Zendikar Card Discussipn - Vampire Hexmage

[madmanmike25]

No one's going to say it?  Then I guess I will. 

Why would you ever run this 2-card combo over Oath of Druids???  I'd rather cast Oath than Vampire Hexmage and Orchard provides mana whereas Dark Depths does nothing.  Sometimes Oath is a 1-card combo if they play a creature.

The only arguement for this over Oath is that it takes one swing to win.  It is however extremely vulnerable.  Oath runs 2-3 creatures and can still win after a bounce or STP.

Just sayin' the 2 decks are comparable and Oath just seems much better for 1G.  I'm not trying to stifle innovation though.  Elvish Archers is not really a good Vintage card imo, and thats what Vamp becomes w/o Dark Depths.

Good luck,
Mike

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah, and all of these cards see a lot of play....

There's a solution to everything. Naming 5 cards that destroys this combo doesn't mean that it won't work. I could name the first 50 cards that destroys artifacts, does that mean that Vault + Key doesn't work?

Repeal sees a lot of play, especially in Europe.  You can count any bounce along with it like ET and CoV.

No one's going to say it?  Then I guess I will. 

Why would you ever run this 2-card combo over Oath of Druids???  I'd rather cast Oath than Vampire Hexmage and Orchard provides mana whereas Dark Depths does nothing.  Sometimes Oath is a 1-card combo if they play a creature.

The only arguement for this over Oath is that it takes one swing to win. 

It fits in a suicide black shell.  I'd play it in that kind of deck over Oath.

[policehq]

re: madmanmike in the vacuum you've created, I don't think you're being very honest with yourself saying Oath would be better than Hexmage excluding other factors.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Repeal sees a lot of play, in europe. I'm sure most people on this forum arn't. Mike is probably right, and this deck is probably not tier 1,but I'm willing to kick some idea's around for the sake of a 20/20. I've found the ability to win without your combo a slight one up this deck has on oath. Its reminisant of when you could beat down with factory in the old icbm shell, except this has a bunch of 2/1's with loam waste.  What really kicks this thing in the nuts is dark blast.

[Darkenslight]

Why not play Grim Discovery, which gets back both pieces for  ?  That way, it'll be slightly more difficult to disrupt the combo.

Added to that, it can get back just one piece if the pother is on the table.

[madmanmike25]

re: madmanmike in the vacuum you've created, I don't think you're being very honest with yourself saying Oath would be better than Hexmage excluding other factors.

All I'm saying is what would you rather be casting? Oath for 1G or Hexmage for BB.  Which do you think can come down turn 1 with more frequency?  I am looking at both decks(and concepts) essentially as 2-card combos.  I'm not sure what factors you refer to that would make Hexmage more advantageous.  Why and when would it be better?  I don't think im incorrect in comparing these decks/concepts.

If Masknought saw play, this will too I know that.  And thats cool with me, but I predict it wont be as awesome as people think.  I can see it potentially boosting suiblack's clock.  I just really hate the thought of wasting a land drop on Dark Depths, and dont like Elvish Archers in Vintage.  But I sincerely wish the people working on it good luck.

[nataz]

OH NOES, DRAKE EATS MY COOKIES

oh wait, gilded drake is terrible.

Wow, madmanmike, way to make some terrible comparisons. Did you even read the thread? On the first page a couple of people, including me, compared this to Oath. Really, you are calling hexmage an elvish archer?

Lets ignore the fact that hexmage can kill a Tez, reset smokie/tangle wire, and exile bridge from below. Tell me again what oath does on its own? Go ahead - fell free.

Or I could just insert random trash like oath = elvish archer (gee wiz, even the colors match), but I'd rather think before I type.   

negitives:
no trample
creates a token
cost 2 colored mana
Dark Depths does not produce mana by itself
Hexmage will not auto win against fish


positives:
A restriced Brainstorm doesnt make you run 3-4 creatures on top of your 2 card combo
You can run BoB/Remora i.e., the best draw engines in the format
Takes up much less space
deals 20 the turn after you "combo"
a second hexmage > a second oath
In a better color
Creates a creature that turn

But hey, its nowhere near as good as expedition trap /sarcasm.

[Joblin Velder]

i lol'd

Posts like these add nothing to TMD. Verbal Warning for spam.
-Godder

[madmanmike25]

What else to say other than bad joke is bad.  At least one person had a laugh...I'm sure the moderators love 5 letter posts btw, Joblin Velder.

So you made the comparison to Oath?  Good for you.  That still doesnt change the fact that I disagree and think Oath is more powerful.  Yeah, I read your post.

Seems better then aggro oath.

OMG you are expressing your opinion!! WOW.  Shall I be rude to you in turn now because your opinion differs mine?

Its in a better color

True, but its also BB.  1G is easier to cast and I shouldnt have to explain why.

you dont have to wait a turn

Yeah you do.  It takes a land drop.  Its not easy to get BB turn 1.

and its less slots (4 vamp, 1-4 monster land v. 4 oath, 4 orchard, 2-3 doods).

Last I checked Orchard provides mana.  I dont think that a land that provides mana of any color is taking up a slot.  Dark Depths does NOTHING without Hexmage, Orchard lets you cast spells.

Crop rotation is pretty sweet with this as well.  

Yeah, and its been used in Oath previously as well.

Ok, so you are gonna kill Tezz?  If Tezz was in play before your Vamp came out they already got 1 of their missing combo pieces out of it, otherwise they arent gonna cast Tezz with this guy out.

Glad you brought up Smokestack.  So basically you just sacrificed your permanent sooner, that works for me.  I've lost count of how many games I've won with only having to add 1 counter to Smokestack.   Thats not worth mentioning, its not like Smokestack gets amped to 4 counters on a regular basis and OMG Hexmage just got me back in the game!!  Removing counters off Tanglewire is better of course, but you still lose a permanent....and what works to the Stax players advantage in the long run?  

Tell me again what oath does on its own? Go ahead - fell free.

For starters I will repeat that it comes down sooner.  Did you forget that it also prevents your opponent from casting creatures in fear of Triggering Oath?  Go ahead and play a creature w Oath out and find out what happens.

Or I could just insert random trash like oath = elvish archer (gee wiz, even the colors match),

Actually you already did your trashtalking

but I'd rather think before I type.

Yes, then please prove you can do so next time and we can have an adult discussion without all the unnecessary bs.  It was cute though.

I stand by the points I made and the manner/tone in which I made them, but I think I'm done here.

EDIT:  Could you please tell me what Expedition Trap is, Nataz??  New Tech im sure...

[Joblin Velder]

i lol'd again.

Verbal Warning for spam.
-Godder

[nataz]

Just an FYI. What I mean when I say "you dont have to wait a turn" is you get the creature right away. With Oath, they have a turn to respond by removing the oath, or the condition to activate oath. With Hexmage the turn you assemble the peices is the turn you get your monster. Its like a more conditional tinker.

Do you really not get it? Your logic was so bad. I'm in no way convinced that this is the best thing since sliced bread, but really - that was your response on
DD viability?



BTW, my bad. I was talking about your stated love of expidition M-A-P, a card sure to change the face of stax decks everywhere. 

[BruiZar]

I advise you all to pick up a set of dark depths and a marit lage token asap though, whether or not the combo is any good the price is skyrocketing. I saw a foil playset DarkDepths go for $100. If you haven't bought them by now you're probably too late to get em cheap anyway

[JudasKilled]

All this crazy oath talk and the damn lol's is making my penis soft! back to the danm dark depths and the crappy 2/1 talk!

[Darkenslight]

Hexmage has more synergy than just the obvious DD; it also reduces Tezz to ash.  This is not unimportant in the current meta.  IT also removes age counters from Grunt and Remora.  This is also not unimportant.

[Godder]

While it's fine to disagree, there's no need to be inflammatory about it. Either this thread gets civil, or it gets locked.

[Harlequin]

I think the best comparison so far was to Sifle-naught:

Dark Depths v Dreadnaught
-- Both fairly worlthless alone
-- Both suseptible to "small cc hate" (Repeal, EE, Deeds?)
-- Both can be tutored up with narrow, but situationally very useful tutors (Trinketmage v Crop Rotate).
- Dreadnaught is vunerable to artifact hate
- Dark Depths is vunerable to wasteland

Dark Depths kills an entire turn faster, however Stifle is more universally useful than Hexmage.

What people need to realize is that Dark Depths doesn't play like a Land, its an uncounterable artifact, that doesn't count as an artfiact (and can be wastelanded i guess).  To me comparing it to Orchard is probably less valid than to Ornithopter.

[Phele]

Dark Depths v Dreadnaught
...
-- Both suseptible to "small cc hate" (Repeal, EE, Deeds?)
...

Just to note: Marit Lage is INDESTRUCTIBLE, so no Explosives, Deeds, Wrath whatever do him any harm. Hexmage for sure is vulnerable to many kinds of removal, where Explosives and co fall under.

[xouman]

Why are you not playing regrowth? It's much more versatile then Grim Discovery

Grim Discovery is not in the list as well, I just mentioned it as a candidate.

Yes, Regrowth is more versatile. But Grim Discovery offers card advantage and sets up the combo again with one card. But I guess both are not worth including.

@ Xou: I think Combo is one of your best matchups: Between Duress, Stifle, Spell Pierce, FoW, Null Rod, Strip-Effects it is pretty hard for them to win. I think the most diificult matchups will be proper build Aggro-Control-Fish-builds and UBR Tez with a good mix of Fire/Ice, Needles and Stuff.

But combo is a good matchup because of all those cards around core Hexmage and MaritLage are not so important against combo, you have to rely on other cards

[nataz]

I hadn't thought of the interaction with remora. Interesting.

@ Jeff,

The only problem with thiking about DD as a 0cc artifact is that It takes a land drop. So its like a 0cc artifact that has the conditional requirement of being played before your first land of the turn.

Thats why I don't like the DD combo in an adnaus shell. To often I need that second/third land to go off, which cuts me off from playing DD when I draw into it. Frowns. Right now I'm looking into chrome mox, dark rit, riftstone portal, mox diamond (maybe), and urborg to help offset this general problem. 

[Harlequin]

Right now I'm looking into chrome mox, dark rit, riftstone portal, mox diamond (maybe), and urborg to help offset this general problem.  

Its funny that actually exactly why I thought it could work well in Ad Nas.  Is because you have many ways to get to BB on turn 2 without a land drop...

I think the Ideal "normal Hand" would be:  Land, Duress/Sieze, DDepth, Hexmage, *Mana*, X, Y
Where Mana could be: Jet, Lotus, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox (where X is a black card).  Or even Off color + Cabal Rit could work too.  Also If you Land was Tomb of Yawgmoth, it works as well.

ANT already runs full Rits and usually 6-8 Cabal Rits + Chrome Moxen.  So I thought you wouldnt have to add anything mana wise.  I think throwing in 1-2 token Tomb of Yawgs wouldn't hurt you much.

[BruiZar]

I can totally see a sort of revamped Sullivan Solution with Dimir Cutpurse, Vampire Hexmage, Mystic Remora, Confidant and Dark Depths. This way you have FoWs and duress to protect the big guy and plenty of draw.

[arctic79]

I thought of sullivan Solution as well, but it would require a complete retool to be the metagame predator it once was.

Seriously, trying to compare this to Oath is a waste of time, they are different decks altogether.

Mis-D might be a very good protector to the combo if you run enough blue, but really I think with the BB requirement of Hexmage a strong black suite is going to help this deck further.  I'm thinking of this deck along the lines of B/G Rock, with a splash of U or W for some instant protection.

[Guli]

Right now I'm looking into chrome mox, dark rit, riftstone portal, mox diamond (maybe), and urborg to help offset this general problem.  

Its funny that actually exactly why I thought it could work well in Ad Nas.  Is because you have many ways to get to BB on turn 2 without a land drop...

I think the Ideal "normal Hand" would be:  Land, Duress/Sieze, DDepth, Hexmage, *Mana*, X, Y
Where Mana could be: Jet, Lotus, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox (where X is a black card).  Or even Off color + Cabal Rit could work too.  Also If you Land was Tomb of Yawgmoth, it works as well.

ANT already runs full Rits and usually 6-8 Cabal Rits + Chrome Moxen.  So I thought you wouldnt have to add anything mana wise.  I think throwing in 1-2 token Tomb of Yawgs wouldn't hurt you much.

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Swamp
    3 Bayou
    2 Scrubland
    2  Dark Depths
    3  Riftstone Portal
    1 Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Children of Korlis
    4 Vampire Hexmage

// Spells
    4 Sylvan Library
    3 Oath of Ghouls
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Duress
    3 Life from the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    3 Crop Rotation
    1 Black Lotus

I am using my old engine with sylvan/children/Oath/Dark confidant. I think this deck list has a nice touch. It can be improved upon, and i challenge everybody to do it. Good luck!

[Darkenslight]

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Swamp
    3 Bayou
    2 Scrubland
    2  Dark Depths
    3  Riftstone Portal
    1 Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Children of Korlis
    4 Vampire Hexmage

// Spells
    4 Sylvan Library
    3 Oath of Ghouls
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Duress
    3 Life from the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    3 Crop Rotation
    1 Black Lotus

I am using my old engine with sylvan/children/Oath/Dark confidant. I think this deck list has a nice touch. It can be improved upon, and i challenge everybody to do it. Good luck!

Drop the green, for a start, and use Grim Discovery instead.   For the same mana, you get back both pieces of the combo from the graveyard.  If you do that, then run more tutors to grab the land.  Also, possibly even run Devoted Caretaker to protect from most bounce.  The only issue I can see is finding W turn one and BBW turn two to protect in the god draw.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

the green is fine, loam, regrowth, and crop rotation are all fine. I've tested grim discovery and its bad unless you playing some agressive self milling strategy, in which case you should just be playing ichorid. I'd sugest throwing in 1 bazaar, you've got a lot of crop rotation and loam. Drawing 2 cards a turn instead of 1 seems good. Devoted care taker seems completely awefull, at any rate worse than mother of runes which still isn't playable. After testing this thing in a few blue shells, I can tell you its not the way to go, the combo is just not as good as toa in any situation. I'd give bgw a shot for bob, vexing shusher, and tariff.

[Guli]

the green is fine, loam, regrowth, and crop rotation are all fine. I've tested grim discovery and its bad unless you playing some agressive self milling strategy, in which case you should just be playing ichorid. I'd sugest throwing in 1 bazaar, you've got a lot of crop rotation and loam. Drawing 2 cards a turn instead of 1 seems good. Devoted care taker seems completely awefull, at any rate worse than mother of runes which still isn't playable. After testing this thing in a few blue shells, I can tell you its not the way to go, the combo is just not as good as toa in any situation. I'd give bgw a shot for bob, vexing shusher, and tariff.

actually there is bazaar in the list i posted

And the while idea is to get a lot cards at the cost of life by using confidant and sylvan library. Plus you have the bazaar/loam engine if all else fails.

The Oath is in there to regrowth your creatures. Life is there to regrowth your lands. Easy to comprehend but it has a lot functions. You can keep making 20/20 flyers, you can keep using confidants, libraries if you have a korlis around. When you have multiples (which happens if you draw insane amounts of cards) you can start gaining a lot life as well. I used this engine in the past. It is very strong in the mid late game.

The new thing is the hex/DD combo. Black Oath decks need creatures that sac. Hex fits. Black Oath decks like dredge, life from the loam helps while covering for the land part of the deck, bazaar, strip, DD. Crop rotation can get draw, mana denial or a big 20/20 flyer. Things seem to fit well together and there is lots of obvious synergy.

I doubt it would be enough though. It is just a starting point.

[JudasKilled]

I ran the combo in a UB shell had good results
20:
4 polluted
4 underground
3 flooded
island x1
swamp x4
mox x2
watery grave x2

mana accel: 6
black lotus
lotus petal
dark ritual x4

Broken shit: 3
recall
walk
b storm

tutors: 5
imp seal
vamp tutor
demonic tutor
mystical tutor
demonic consult

Creatures: 8
vamp hexmage x4
dark confidant x4

Win conditions: 5
dark depths 2
Sadistic sacrement x3

Counters: 10
Force of Will x4
Spell pierce x4
misdirecetion x2

Disruption: 4
Duress x3

[Phele]

14 blue spells is not enough ro reliably support FoW.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I had the same issue with a similar list, I ended up needing to cut bob for a blue engine to make it work, and even then, I felt it was a bit akward.
judas, would you mind telling us what you liked, disliked, what you tested against. I'd be interested in how it went down, thx

[JudasKilled]

I tested against fish and really if I resolved mage and they didnt run stifle GG.

Against tezz its pretty much who blows out who, they have much better blow out potential obviously but you can just go the aggro route if you have to and sacrement taking tinker target, vault or key, and tezzeret ='s scoop.

Stax can be rough, they can still lock you out as easily.

Notenough blue cards to run FoW was a problem sometimes,  honestly I would just try and save FoW blue card for when I nreally neeeded it, this list deffinetly needs adjustment.

no plays against oath, I dont consider dredge a concern because I run 4 leylines in every board even if i dont run black so they just scoop g2 if u mull agggresively and run blue(well almost)

no oath tests