Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[mr.grim]

@matt... over all iyo. If you are running 2 fatties and one of them is iona ,what is your call on the second one? Would your choice differ between tv/k builds and no tv/k builds?
imo.... tv/k builds id run a hellkite
     ....non- tv/k builds tyrant?
and what is your fav. lion? lol

Please at least attempt to use full sentences and correct grammar when posting.  -DA

[voltron00x]

@matt... over all iyo. If you are running 2 fatties and one of them is iona ,what is your call on the second one? Would your choice differ between tv/k builds and no tv/k builds?
imo.... tv/k builds id run a hellkite
     ....non- tv/k builds tyrant?
and what is your fav. lion? lol

I think you would want something with Haste, such as Hellkite, b/c at least that way you know you're swinging for at least 15 damage after the 2nd oath activation.

I don't think there's any reason at all to avoid Key/Vault in Oath.  For example, my list is running:  4 Impulse, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Lim-Dul's Vault, Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder, Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall, and Thirst for Knowledge.  You see plenty of cards in a deck like that, so even w/out Tinker, its very easy to assemble Key / Vault.  In fact in testing I win 30-40% of my games using Key/Vault. 

Tyrant more or less demands a specific set of cards, I wouldn't try to use it unless the deck is geared for it, and if you're going for combo Oath, the Vroman list seems like the way to go.

[Killane]

The problem with Tendrils is that you need a successful oath with your library in the GY and a successful yawg cast. If all those peices have fallen in place, I dont know how you havnt won already with an abundance of mana and the entire library at your disposal. Its just seems like a winmore card to me.

I don't see the problem, with a single Iona and Krosan Reclamation you can ensure that all the pieces are where they need to be. Whilst you are right to point out that you need to successfully cast and activate Oath, I would still forego the Vault combo in favour of Tendrils/Krosan.

th problem is that Vault can win without Oath. Vault can win if Oath is Extirpated. Tendrils?? It woudl be very, VERY difficult to generate a lethal tendrils without Oathing first.

Trust me, I'm the one who posted the Tendrils list. Vault is better.

[MirariKnight]

Just wanted to add something about how I conceptualize the (Iona Reclamation) deck, hopefully this makes some of my comments, especially regarding Tendrils more clear.

This deck is basically a Tezzeret deck. It plays entirely similar to the usual Drain Tezz builds except it has good mana flexibility because of Orchard. In place of Confidant and Tinker > Dude you run Oath + Iona and K. Reclamation. Oath = Confidant in terms of being a CA engine - getting Iona out is ridiculous card advantage, something like a 20ish for 1, and it also enable your combo kill. However, just like in Bob Tezz, "confidant" is not always the right play and often you want to just play the control + tutors + drop the combo when you have an opening. This deck is NOT like the Oath lists that run Haste guys. It is much more like Drain Tendrils/Tezz. Usually your first tutor is for Recall, not Oath, and the primary game plan when I play is to resolve Vault/Key. Oath is a good tool to enable this, much like Bob, but is not the primary objective. This is why:
a) This deck is basically only good because of Vault/Key
b) Tendrils is inferior because it requires you to always go for plan B (Oathing) since it isn't a plan A in itself.

Feel free to disagree but this is how I've played the deck and it feels like this is how it wants to be played.

Matt, I understand why you run Hellkite but if you're going to run Vault/Key anyway, doesn't the Iona Reclamation plan just seem strictly better (win on the 2nd Oath and occasionally the first, rather than semi-winning then winning on the 3rd turn)? Just curious as to why you'd prefer to Oath up Hellkite mainboard 1/2 the time (perhaps this has to do with the prevalence of Stax where you play, which singleton Iona is admittedly terrible against).

[Red Irish]

@MirariKnight and Killane

We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I'm aware that my approach is single-minded, but I prefer to add cards to help me get Oath in play as quickly as possible rather than include the Vault combo. There are advantages and disadvantages when including or excluding a second win condition. I fully understand your position and I may be wrong. In any event, we can all agree that Iona has signalled the return of Oath.  

[zeromancer]

I also disagree with the hybrid theory propagated here. If you are saying that your primary strategy is Vault/Key, then I don't see any use in running oath as a second win plan. Oath as a strategy eats up a lot of slots, and none of those cards do have synergy with your primary strategy vault/key. On the contrary: both strategies compete for Tutors. And the cards the oath strategy is replacing, like Tinker, Confidants, Gifts etc. are crads that have synergy with Vault/Key and provide alternative ways to victory as well. To make things worse running oath as a second win plan even disrupts your own manabase, because even though orachard produces mana of any color, you can never use it carelessly because it is a potential wincondition for your opponent. If you think Tezz is missing the mana-flexibility of Orchard, maybe City of Brass could fix this problem. I'm not saying oath is a bad strategy. But I think to mix up strategies that exist parallel to each other within the given deck, without having any synergy, is.

[voltron00x]

Matt, I understand why you run Hellkite but if you're going to run Vault/Key anyway, doesn't the Iona Reclamation plan just seem strictly better (win on the 2nd Oath and occasionally the first, rather than semi-winning then winning on the 3rd turn)? Just curious as to why you'd prefer to Oath up Hellkite mainboard 1/2 the time (perhaps this has to do with the prevalence of Stax where you play, which singleton Iona is admittedly terrible against).

Whether or not you're running Iona / Reclamation shouldn't determine whether or not you run key / vault.  As I've said, I win 30-40% of my games (depending on the match-up) through key/Vault independant of activating Oath.  My build is very good at finding Oath + Orchard (4 Impulse, Ponder, Brainstorm, Mystical, Vamp, Demonic, Thirst, Top, Recall, LDV) and often in doing so you will also be able to assemble Key/Vault.  Most people will counter Oath whether or not you have an Orchard, in my experience, since you could easily have the Orchard in hand and they obviously can't counter that.  So many games come down to baiting out counters with Oath, and then assembling Key/Vault for the win.  In G2/G3 situations against blue decks, I have 2 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 TS, 1 Duress, and 4 Force of Will, which is plenty of ammo to get my spells to resolve. 

Similarly if I'm able to find Will before Oathing once (or after, if it doesn't end up in your graveyard), I can often assemble Key/Vault just from whats in the graveyard using Will (for instance, one piece plus one tutor).  Generally speaking, if I've resolved Oath + Orchard, I'm in the driver's seat and my Will is going to resolve.  Its also quite feasible to control what creature I'm oathing into, using Vamp or LDV in response to the Oath trigger (and either of those can be found using other tutors or Impulse/Top/Brainstorm etc).

There were 7 people playing Stax decks at this tournament, out of 53, but Stax is played by some of the best players in the room.  Several other Stax players were in contention in the last round.  At the NYSE II, there were only 4 Stax players out of 39, but 3 made the T8, so I wanted my deck to be prepared for that match-up in G1.  I'm also concerned that people are just going to start playing Diabolic Edict to kill Iona, and my deck has resistance to that, as well as resistance to random stuff like miser's Tormod's Crypt game 1, which the Vroman deck lacks.

The real question you have to ask is this:  how many games do I lose when I get Oath active (since, in theory, the benefit of the Iona plan is that you win every game you get Oath active, except against Stax)?  At the NYSE III tournament, and in 16 testing games against Dragon and Tezz in the days before the tournament, I never lost once I got Oath active.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

If you are saying that your primary strategy is Vault/Key, then I don't see any use in running oath as a second win plan. Oath as a strategy eats up a lot of slots, and none of those cards do have synergy with your primary strategy vault/key. On the contrary: both strategies compete for Tutors.  And the cards the oath strategy is replacing, like Tinker, Confidants, Gifts etc. are crads that have synergy with Vault/Key and provide alternative ways to victory as well. . . . I'm not saying oath is a bad strategy. But I think to mix up strategies that exist parallel to each other within the given deck, without having any synergy, is.

Do you honestly not see the synergy in the following line of play:

you oath up Iona, name blue, guaranteing resolution of all your future spells. then next upkeep, just mill library, flashback k-rec on yawgwill. cast yawgwill, play 15ish mana, assemble time+volt, activate, reclaim timetwister, go to next turn, twister, take inf turns, attacking for 7.

So Tinker has more synergy when it only gets you one piece, as opposed to Oath which gets you both pieces, shuts down all your opponent's blue spells, and gives you a 7/7 flying win condition?  Confidant is actually anti-synergistic with vault/key, because you often risk dying to your own Bobs when you key out.

This deck has won multiple tournaments--I don't think you can dismiss it as lacking synergy.

[zeromancer]

Do you honestly not see the synergy in the following line of play:

you oath up Iona, name blue, guaranteing resolution of all your future spells. then next upkeep, just mill library, flashback k-rec on yawgwill. cast yawgwill, play 15ish mana, assemble time+volt, activate, reclaim timetwister, go to next turn, twister, take inf turns, attacking for 7.

So Tinker has more synergy when it only gets you one piece, as opposed to Oath which gets you both pieces, shuts down all your opponent's blue spells, and gives you a 7/7 flying win condition?  Confidant is actually anti-synergistic with vault/key, because you often risk dying to your own Bobs when you key out.

Oath does not get you a single piece of the combo. After resolving two oath triggers the oath player should have won anyway. Weather with attacking creatures, Reclamation/Will or a combo with Tidespout Tyrant doesn't matter. Vault/Key is unnecessary in each of this cases.

This deck has won multiple tournaments--I don't think you can dismiss it as lacking synergy.

What has the fact that this deck has won some tournaments to do with anything? I could argue that Tezz has won way more tournaments.

[Thegreatgonzo]

@ zeromancer : it all comes down to the neverending question : null rod or vault/key?
both have great synergies with oath of druids : the former because you're playing with the cheapest win condition ever ( ), the latter because one of oath decks main problem is struggling for a decent secondary win condition.
I think key vault is better because :

a) it fits the shell better (playing with lots of tutors and diggers and such)
b) when facing creatures/hate decks, null rod won't stall the game like it's supposed to.
c) it gives a way for oath to play "the real game", rather than being some kind of meta/rogue deck.

I honestly think that "Vroman oath" is the best way to go with oath of druids since the monstruosity we used to call "tyrant oath" (best blue combo deck ever, yeah!).

Just my 2 cents

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Oath does not get you a single piece of the combo. After resolving two oath triggers the oath player should have won anyway. Weather with attacking creatures, Reclamation/Will or a combo with Tidespout Tyrant doesn't matter. Vault/Key is unnecessary in each of this cases.

Iona, on the 1st turn after oathing, gives you a commanding advantage against every deck except Stax.  It actually disrupts your opponent and stops them from simply goldfishing you as they can when you Oath up Hellkite 1st turn and just hit them for damage.  Also, there are times when you will not win after 2x Oathing with double Hellkite; for example, when your opponent has Sphinx in play.  Tyrant requires other cards in hand to combo out, and doesn't protect you the same way Iona does.  Adding vault/key to Iona gives you both disruption and a 2 Oath clock.  I'm not sure how you fail to see that Oath-->Reclamation-->Will gets you Vault Key (unless you are saying it doesn't get you a single piece of the combo because it gets you both pieces).

What has the fact that this deck has won some tournaments to do with anything? I could argue that Tezz has won way more tournaments.

It shows that the deck works.  Consequently, I question your dismissing the deck on the basis of the claim that the cards in the deck do not go well together.  Number of Tezz wins is irrelevant--I never argued that Tezz was a bad strategy, as you did about this deck.

Furthermore, as others have noted, the ability to win either by Oathing or simply Vault+Keying gives the deck flexibility and allows you to dodge hate for either individual strategy, much like Tinker-->Robot does in Tezz, but Oathing up Iona is actually even stronger against most decks.

[Fraggle]

You know I don't play that much anymore, but what isn't this card played in oath?

[Sporkcore]

Defense of the heart is way to expensive to cast and is way too conditional to cast in Oath imo.

[vroman]

oath is a good back up to vaultvolt bc its extremely cheap, tho slower.
plan A) work hard setting up tutors, protection and/or yawgwill to get vaultvolt and win immediately
plan B) cast 1G enchantment, pass turn, severely disrupt them following turn, win turn after that.

as opposed to tez which is
plan A) work hard setting up tutors, protection and/or yawgwill to get vaultvolt and win immediately
plan B) cast U2 sorcery, pass multiple turns while attacking, w no innate disruption

[Killane]

You know I don't play that much anymore, but what isn't this card played in oath?

It's twice as expensive and more conditional than Oath and is defeated by all of the same hate cards.

Oath needs a plan B, not a worse secondary plan A.

Or it needs to be a plan B, to a more powerful, not less powerful, combo (Key/Vault)

[TheShop]

@ Vroman:  IDK about your last assessment, because getting oath on the board is hard work.  Without Oath, you are playing Tezz without the Tezz (leaving you with one less tutor/win condition).  I am not saying Tezz is better, just observing that Oath isn't always in hand/play.

[vroman]

putting tez main is viable option as some of my teammates have done w the list.
putting oath on board is no harder than resolving any other 2c spell

[AmbivalentDuck]

You can even think about this as a straight-up evolution of Tez: Oath is unrestricted, locks your opponent out of the game, and finds/casts/protects vault-key for you as compared to Tinker which "only" produces a fatty with lifelink and vigilance.  Oh, and it lets you run 4 copies of a 5 color land, enabling powerful sweepers like Pernicious Deed and Balance.

[neocronx]

You can even think about this as a straight-up evolution of Tez: Oath is unrestricted, locks your opponent out of the game, and finds/casts/protects vault-key for you as compared to Tinker which "only" produces a fatty with lifelink and vigilance.  Oh, and it lets you run 4 copies of a 5 color land, enabling powerful sweepers like Pernicious Deed and Balance.

I think this is an interesting way to look at it.  Tinker is a RESTRICTED 3 mana, 3+ turn plan B that requires an artifact in play (of which you have quite a few) and Oath is a 2 mana UNRESTRICTED Plan B that only needs 1 more turn to essentially lock out the game and requires a 4 of land or an opponent to have a creature(which in this meta with Bobs running around is more common in matchups where it wasn't previously).  While Tinker is a more powerful card overall, I fell that with the printing of Iona making the first oath activation so damaging Oath might be the more powerful Plan B strategy.

Have any Oath decks run Balance recently?  I used to really like it back when I played ICBM Oath but could never find slots for it.  I think Pernicious Deed is much better right now because it can hold off opposing Vault strategies if you can get it to stick, makes for a tempting target for Quasali Pridemage and other enchantment hate, leaving Oath more unmolested and just overall more useful.  Balance rarely provides that blowout turn 1 though that Deed could never compare to.

On the issue of Defense of the Heart, I feel the mana cost is just too high and it's win is just to slow for Vintage.  Compare it to Tezz, which for 1 mana more, in a better color, straight wins in the same time frame instead of dropping creatures out.  I have been looking at it for a casual/competitive multiplayer deck that would drop in Kiki/Pestermite or more likely Iona/Painter's Servant.  Triggering the 3 creatures clause is still a lot of work in multiplayer though.

[Killane]

@ Vroman

why aren't you running Gift's Ungiven? you have two two-card combo's that pretty much lead to a win in the deck, along with Regrowth and Reclaim you can guarantee that you will get the whole combo online. It seems to me to be a list that begs for Gifts.

@ those discussing Tendrils instead of vault.

I goldfished my Iona Tendrils list about 25 times today looking to win without resolving Oath. It happened 4 times by turn 5 (once on turn two, but I had DT, YawgWin, Ancestral, and Lotus in that hand), and the rest of the times I stopped goldfishing at turn nine with no possible line of play to a 20 pt tendrils showing up (maybe once or twice by turn seven, but I can;t remember the last time

I then changed the list to the same as Vroman's list, except cutting the maindeck ancient grudge for a Gifts Ungiven. I proceeded to goldfish 25 times with the goal of assembling Key+ Vault without Oath. It happened before turn 5....



 21 times. (indidentillu though I'm not sure of the exact number of times at least 4 of these times involved instantly winning after resolving Gifts. seriously that card is the nuts in this build)

In each case, Oath was possible by turn 3 a majority of the time, usually with counter back up, but my purpose was specifically to test the non-Oath plan.

Given that the Rebuild exists in the list, there are no concerns with using the attack phase to win. I can't think of a playable Vintage creature other than Hellkite that blocks Iona and lives, and Hellkite is most certainly not immune to bounce spells, which is why I also included a second bounce in the list I ended up with (i'm debating which one to run between Wipe Away, Repeal, and Echoing Truth).

While I am still running the Tendrils list, I am doing so because I am holding on to the theory that the DCI is going to do something about Vault and becasue I currently own neither a Vault nor a Key, nor do any of my local stores have one, nor can I make a list under 10 proxies (whcih is what most local tournaments allow) with Key and Vault work. The Key-Vault plan is superior in evry way. Once you Will, you rebuild to get rid of any Null Rods/Pithing Needles/Chalice at 1, and then play the KeyVault plan. It's also about 1,000,000 time better as an alternative to Oath than the Tendrils plan.

The only thing going for the Tendrils plan is that it's more elegant. It just, Feels cooler to win with Tendrils, so if you'd rather feel cool when winning then win more often, go for it- it's still very very powerful.

[vroman]

@ambivduck
I like that summary, and truthfully, I think this deck would not be that much worse if oath were restricted, if timevault remained unchanged. in fact it occurs to me, that if this deck is proven to be the best way to abuse time vault, and DCI continues to obstinately refuse to nerf vault, then the next half assed measure they might take could be to restrict oath. dont care!

@killane
gifts is possible. difficult to resolve protected wo drain mana. also I typically insist on having recoup in any deck w gifts, so that endstep gifts results in guaranteed yawgwin. that would prob require a volcanic island. I will see if theres any room for this.
marit lage is the only other flying blocker w 8+ toughness



important updates to the list. I have cut latnams legacy for flash of insight, on Blaine Christiansen's suggestion. this way I only need 4 mana by mainphase to krosrec win. this makes much smoother ideal line of play ie:
T1: mox+orchard-> oath
T2: Iona on blue, draw step, land drop
T3: mill library, flashback k-rec on lotus and yawg. draw either. make land drop. flashback flash insight for 1, draw other piece. play lotus, play yawg, play lotus, moxen, vaultvolt, activate, twister. win.

by being able to k-rec for one cheaper, then the incidents of Iona being in hand are less severe, so one less shuffle back option is forgivable, so latnam gets the boot for being really mediocre and no longer vitally synergistic.
-I have moved stripmine main over tolarian academy. counterintuitive, but only need 4 mana to win, means academy contribution less dramaticaly helpful, and in rare cases where no artifacts around, would rather have land that taps for anything. I lost a game in local tourney on thursday where any other land but academy would have won. in stripmines place in board I added extirpate#2, to shore up dredge match a bit
lastly, I cut fire/ice for faerie conclave, to increase land count vs mana denial, while still keeping an lt win. I choose conclave over factory, since it can fly over tgoyf, and less likely to face 3+ toughness flying blocker. ability to kill meddler/qasali is less important than having mana in general case.
I havent tested the gifts plan yet, but if so would probably cut the 2 thoughtseize for gifts+recoup, and the forest out for volcanic island.

so current list is
4 misty rainforest
4 forbidden orchard
2 trop island
2 under sea
1 island
1 volc island
1 stripmine
1 faerie conclave
1 library alexandria
5 mox
4 lotus petal sol crypt
4 oath
4 pierce
4 force
1 pernicious deed
1 sensei top
1 vault
1 volt
1 iona
1 recall
1 time walk
1 gifts ungiven
1 recoup
1 regrowth
1 merchant scroll
1 bstorm
1 ponder
1 m tutor
1 v tutor
1 d tutor
1 yawgwin
1 rebuild
1 krosan rec
1 flash insight
1 thirst knowledge
1 timetwister

if I were to add a 61st card, it would be either forest or tolarian academy

[Killane]

this list seems absurdly good. Can't wait to pick up a key and start playing it!

[zeromancer]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

[voltron00x]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

This seems highly unlikely to me, at least for a long time... many more people would have to pick up Oath and start winning with it.

As far as I know, Oath of Druids has won two tournaments with more than 33 players this entire YEAR (the April Blue Bell and the NYSE III), excluding Tezz decks with an Oath SB.  Admittedly Iona Oath may change things, but has anyone besides me won a tournament with more than 33 players with Oath post-Zendikar?

[vroman]

Iona oath would remain tier 1, in spite of an oath restriction.

[MirariKnight]

Oath restriction wouldn't be too terrible, but really the problem at that point is pretty obviously Time Vault.

[ciosby]

Oath restriction wouldn't be too terrible, but really the problem at that point is pretty obviously Time Vault.

oath will be restrict in vintage???

[MirariKnight]

Oath restriction wouldn't be too terrible, but really the problem at that point is pretty obviously Time Vault.

oath will be restrict in vintage???

No, we're speaking hypothetically.

[AmbivalentDuck]

As a quick caution, we can't discuss B/R list changes in this forum.  Let's try to avoid red text in this thread

[Mantis]

I have a couple of question regarding the sideboard. I play Vromans exact build as it looks the nut high and besides maybe the Faerie Conclave there really isn't anything that appears to need tweaks.
My sideboard (largely untested due to time constraints) is this:
2 Trapmakers Snare
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pithing Needle
3 Oxidize
3 Hellkite Overlord
1 Wasteland
2 open slots, perhaps something against Aven Mindcensor?!

As you can see, there is lots of Ichorid hate. Trapmakers Snare to find Ravenous Trap, Pithing Needle, Wasteland and Tormods Crypt make it hard for my Ichorid. Keeping the hate varied makes it very hard for them to attack from a specific angle.
Trapmakers Snare also doubles as hate for Storm finding Mindbreak Trap, I do not want Deed and the bounce spells against them anyway so this looks like a nice solution. I am aware that Mindbreak Trap is not amazing against Storm, but it's a nice disruption card nonetheless and certainly looks better than having maindeck Deed.
The singleton Wasteland can come in against decks that I'm sure will not remove my Iona anyway and can replace the Faerie Conclave, this doubles as Ichorid hate as well. Additionally, it's nice to have an extra land against decks that aim to disrupt your mana such as Fish and Stax. Hellkite Overlord looks like an elegant solution to both Jesters Cap/Earwig Squad/Sadistic Sacrement and it's also better against Stax and Fish where you are going to have a hard time pulling off your combo through all the mana disruption.

Specific questions:
How do I board in the mirror? I have no experience with this matchup and can imagine you take out a number of Oaths. Wasteland looks like a nice way to win the Orchard battle. I also have no idea what you would board in, Hellkite Overlords?
What do I do with the open slots?
How should I board against Tezzeret?

Thanks in advance!