TheManaDrain.com
September 16, 2025, 09:54:01 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Does this deck need FoW?  (Read 1395 times)
AirTony7
Basic User
**
Posts: 1


View Profile
« on: September 22, 2009, 09:16:14 pm »

Down at my college we have a weekly vintage tournament (no proxies). Normally I ran Ichorid, but that has been hated out of existance for now. I decided to try and build a storm deck. This is the decklist I have so far:

Deck (60)
   
Creatures (1)
  1 Inkwell Leviathan

Spells (35)
  1 Mystical Tutor
  1 Vampiric Tutor
  1 Merchant Scroll
  3 Ad Nauseam
  1 Gifts Ungiven
  1 Brainstorm
  4 Dark Ritual
  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Repeal
  1 Necropotence
  3 Cabal Therapy
  4 Duress
  1 Demonic Consultation
  1 Ponder
  1 Mind's Desire
  2 Tendrils of Agony
  1 Chain of Vapor
  4 Cabal Ritual
  1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
  1 Tinker
  1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifacts (9)
  1 Mana Vault 
  2 Sensei's Divining Top
  1 Engineered Explosives
  1 Mana Crypt
  1 Pithing Needle
  1 Chrome Mox
  1 Sol Ring
  1 Lotus Petal
 
Lands (15)
  2 Flooded Strand
  3 Polluted Delta
  1 Watery Grave
  4 Island
  4 Swamp
  1 Tolarian Academy


My main question is should I be running Force of Will, and if so what should I cut? The metagame is mostly aggro decks and some control decks (mostly counterspell based) and one Earthcraft deck. Any other tweaks and suggestions are also welcomed.

Logged
clayparson
Basic User
**
Posts: 21


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 11:17:41 pm »

If you are asking, the answer is likely yes.

If you're going the ad nauseam route, i've seen pact of negation in place of FOW to some success.  But your list seems somewhere between the more aggressive ANT and building-towards-critical-mass TPS strategies.  I would advise re-thinking the list and decide exactly what you want to do.

If you go for ANT, I would cut some of the higher costing cards (leviathan (meaning probably cutting tinker as well), bargain) and maybe some of the silver-bullet control cards, then add another Ad Nauseam and some Pacts. 
For TPS, i would cut cabal therapy.  I think force of will is strictly better in that slot.
Logged
Gandalf_The_White_1
Basic User
**
Posts: 606



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 01:16:58 am »

I would suggest the following changes:

-1 Scroll
-1 Gifts
-1 Repeal
-3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Desire
-1 Inkwell
-2 Top
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Needle
-1 Explosives
-2 Island
-1 Swamp
-1 Academy

+1 Polluted Delta
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Watery Grave
+1 Tendrils
+3 Chrome Mox (Could also add 1 or 2 Mox Diamond Instead)
+1 Memory Jar
+4 Dark Confidant
+4 Thoughtseize

Changes Explained:

I think it is best to focus on the combo route with Ad Nauseam.  Fows are not good with Ad Nauseam as they up the CMC too much.

Scroll, Gifts, Repeal, Inkwell, Top, Needle, and Explosives are all too slow/controlish for this style of deck.  Desire is not very good because you do not have the requisite moxen+lotus to support it.  It is hard to set up and cast, and also really sucks to flip off Ad Nauseam.  Academy is also not very good without full power.  Even when it works, it usually only produces UU, and a lot of the times it screws you because it can't make mana, can only make blue mana, or gets wasted.  It's simply not worth running over another fetchland.

You don't want to have too many basics because you risk drawing the wrong colour and getting colour screwed and/or having to mull.  As such, more fetches are better since they can get basics but also Watery Graves, thus giving you access to both colours.

Thoughtseize is really good; even despite the life loss it is much better than Cabal Therapy, as it gives you an actual choice of cards instead of just guessing or having to resolve a duress first.

More Chrome Mox/Mox Diamonds are necessary to ensure that you can consistently cast stuff after tapping out for an Ad Nauseam, even after dropping a land for the turn.  They thus make the deck faster--the difference between a turn 2 kill and a turn 3 kill is huge, for example, especially when you're on the play and your opponent has Mana Drain/Counterspell.  The card loss is negligible if you use them either after an Ad Nauseam or to resolve one.

Dark Confidants are good because they allow you to win the long game even if you don't resolve a bomb in the fist couple of turns.  By attacking they also reduce your required storm count to kill your opponent.  They are thus good against both control and aggro, as well as stacks.

Tinker+Jar is really good because it usually allows you to go off that turn, and even if you don't you don't risk giving your opponent a new hand as you do with something like Twister.

The third Tendrils is so that you can find it consistently when going off with Ad Nauseam, once more speeding up the deck.  It also make you more resistant to effects like Jester's Cap and the new card Sadistic Sacrement (because you draw it more frequently).  The mini-Tendrils plan is also quite good with Confident and Necropotence.

Other possible changes not included above are adding a maindeck Hurkyl's Recall if you're worried about Stax decks, and adding the 4th Ad Nauseam.

Anyway, this is a lot of changes to the deck but try testing it and I think you will find it runs better.  If you are planning on playing it or at least something similar for a while, I would also suggest investing in at least 2 Underground Seas, as they are much better than Watery Grave, especially in a deck with Ad Nauseam.  They are also used in many other archetypes even if you switch over to Fish or Control.

Also, what does your current sideboard look like?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 01:20:33 am by Gandalf_The_White_1 » Logged

Quote from: The Atog Lord link
We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
sieger
Basic User
**
Posts: 3


Team Gush


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 02:27:41 pm »

i think no. bec, you dont need it.
Just think, on your turn you are saying, come on boy, we are going to win this game, then you draw FoW.. so?
Or you cast Ad Nauseam, then draw second Ad Nauseam, and again you face with fow.. nope..

And i can suggest you some improvements
for example Yawgmoth's Bargain. Do you really need that? or gifts, academy.. Actullay gandalf has a lot of points. but i think  Needle and Explosives are really necessery, if you cant start storm early you will really need these.

Maybe you can use these changes, just a suggestion

-1 Inkwell Leviathan(never tried, i am not sure, but i wont want to draw it)
-1 Mind's Desire
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Necropotence(ive never tried but i dont like this card:)
-1 gifts(not good enough for this deck)
-1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
-1 Necropotence

+3 Chrome Mox
+1 Echoing Truth
+2 Thoughtseize

+1 Merchant Scroll
+1 Wheel of Fortune (not sure about these two.. but can be nice:D who knows)


and land base can be like

1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

like galdalf said, you need more fetch lands. and if u dont have you can use 2Watery Graves instead of underground seas
Logged

Unrestrict: Ponder, Thirst, Gush, Brainstorm(i like its name)
Ban: Time Vault
MirariKnight
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 428

Lotus, YawgWill, Lotus, Go

xHollyw0odx
View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 02:30:59 pm »

I definitely agree with most of the changes above, and I second the Pact of Negation idea. Serves the same purpose as FoW but doesn't kill you when you Ad Naus, plus you probably don't have enough blue to support Force anyway. Pact should be perfect for protecting the combo, or even adding to storm in the worst case (cast something then counter it, or even double counter something).
Logged
sieger
Basic User
**
Posts: 3


Team Gush


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 02:42:15 pm »

yeah, MirariKnight has really big point, if you want to use FoW, then use Pact of Negation. However from my experiences with belcher combo deck. I dont use any protection cards exept  Needle, Explosives and Duress, Thoughtsieze. About 2 moths ago when i am playin against goblins, i am drawing cards with Manamorphose and i drew 2 Guttural Response's. So i hate them:) And you said about your meta is mostly aggro, so you wont need any counterspell i think.
Logged

Unrestrict: Ponder, Thirst, Gush, Brainstorm(i like its name)
Ban: Time Vault
honestabe
Basic User
**
Posts: 1113


How many more Unicorns must die???


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 10:14:00 pm »

I havent even looked at the list, and the answer is yes

Just kidding, i did look, and the answer is still yes.

I'd prob cut EE, scroll, needle and 1 top
Logged

Quote
As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
  -Chris Pikula
Gandalf_The_White_1
Basic User
**
Posts: 606



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2009, 01:31:59 am »

-1 Necropotence

Don't cut Necro; the card draw is insanely broken, especially when running multiple Tendrils, since even if you can't win outright you can always Tendrils to refuel for next turn.  Necro gives you the most cards for the least converted mana cost.

The artifact utility cards, such as Neddle and Explosives, are not good in a combo deck.  Your goal should not be to destroy or disable problem permanents, but to actually win.  As such, bounce spells are the best way of dealing with board-based hate in combo, since they are the most efficient.  So, if you are worried about stuff like that, add 1-2 more maindeck Chain of Vapor, since it deals with everything and can actually build storm and mana when going off.

Adding wheel as suggested is possible, but I would rather run Tinker/Jar ahead of Wheel since it is less risky, and I wouldn't bother splashing for Wheel unless already playing Twister.  Playing all the draw 7s is certainly a valid option, which results in a different deck than the list I suggested--since you have more early bombs, you can cut the Confidants and just focus on early game instead of possible long term incremental advantage.  The problem with this approach is that draw 7s are not very strong without full power.  In an unpowered list, I would definitely stick with the Confidant/Nauseam plan.

Regarding Pact of Negation: The problem with Pact is that it is hit or miss.  I tested and played with Pacts for a while, and they are either amazing in allowing protected turn 1/2 wins, or they simply sit in your hand while you lose.  Eventually I cut them for Thoughtseizes and never looked back.  Thoughtseize can not only clear the way for all your bombs, but also actually disrupt your opponent, which is often critical in winning against Control, other Combo decks, and even Aggro like Fish or BGW.

Look at it this way; Pact only really useful when you have an Ad Naseam or Will/Bargain in hand and enough mana to cast it (at least 5)--and even under these circumstances it is only good against decks with Force of Will.  Thoughtseize is good whenever your opponent has a hand and you have 1 black mana.  Not to mention the fact that you risk losing to Pact if your opponent has double Fow or something, whereas with Thoughtseize you can still have a chance to win depending on how it plays out.
Logged

Quote from: The Atog Lord link
We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.298 seconds with 21 queries.