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Author Topic: Vintage Adept Q & A #5: Best of the Best  (Read 7211 times)
Demonic Attorney
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« on: September 25, 2009, 01:35:12 pm »

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Right now, in the current Vintage meta, is Tinker a more powerful spell than Yawgmoth's Will?  I'm not talking in an abstract, theoretical way.  I'm talking about, right now-today, given the current tournament data that has been compiled both here and at Morphling, is Tinker having a more dynamic impact on the meta than Yawgmoth's Will?  Why or why not?

This is a deceptively difficult question.  Recent changes have, in my opinion, made both cards less powerful. 

Tinker

Tinker is weaker than it used to be for two reasons.  First, the availability of Vault/Key means there's a very real chance that your opponent will win the game before your Tinker -> Monster gets there.  Also, after resolving a Tinker, don't forget that you're technically down a card; that might not mean much, but it gives your opponent at least a little more of a theoretical head start to assemble infinite turns before it's too late.  Vault/Key is cheaper, quicker, and more powerful than any other combo-finish win condition I can remember.  When my opponents had to rely on Gifts Ungiven, Mindslaver, or Psychatog to win during earlier Vintage epochs, I was much less worried about my opponent combo'ing off and killing me in the 2-3 turns before my huge creature won me the game. 

Second, the metagame has shifted such that many players are running more "answer" cards than they have for a while.  Tezzeret lists, at least in the Northeast, run multiple bounce spells, Fish in the Midwest packs answers to Tinker creatures, and so on.  We've moved away from the days where a blue control list might run one token Echoing Truth for insurance purposes.  So there's more of a risk of your creature getting removed, which is often catastrophic.  As a side note, one of the most powerful cards to run alongside Tinker, Mindslaver, has all but disappeared from the format, making Tinker's potential applications significantly narrower.

Honestly, I haven't even seen more than a couple of isolated examples of players even bothering to try to "get there" with an early Tinker anymore, where as a few years ago it was a very common play.  At the last tournament I played in, my opponent Tinkered out a Sundering Titan on turn 3 and destroyed my lands; I won through Vault/Key on the next turn anyway.

Will

Yawgmoth's Will's power waxes and wanes along with the power of the other spells in your deck.  During the Gush era, a resolved Will after turn 3 was almost-guaranteed win.  Even in the days of Slaver and Gifts, there were plenty of powerful, cheap cantrips and other draw spells that you could use to quickly stack your graveyard, assemble defenses to ensure Will resolved, and then generate an enormous advantage by recurring all your spells at once. 

Today, the cheap cantrips are all gone.  Because spells are for the most part slower and most costly, Will becomes slower and weaker. 

Now, I'll add a caveat that Will in Ritual-based combo is in a very different situation.  There, it's almost as powerful as ever, and if a combo player gets Will through against you, that situation is about as dire as it's ever been.  That's because combo still has access to cheap quality spells and fast mana in a way that blue-based control doesn't anymore.

Which is better

While both cards have gotten weaker, I'd say Tinker has been reduced to a shadow of its former self while Will is still a potent card.  Generally speaking, in the olden days Tinker was your broken endgame play in the early game, and Will was your broken endgame play in the late game.  Getting either spell through in the appropriate time frame virtually ensured victory. 

Today, I basically only see Tinker used as a 3-mana tutor for one of the Vault/Key pieces, unless it's being used against Fish.  Being used as a stand-in for half the Vault/Key combo is nice, but it doesn't influence the Vintage metagame and it doesn't make Tinker a card that players fear they way they used to.  Even against Fish, Tinker does less than it used to.  Against Gay/r, Tinkering a DSC was game over.  Now, Fish decks have access to more resources, run more powerful cards, and come prepared for Tinker.  Most significantly, their draw engines are often comparable to blue control, which has never before been true in the history of the format.  This means they're able to find and use removal for Tinker -> Creature as quickly as a blue control player can dig for protection.

On the other hand, Will is still good for doubling the effects generated by every card you've played in the game so far.  That effect is as devastating as ever.  While you won't be able to stock your graveyard with multiples of Thirst, Brainstorm, Gush, and Merchant Scroll the way you used to, the hodgepodge of draw spells and Duresses left in the format is enough to make Will powerful enough to solidify an advantage for one player or swing the game in another's favor.

In short, Will is still a functional win condition, but Tinker's power has slipped to the point where, on its own, I don't think it's as strong. 
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 02:24:50 am »

@DA,
I would if you hadn't answered the question and expressed it in a way that's almost similar to what I wanted to say. Wink That being said, I can only say I agree with your assessment, Tinker at this time is barely at the power level high enough to actually make an impact. It's only really useful in getting the TV/Key combo assembled, sure getting Tinker - Bot can still seal the deal, but unlike the days of old when Tinker - Bot against a Drain deck could also seal it, it's now next to impossible because of the rather fast goldfish current Drain decks still posses.
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 04:43:43 am »

Potency of Vintage Magic cards exists on a continuum and moreover must be set in context. Therefore, for the most powerful cards we use, it is quite difficult in a vacuum to say that one or another card is per se more powerful than another. As an extreme example, there are times when a Lava Dart will win you a game which Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker would not. However, for most cards, we may assume that they are nowhere near Yawgmoth's Will in terms of potency.

But what about Bazaar of Baghdad? Sure, there are plenty of decks that run Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker to good effect. But there aren't any decks that run Serum Powder just to find their Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will. There aren't decks that basically can't keep a hand without Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will. But Bazaar is so vital to a specific deck, Dredge, that in many builds it is better to mulligan any two card hand devoid of Bazaar in the hope of drawing into that land. More than Mana Drain fuels Tezzeret decks, Bazaar fuels Ichorid. More than Dark Ritual enables Storm Combo to exist, Bazaar makes Dredge the threat it is.

So, is Bazaar of Baghdad the most powerful card in Vintage? I don't think the question is solvable in a meaningful way, but there is at least a strong case to be made for Bazaar. And while I realize that the question did ask about spells, Bazaar is more spell than land in many regards.
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 04:46:37 pm »

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This is a deceptively difficult question.

I beg to differ.

Sure, 'relative power' arguments can always be made.  However, it's difficult to ignore that Tinker, compared to its historical relative significance with Yawgmoth's Will, has seen a large uptick recently.  I would go as far, and answer the poster's question, and say that Tinker is more powerful than Yawgmoth's right now.

I don't have a formal criteria for this judgement, although I'm happy to go into greater detail or work within someone else's framework.  Generally I feel this is true because:

1) Tinker is relevant to the optimal win condition right now, Time Vault + Voltaic Key.  Also, since Vault/Key can come out of no where on a counter-attack, the non-lethal YWill to get marginal advantage is diminished.

2) The 'meta' decks are still soundly beaten by the Tinker>Robot gambit.  Sure, they've evolved and it's not as air-tight as it used to be.  However, Sphinx has helped a great deal by solving the 'swarm' problem of creature based decks.

3) Yawgmoth's Will's support cards have continually been restricted.  Brainstorm/Gush(bond) were huge, but Gifts and Ponder hurt a lot too.  Thirst for Knowledge was the nail in the coffin once people realized that Dark Confidant has better EV relative to Skeletal Scrying, strategic planning and Intuition/AK.
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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 10:08:02 am »

The interesting thing here is that neither card actually does anything alone.  Tinker is only as powerful as the best artifact you can find at -any- cost.  Yawg Will is only as strong as the cards in your graveyard.  I would say (kinda riffing off what GI wrote) that there 3 main factors in play right now.

-- Timevault Key
-- Robot Powercreep
-- Speed of the Format, and lack of cantrips

1) Timevault Key,  In my opening thought I made a point to say that tinker is as strong "as best artifact you can find at any cost."  And sometimes the best artifact is the one that says "you take all the turns now." 

2) I normally wouldn't say that vintage is normally plagued by powercreep.  Mainly because In the past several years, the Dev team for new sets has done a commendable job of keeping the power level of all new cards relatively equal. 

The only place where Powercreep really tends to pop through is when it comes to creatures that are "Fair for thier cost."   Vintage has two tool that no other format has to cheat cost: Tinker and Oath of Druids.  In Alar we got two new robots to consider, Inkwell and Sphinx of Steelwind.  I would say that over half of the control players (at least here in NE) have decided that the strongest creature now is Sphinx.  But who knows what future sets will bring. 

3) Brainstorm, Ponder, Thirst.  If we use our restricted list as cannon these are the "Strongest cantrips" in the format.  These cards gave control the ability to spend the first few turns sculpting the perfect hand.  This led to more consistent later-game wins.  Today we see control running two types of cards.  Cards that win the game as soon as possible and cards that rebuild you.  Control cashed in their smoothing cantrips for tutors and confidants. 

Yawgmoth's will back in the days of slaver for example, where absolutely gamewinning.  By the time yawg hit, your graveyard was so full of cantrips it was almost impossible to NOT find the card you were looking for.  Today by comparison, it’s a glorified Regrowth, often used to simply recast your previously countered combo pieces and win.  So on one hand, Yawg still wins the game, but on the other hand - it only really serves as a way to win the war after a lost battle.

In summary Tinker is stronger than it was historically as a result of TV-Key and New Robots.  Where Yawg is at least only as good, if not worse, as a result of the new B/R philosophy.
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 07:27:36 pm »

The power of Tinker has been increasing.  First Tinker finds Vault or Key.  Second, Leviathan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind have made answering TInker that much more difficult.  In particular, Welder is no longer an answer.  That you sacrificed a card to Tinker is less relevant now than before.  Before you might have Brainstormed that Mox back or pitched it to Thirst.
That is less likely now with both cards restricted.  How else does losing a Mox effect your ability to defend?  Unless it was Sapphire it would not have helped you cast Drain and it would only help with Force if you were hardcasting it.

I agree that Yawg has been weakened because the cantrips were restricted.  Without Brainstorm, Ponder and Scroll Yawg has lost some of its mid game power.  It is still insane in the late game, but is definitely weaker than it once was.

I would say Tinker is the more powerful card right now just because the number of answers have dropped while the answered to Yawg keep increasing.

days of old when Tinker - Bot against a Drain deck could also seal it, it's now next to impossible because of the rather fast goldfish current Drain decks still posses.

So have Drain decks sped up?  Is Tez faster than Meandeck Gifts or Turbo Gush was?

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« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 07:42:46 pm by Godder » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 09:33:49 pm »

Even unrestricted Thirst Tez lists were a half turn to a full turn slower than Meandeck Gifts lists.    

In addition to Brainstorm, the restriction of Thirst has also really hurt Will, since you just *draw* fewer cards per game, which means it takes longer to build to a critical mass Will, let alone having fewer cards in the yard.
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 02:58:46 pm »

Which card have all of you lost to more recently in the tournaments you've been playing in?

I can tell you that I have lost a hell of a lot more games due to a top-decked Yawgmoth's Will than a top-decked Tinker, both in the past and recently. To me that speaks volumes about what card is more potent.
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 02:59:56 pm »

You don't lose to top decked Tinker on turn 6.  You lose to turn 1 or turn 2 Tinker.

Late game Yawg is way better.
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 06:36:40 pm »

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Which...have all of you lost to more recently in the tournaments you've been playing in...a top-deck?

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« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 06:50:50 pm by Grand Inquisitor » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 04:09:58 am »

Honestly, the only reason i play tinker these days is to beat fish and other aggro-aggro/control strategies.
It can also help assemble vault/key, but the main purpose is to beat up on fish.

Will is much weaker then it used to be, but it still just wins games. Especially for those who play some number of intuitions.
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 04:02:26 am »

Tinker, and I don't think it's that close.  As Steve pointed out, the lack of low-cc draw effects has made it harder and harder to fill your GY in the all-important early-mid stages of the game... It's not just Thirst, it's Brainstorm/Gush/Gifts.  Also, given that control matchups lasting 30-40 turns seem to be rare compared to 2004-2007, there is simply less time for Yawg Will to be the gamebreaker.

Tinker is *nearly* always relevant.  Outside of Ritual decks, Will is often not relevant.
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 04:31:53 pm »

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Tinker is *nearly* always relevant.  Outside of Ritual decks, Will is often not relevant.

What are you talking about???  You guys talk like you can't figure out how to win with Will now that you can't just lucksack Brainstorms into the win from out of your graveyard.  I often find myself winning with Will faster now than when I played Slaver.  The reason is pretty simple.  Instead of using Brainstorms now to find multiples in our decks, we use tutors to find a precise win now.  With that much precision in the early game, it's particularly easy to win with Will.  Instead of turn one Brainstorm, or whatever, you turn one topdeck tutor for Recall, turn two Duress and Recall.  By turn two, you already have a practically lethal graveyard. 
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