Lab is probably GG against TPS in almost all instances.

again you confuse reactive/proactive. arcane lab is proactive answer. I said mindtrap is best reactive answer. tapping out for 3 mainphase vs storm feels amateurish.

Those are my thoughts on the SB for now. I really think Oxidize or Ingot Chewer belong in the SB to beat Chalice@2

orly you would run ingot chewer in oath?

[Grand Inquisitor]

4 orchard
...
1 s d top

@Vroman, since there's no plan B, I'd think you'd want more Sensei's Divining Tops.  If you draw into your Iona with this configuration you really gotta go after brainstorm or timetwister.  Has this been an issue much during testing?

Also, Mystical Tutor looks weak.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Don't you think the synergy between duress and Iona (see hand before you choose color) is worth capitalizing on? I'd be inclined to run duress over manadrain in Vroman's last list.

This is a really enjoyable discussion to be following, by the way.

[meadbert]

Cephalid Coliseum is a good way to get Oath creatures out of hand.

[Stormanimagus]

4 orchard
...
1 s d top

@Vroman, since there's no plan B, I'd think you'd want more Sensei's Divining Tops.  If you draw into your Iona with this configuration you really gotta go after brainstorm or timetwister.  Has this been an issue much during testing?

Also, Mystical Tutor looks weak.

I think if you draw Iona in the opener you just have to combo out with the some sort of counter back-up and then go the Timetwister route after resolving Vault/Key Combo. This would shuffle Iona back into the Lib and allow you to win-out from their. I suppose you could also use BS if the 2U was too much to assemble all in one turn, but then you might run into decking problems. This plan is actually pretty fool-proof and I applaud Vroman for coming up with it. Kudos!

[pierce]

emperial archangel is not game over vs fish. all bug lists run diabolic edict. I ran perish at the ICBM opens and perish wrecked those thinking angel was GG.

by contrast, deed is very tricky. obv the bug player will side in grips to deal with the oath anyway, so you can't sit on the deed. however, it seems pretty solid overall.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

4 orchard
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1 s d top

@Vroman, since there's no plan B, I'd think you'd want more Sensei's Divining Tops.  If you draw into your Iona with this configuration you really gotta go after brainstorm or timetwister.  Has this been an issue much during testing?

Also, Mystical Tutor looks weak.

Youcan still win off an oath activation with your dude in your hand, its just more balls to the wall. With out the chalices its a lot easier to find your shuffle my my dude back in card. I did a bit of testing with list last night, and it wasn't a big issue.
mystical is a card I never really liked much in oath but with out tfk or gush, oath really has problems drawing cards. Mystical gets recall, or regrowth for it, or twister/y-will if its a good time for it. presonaly, I wouldn't mind cutting it for something that doesn't lose CA. Maybe even deep anal if it tests well.

[Grand Inquisitor]

mystical is a card I never really liked much in oath but with out tfk or gush, oath really has problems drawing cards

There's always the option of, you know, running a draw spell 

Youcan still win off an oath activation with your dude in your hand

Trying to resolve 5 mana worth of spells during your turn so you don't deck is not what I consider a plan-B, more like a plan-'this is the only shit left'.  However, just going the regular vault/key route is perfectly acceptable and something I had overlooked.