Sadistic Suicide (The most fun I've had in Vintage in ages)

[Scyther]

and how often do u have a minimum of 3 cards played and THEN played the ordeal?
IMO its not very comon with this deck. it avoids counters thtas true and its a bit easier to play but u need alot afford to have the same effect as a a sacrament.

[Ayei]

and how often do u have a minimum of 3 cards played and THEN played the ordeal?
IMO its not very comon with this deck. it avoids counters thtas true and its a bit easier to play but u need alot afford to have the same effect as a a sacrament.

Bitter ordeal has Gravestorm, not storm; 1 wasteland = 3 gravestorm and so on...

Edit: you can add: cabal therapy, black lotus, lotus petal, Gatekeeper of Malakir and fetch's

[smasher]

Unixtreme if you want to play bitter ordeal instead of sadistic sacrament then playing 8-10 fetchlands seems reasonable. How many actual swamps do you need in the deck.

I happen to like both cards for different decks of course. If you are playing sadistic sacrament as a sideboard weapon then it makes sense to belong in a tendrils deck.
Bitter Ordeal seems better in a deck packing wastelands similar to what you have posted. I played a black red ordeal list for a few weeks until everyone refused to playtest. Unless they where running a fish or aggro deck they had turns 1 and maybe 2 to win before I usually neutered the deck through their counters.

[Scyther]

and how often do u have a minimum of 3 cards played and THEN played the ordeal?
IMO its not very comon with this deck. it avoids counters thtas true and its a bit easier to play but u need alot afford to have the same effect as a a sacrament.

Bitter ordeal has Gravestorm, not storm; 1 wasteland = 3 gravestorm and so on...

Edit: you can add: cabal therapy, black lotus, lotus petal, Gatekeeper of Malakir and fetch's

you are right with the lands. fetches and wastes are pretty good with ordeal. although the other cards mentioned doesnt make a difference. a blotus gives one storm and also only one gravestorm.
and a wasteland gives "only" 2 gravestorm. (2 lands go to the yard..)

[overseer1234]

yeah as said.....
its ALTERNATE win condition.... its not that u want to find and resolve a lethal tendrils ASAP and at all costs. it just happens sometimes...

wheras u need the dures effects to actually STAY IN THE GAME against most decks.
i.e. there are essential for the decks success.

dont know if the letter is less important to u... oO'

By winning with tendrils you kind of dont need to stay in the game...

Annyway, enough with the flaming (on my behalf, I just can't help it), since we obviously disagree.

Atm I'm testing the build with the maindeck leyline and helm, and have to say I like it so far... ichorid becomes a better matchup (however you still keep the sideboard jailers), tezz doesn't like this much must counters (okay here you obviously miss null rod, but you can win about as fast as they can unless they go broken, but then again, so can you), and the sideboard can easily be tuned to fight off shop and fish, and use the open slot's to nuke tezz if you think it's needed.

[Scyther]

yeah as said.....
its ALTERNATE win condition.... its not that u want to find and resolve a lethal tendrils ASAP and at all costs. it just happens sometimes...

wheras u need the dures effects to actually STAY IN THE GAME against most decks.
i.e. there are essential for the decks success.

dont know if the letter is less important to u... oO'

By winning with tendrils you kind of dont need to stay in the game...

Annyway, enough with the flaming (on my behalf, I just can't help it), since we obviously disagree.

u didnt actuallly read what i wrote right?

I bet u fire off a lethal tendrils in round3 EVERY freakin game.... -.-
well, u dont said that? and its not true whatsoever?
ok... soooo.. u need the 8 duress then. seriosly.

[Ayei]

and how often do u have a minimum of 3 cards played and THEN played the ordeal?
IMO its not very comon with this deck. it avoids counters thtas true and its a bit easier to play but u need alot afford to have the same effect as a a sacrament.

Bitter ordeal has Gravestorm, not storm; 1 wasteland = 3 gravestorm and so on...

Edit: you can add: cabal therapy, black lotus, lotus petal, Gatekeeper of Malakir and fetch's

you are right with the lands. fetches and wastes are pretty good with ordeal. although the other cards mentioned doesnt make a difference. a blotus gives one storm and also only one gravestorm.
and a wasteland gives "only" 2 gravestorm. (2 lands go to the yard..)

Well, I said 3 gravestorm including the bitter itself.

Anyway, i preffer a 2 gravestorm bitter ordeal than sadistic sacrament being countered.

[unixtreme]

By winning with tendrils you kind of dont need to stay in the game...

Annyway, enough with the flaming (on my behalf, I just can't help it), since we obviously disagree.

Atm I'm testing the build with the maindeck leyline and helm, and have to say I like it so far... ichorid becomes a better matchup (however you still keep the sideboard jailers), tezz doesn't like this much must counters (okay here you obviously miss null rod, but you can win about as fast as they can unless they go broken, but then again, so can you), and the sideboard can easily be tuned to fight off shop and fish, and use the open slot's to nuke tezz if you think it's needed.

You could disagree, I just thought that 18 months testing this deck on Vintage could bring some light.

BTW, i mean that in a deck built to work with Bitter it's a million of times better than Sadistic, we even tested sadistic and when you drew it at topdeck was pretty much a dead card, just fow/drain and done in the other hand having Bitter at topdeck and even breaking your own land with waste (If opponent had no basics) and casting it was a 3 ish bitter, opponent could counter one copy but the other two that go through are usually enough.

You have to realize that I'm not saying it's generally better than Sadistic, I'm putting it under certains circumstances on a given deck, and if i could have a 2ish sadistic uncounterable i'd totally state that it is better than Sadistic, because this is a topdeck deck, your hand goes out in a few turns if you don't want to be raped by the Tezz guy.

Example:

Fetch lotus Bitter = GG
Fetch lotus Sadistic = counter

[ennui]

What do you people think of this?  I'm walking into an unknown low-power meta where I hear vague telling that there's a semi-drudge deck.  Will 4 Polluteds, an island, and a sapphire cover me for the ancestral?  Is 6 fetchlands with 6 swamps and a mox enough? I don't have a time walk or else I'd include it, same with underground seas.  I also wanna see what kind of non-basic land hate is being run before I dump money into the massively overpriced seas.  I cannot afford a lotus.  I need *general* suggestions for my other 7 sideboard slots.  Perhaps a pithing needle?  I went mostly with the original updated list as you can see, I just got back into magic after a few years.  I loved suicide, and I love seeing a possible top tier mono black or mild splash.  I cannot go the tarmogoyf route as again, I don't have the money to dump.  Is splashing *just* for ancestral worth it, with the dark confidants and nights wispers?  Should the whispers come out for something else?  I...I really dunno.

Creatures  (11)
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants (23)
4 Dark Ritual
3 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Rituals

Artifacts (6)
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

Lands  (20)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
6 Swamp
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard (8)
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
4 Leyline of the Void

[unixtreme]

What do you people think of this?  I'm walking into an unknown low-power meta where I hear vague telling that there's a semi-drudge deck.  Will 4 Polluteds, an island, and a sapphire cover me for the ancestral?  Is 6 fetchlands with 6 swamps and a mox enough? I don't have a time walk or else I'd include it, same with underground seas.  I also wanna see what kind of non-basic land hate is being run before I dump money into the massively overpriced seas.  I cannot afford a lotus.  I need *general* suggestions for my other 7 sideboard slots.  Perhaps a pithing needle?  I went mostly with the original updated list as you can see, I just got back into magic after a few years.  I loved suicide, and I love seeing a possible top tier mono black or mild splash.  I cannot go the tarmogoyf route as again, I don't have the money to dump.  Is splashing *just* for ancestral worth it, with the dark confidants and nights wispers?  Should the whispers come out for something else?  I...I really dunno.

Creatures  (11)
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants (23)
4 Dark Ritual
3 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Rituals

Artifacts (6)
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

Lands  (20)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
6 Swamp
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard (8)
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
4 Leyline of the Void

As Ancestral Recall as your only blue card I would suggest running 1x Underground instead of the Island, 3 waste + strip could make you take many mulligans due to the lack of black mana sources, island would be just another cripple to the mana base.

I would neither run Tomb of Yawgmoth because it has bad synergy with the mana denial strategy, allowing an opponent to cast black spells with a fetch or having black and blue mana with an island could be really helpful for them. Plus I don't really see it as an auto include on this deck.

[Mith]

I suppose I'm rather bored with the Remora Tez metagame here in the Northeast...which is why I'm looking to tinker around with a mono-black deck.

A smattering of reports have shown that Dark Depths can provide the speed necessary for this deck to be competitive (and top 8). My only problem with the version that you rarely see at a tourney is that I feel it can be faster and more aggressive. With that in mind, I've started reworking the list. Below is what I'm going to start with, and see what develops:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hexmage
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consult
1 Yawg's Will
1 Necropotence
2 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Null Rod
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawg
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
5 Fetches
6 Swamp

I've taken out the maindeck Leylines, as I'm just not seeing enough Dredge yet. If that changes (and I bet it will), they can always come back. The original decklist runs Diabolic Edict...and I understand both the argument for instants as well as the casting-cost issue...but I'm going to run Gatekeeper of Malakir instead. First of all, I have had no trouble having three mana to cast him. Secondly, he's another beatstick that I can use instead of having a dead card in my hand early-game.

This list is only 59 cards, and I'm still not sure what the last card should be. I'm tempted to run a Crucible, to have a way back to my dark depths and fetches as well as wasteland/strip recursion. That seems a little superfluous, but I'm all ears for suggestions. Also, the 4th Null Rod may be excessive, especially with a full set of tutors in the deck. The same could possibly be said for the second Sadistic Sacrament, but I like having two considering oath decks sometimes run up to four win conditions.

For the board, I currently have:
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Phyrexian Negator
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Gate to Phyrexia

The Gates are experimental, and I'm curious to see if they'll help the Workshop matchup. Leyline could easily be Planar Void (which is probably more versatile) as you can cast it just as easily first turn, and afterwards you won't need to waste a Ritual to get it out quickly. That would certainly negate my Crucible, but that card is not a definite addition.

Ok, that sums it up. I think that this deck's "win-now" condition via Dark Depths is fast enough and resilient enough to take on Tez and Oath, and Sadistic Sacrament is a force to be reckoned with. I'm not 100% on the Gatekeepers, but we'll see how they work out.

[madmanmike25]

Gate to Phyrexia was good when I tested it.  Of course I ran that in conjunction with Bitterblossom so I always had a creature to sack.  Btw Bitter is also great with Negator besides being a GREAT sb card vs Stax.

Gatekeepers are good too.  The 2/2 Edict comes in handy and since it's mono black getting BBB is rarely a problem.

Random thought:  If you want to assemble the combo asap why are you not running 4 Depths?  Truthfully with 4 Confidants you have a pretty good chance to just draw into them and don't always have to tutor for it. 

As for the 60th card you could consider Tendrils of Agony, Darkblast, Plunge into Darkness(my favorite name for a MTG card ever), Spoils of the Vault, or Desperate Research to help find the missing combo piece.

Good luck,
Mike

[Mith]

Part of my issue with running four Dark Depths is it often feels like too much. Dark Depths by itself is a useless card...but Hexmage at least beats for two (with first strike). I'd rather keep the number at two to maximize the useful cards, and be able to tutor for the Depths as needed. With four maindeck tutors, it hasn't been a problem.

That being said, a 5th tutor would be nice...but both of those options are suboptimal for finding a two-of in the deck (I most often tutor for Depths or Sacrament). I've never run Plunge into Darkness, and Darkblast isn't a bad choice. Tendrils I'd rather avoid, considering that I have little ability to storm for much.

I like Bitterblossom...but where to make room? Perhaps in the Negator spot?

[Killane]

Part of my issue with running four Dark Depths is it often feels like too much. Dark Depths by itself is a useless card...but Hexmage at least beats for two (with first strike). I'd rather keep the number at two to maximize the useful cards, and be able to tutor for the Depths as needed. With four maindeck tutors, it hasn't been a problem.

That being said, a 5th tutor would be nice...but both of those options are suboptimal for finding a two-of in the deck (I most often tutor for Depths or Sacrament). I've never run Plunge into Darkness, and Darkblast isn't a bad choice. Tendrils I'd rather avoid, considering that I have little ability to storm for much.

I like Bitterblossom...but where to make room? Perhaps in the Negator spot?

If you want another Tutor why not run Grim Tutor?

[Mith]

Maybe I'm overdoing the tutoring a bit. I'm tempted to cut the 4th Rod, take the extra spot, and fill them with something large and fast...maindeck Negators or Tombstalkers.

Maybe Tendrils will work...after a will, you could probably use it as a finisher.

With 8 Duress effects, I bet I could sneak in a Kaervek's Spite for the kill

[Killane]

Maybe I'm overdoing the tutoring a bit. I'm tempted to cut the 4th Rod, take the extra spot, and fill them with something large and fast...maindeck Negators or Tombstalkers.

Maybe Tendrils will work...after a will, you could probably use it as a finisher.

With 8 Duress effects, I bet I could sneak in a Kaervek's Spite for the kill

I've been testing a Dark Times build with Tendrils - I like it so far but not enough data yet.