BUG Fish VS GWU vs BUW Fish

[CowWithHat]

What deck are you talking about Brian?

I have never seen a fish build that wraps up the game "quickly enough that -2 or -3 life from a city of brass wouldn't be determinative."  Sometimes goyf gets there pretty fast but that is uncommon.  The idea of the deck is first disrupt, then play a guy (hopefully one that disrupts them), then disrupt some more, play another guy (if he disrupts as well you get two thumbs up) and try not to die with disruption before those two guys get there.  City asks for payment at every stage of that plan.

I don't like Force of Will.  Its an unpopular position.  I don't like the fact that you can't play it in a way that doesn't make the effect (counter a spell) not seem overcosted (five mana or two cards, they both are annoying to me).  The fact that it is the cheapest free counter (thwart and foil are needlessly harsh on their casters) makes it essential to fish.  Fish doesn't do anything busted to kill your opponent.  You have to not be dead early, then lay out creatures (who are by their very nature not that quick at killing people) without dying, then continue to not die all the way until your creatures kill the other guy.  Force of Will is important at every stage of this game because you can't afford to keep mana open for less costly counters every turn.  You have to disrupt all the time.

I have made black fish decks without Vamp before.  I would not imagine trying that in a deck that sports 5 colors.  Vamp makes up for everything that is bad about 5 color.  It solves inconsistency.  A five color control (I'd like to say reactive but I don't think that is serious enough for this forum) deck needs to hit the right answer in every game.  Vamp is the right answer every time you draw it.  Vamp can also answer what I think is the biggest problem with 5 color, a fragile mana base, by searching for the right mana card for the specific situation.

To speak a little more on that last point fish is a deck that gets its mana blown up all the time.  Fetches get stifled, wastelands get sacced, duals get wasted, and moxes get neutered by opposing chalices and rods from both sides.  If the deck is trying to rely on a consistent mana source to pump out its disruption it doesn't want City.  If it is the topdecked solution to one dead card in hand you are happy with it.  However, fish isn't usually one card that blows out the other guy (and if it is that card is Null Rod so city doesn't really help), it wants a bunch of cards that build incremental gain.  City steps on the whole strategy's toes.

I am making conjecture based comments here, though.  I am basing my ideas on fish decks that I understand (the three from the title) and I clearly do not understand this 4 or 5 color list.  Please show a list so we can see what it is you are talking about.

[vroman]

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if you can duress or counter oath, extirpate is more or less game.

this is certainly not true. I would be happy to have enemy spend 2 cards to exile my oaths, making it easier to just get vaultvolt.

This is exaggerated, you can't be happy to see these cards exiled which distinguish your deck from being just a worse Tez build. Yes, you can still bring together Vault-Key, but while trying to do so without proper draw engine and tokens nibbling away your life, your opponent is in the favorable position.

It is not an exageration. I win probably half my games by assembling vaultvolt indepedent of oath. the duress/counter+extirpate oath play has been used against me atleast 3 times so far I can remember off top of my head, and I won all those games.

There's nothing wrong with running City of Brass in this type of 4C or 5C Fish either.  I've been really liking the Cities.

interesting, will try it.

vroman, could we please see a list of this 4 color fish.

I do not have authoritative list, bc I havnt talked to the guy on our team who swears by 4c fish in about a week, but will post later tonight

[SadDubs]

sure 5c fish can dish out good disruption vs control and combo, but I'd imagine that it dies to any deck running wasteland.

[CowWithHat]

SadDubs, do you have a list for 5c fish from which to make these assertions?

I don't think any meaningful comments can be made on that deck without a list of at least 60 cards to look at.  I have in my head an idea for 5c fish but I have never seen anything like it perform in a top8 so I cannot say that it is established in any sense.  Were I to make my comments based on this list in my head I do not think that would be meaningful at all because it may differ widely from the idea in these posters' minds.

If there is new tech to be discussed and it is relevant to the discussion of which fish build is best I would like to see it.  These speculative comments on an idea for a deck are irrelevant and tangential to the discussion.

[MirariKnight]

What does red add to 5C fish that 4C fish doesn't have already? Magus/Blood Moon are far and away the best red fish-ish stuff, but they seem absolutely terrible with more than 2, MAYBE 3 colors.
Genuinely curious, this was not meant to be patronizing as I'm probably missing something obvious.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

What does red add to 5C fish that 4C fish doesn't have already?

IMO, Grim Lavamancer is a good creature in Fish, especially in the current meta with most Tezz decks running Confidant--and of course it kills Welder as well.  REB is also good against Tezz.  Goblin Vandal and Artifact Mutation are very good against Stax.  And in metas with a significant combo presence, Pyrostatic Pillar is an efficient hate option that dodges artifact bounce/destruction.

[vroman]

This is what Id run for UGBW fish

3 city brass
4 Ux fetch
4 waste
1 stripmine
1 island
1 tundra
1 trop island
1 under sea
1 undiscovered paradise
4 mox
1 lotus
4 dconf
4 qasali
4 meddling
4 tgoyf
4 spell pierce
4 spell snare
4 duress
1 recall
1 time walk
1 brainstorm
1 regrowth
1 volt key
1 time vault
1 dtutor
1 vtutor
1 mtutor
1 rebuild
side
3 gaddock teeg
3 oxidize
3 extirpate
3 ethersworn canonist
3 plowshares

[CowWithHat]

That is a fascinating deck list vroman, but I do not think that it qualifies as fish.  I would classify that as a modern update to EBA with a green splash.   Regardless of what I classify it as I don't think it functions with similar strategy to the three fish ideas that are currently most prominent (UWB, UWG, and BUG).  This deck is not based on mana disruption and some hassling critters.  It appears to be a deck built to hate on oath.  Perhaps it does that job well but it does not act like fish.  

There is no stifle, null rod or Force of Will which are cards in fish that define it as a deck.  I personally associate the name fish and the overall strategy with Stifle, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Force of Will, Null Rod (sometimes Chalice instead but always one of the two), and a creature based win condition.  I could imagine removing a single element from that list, or even multiple elements, but you have removed more then half of the cards that make fish what it is.  This comment is not meant to critique the power or the originality of the deck you have submitted.  However, I do not see it as being anywhere near what I consider fish to be.

I would also like to point out some things that I see to be large flaws in your deck.  

You run only one basic land and only 22 mana sources overall.  Most fish and Stax lists can make short work of that kind of mana base.  

You run 0 ways to deal with creatures outside of the combat phase.  Tarmogoyf and bob play havoc against you if they can make it past the 4 counters you play that can target them.  Welder resolves every time and is an issue for you on two fronts, in a long game he can work you over with multiple activations and he can prevent you from effectively running your short game by killing a vault/key piece.  

Tinker -> sphinx is a problem as you run only rebuild to deal with it.  

The largest problem that I see with this list is that when you play against tezzeret you are fighting them on their own terms, using cards that have less impact when they resolve.  Most fish decks get an advantage in the fight because they fight the manabase.  You sacrificed that role by removing null rod and stifle.  You choose to play a worse confidant game, run counters that do not give huge mana rewards, and you have less consistent access to vault/key.  In addition to running what I consider to be "strategy inferior" you use a less robust mana base to do it.  In this way you have sacrificed one of fish's famous claims to power, consistency.

I currently understand the vintage metagame to prominently feature Stax, Tezzeret, Oath, and Fish.  It is possible that this is only my area but it seems to line up pretty well with smmemen's most recent classification of the overall metagame.  This list seems to play a worse game then all three of the title fish lists against everything but oath in that metagame.

[vroman]

your criticisms are valid. I will teak it some. however, I question stifle as being intrinsic to fish. Ive probably seen more fish wo stifle than w.

[brianpk80]

What deck are you talking about Brian?

I have never seen a fish build that wraps up the game "quickly enough that -2 or -3 life from a city of brass wouldn't be determinative."  Sometimes goyf gets there pretty fast but that is uncommon.  The idea of the deck is first disrupt, then play a guy (hopefully one that disrupts them), then disrupt some more, play another guy (if he disrupts as well you get two thumbs up) and try not to die with disruption before those two guys get there.  City asks for payment at every stage of that plan..

My experience comes from the Enlightened Fish list I've been tinkering with for a few months and the 5C Fish list I was using almost a year ago.  Your points are not baseless, but what I think is being overlooked here is that as the game proceeds, the Fish player's mana base develops to a point where tapping the City is no longer necessary to resolve your 1 CC and 2 CC spells.  This is especially true of lists with Noble Hierarch.  If, in a green based list, your hand opens with Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Time Walk, and Ethersworn Canonist as businesss, City of Brass is exactly the solution to the early quandary of whether to fetch a Savannah, a Tropical, or a Bayou.  Developing without color-screw early on is well worth the 2 or so points of damage inflicted by City of Brass.  

What does red add to 5C fish that 4C fish doesn't have already?

Goblin Welder, Gorilla Shaman, and Ancient Grudge.  Also smooths out running Vexing Shusher, which stems from red mana as easily as green.  

Vroman has the right idea in running Key/Vault in Fish.  I would submit that Key/Vault and tutors to access it serves the same function as Tarmogoyf... a clock.  Hence, a Fish list running Key/Vault doesn't have as much a pressing need to run Goyf and the slots can be dedicated to something more disruptive.  

This is the list I have currently.  It has room for polishing.

Mana:
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Toolbox/Draw:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Voltaic Key
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 AEther Vial
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goblin Welder (bring back the Vault!)
1 Aven Mindcensor (why? Flying in the event of a creature standstill)

Broken:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Children of Korlis
2 Ancient Grudge
1 AEther Vial (Stax)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation
1 True Believer
1 Sacred Ground
1 Strip Mine (Stax, Fish, Bazaar)
1 Ethersworn Canonist

The list is flexible and fully capable of switching between all three roles: Aggro (thank you Exalted), Combo, Control.  Sensei is synergistic with Confidant, Enlightened, and Voltaic Key.  Running 4 Keys means that winning is often as easy as "End of Turn, Enlightened Tutor for Vault."  4 Keys also increases the frequency of "Oops, I win" hands.  

I tend to run a diversity of different cards to serve the same purpose and veer towards a toolbox approach.  Magic presents a lot of bizarre situations--diversity gives flexibility to a skilled player to circumvent things creatively and to avoid being completely locked out.  

1 AEther Vial.  Why?  Well why not.  It's functioning here as a mana smoother and potential tutor target v. control or Stax.  1 more resides in the sideboard.  

Vexing Shusher here not only forces through our defensive options (Qasali, Ethersworn) but is also a powerhouse in forcing through our own Vault/Key win.  Very very handy.  

That's all for now.  

[CowWithHat]

This is the list I have currently.  It has room for polishing.

Mana:
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Toolbox/Draw:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Voltaic Key
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 AEther Vial
1 Tormod's Crypt

Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goblin Welder (bring back the Vault!)
1 Aven Mindcensor (why? Flying in the event of a creature standstill)

Broken:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Children of Korlis
2 Ancient Grudge
1 AEther Vial (Stax)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation
1 True Believer
1 Sacred Ground
1 Strip Mine (Stax, Fish, Bazaar)
1 Ethersworn Canonist

This "enlightened fish" deck that you submit plays very few cards that interact with the opponent.  In the main deck I believe it has these
Tormod's crypt
Aven Mindcensor
2 ethersworn canonist
4 quasali pridemage
2 goblin welder
3 vesxing shusher

That is 13 cards.  The point of this deck is not to disrupt, it is to win with a degenerate combo consistently.

The following list is an example of a BUG fish list already posted in this thread.

BUG Fish

Land (19):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Bayou

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Null Rod

Creatures (13):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants (13):
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries (7):
1 Time Walk
1 Life From The Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress

The cards that this deck plays which are reactive (and by that I mean with the capacity to directly impact the opponents cards) are as follows,
4 Duress
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Trygon Predator
4 Null Rod
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

That is 27 (edit: I wrote 26 initially); a full double the amount of cards in your "enlightened fish" deck which play that role.  Fish is defined by these reactive roles that it plays.  It is essential to note that these two decks are not even in a similar vein.  BUG, and in my opinion UWG and UWB, are designed to play control through and through.

Fish is based on disruption of the opposing strategy.  This list that you have presented is not.  Your strategy is to resolve time vault and voltaic key.  The cards that fish plays to disrupt its opponent (what I consider playing a reactive role) are the theme and the strategy of the deck.  The cards that "Enlightened Fish" plays which interact with its opponent (its cards with a reactive role) are played to facilitate the combo.  They do not play off each other gaining synergy as each successive piece resolves.  They act to make sure your goal of some degenerate win occurs.  The two strategies are almost completely opposite.

I do not mean to offend you or insult your list, I merely submit that Enlightened Fish has no place in the discussion of which of the three big fish ideas (UWG, BUG, and BUW) is best.

[brianpk80]

Fish is based on disruption of the opposing strategy.  This list that you have presented is not.  

I'm aware of the historical definition of "Fish."  You are correct that it deviates from it.  Personally, I name anything that uses common Fish creatures a "Fish" deck.  It's a mere naming convention. 

Please show a list so we can see what it is you are talking about.

I do not mean to offend you or insult your list, I merely submit that Enlightened Fish has no place in the discussion of which of the three big fish ideas (UWG, BUG, and BUW) is best.

I'm not offended, but I am certainly confused why one would ask me to post a list and then state that it doesn't belong in the thread where it was requested.  *shrug*

[CowWithHat]

When I asked to see a list I did not know what deck it was you were talking about.  I assumed what you were talking about was pertinent to the discussion.  I do not think the list you presented was pertinent to the discussion.  I still don't.  I don't see how talking about this deck with a completely different strategy will lead to any new or relevant ideas about the topic.

If you think that this "Enlightened Fish" list that you have contributes to the discussion of which of these controlling, creature based, mana denial decks is best primed to fight the metagame I would very much like to see how and why.

[brianpk80]

If you think that this "Enlightened Fish" list that you have contributes to the discussion of which of these controlling, creature based, mana denial decks is best primed to fight the metagame I would very much like to see how and why.

You asked a question about 4c/5c lists and the use of City of Brass.  That was the extent of its relevance and I peppered a few tidbits in the post to make it a more straightforward read.  I see no value in continuing this debate with you.   

[ErkBek]

BPK, Serenity should be somewhere in the main or board. It's a great Enlightened Tutor target.

[brianpk80]

BPK, Serenity should be somewhere in the main or board. It's a great Enlightened Tutor target.

That is excellent thinking.  Thank you Erik.

[Guli]

Normally it is someone else that will state the obvious but were is null rod? I have been bitch slapped on several occasions. Why is the vault/key win condition even an option for up to date fish? Months back I came with the idea of searching for alternatives for fish other than null rod and it was shot down because of null rod. Nowadays it is even more unacceptable not to run null rod if you ask me. We are in a meta that is running MORE artifact hate and NOW you guys are discussing tutors and artifacts that 'activate'.

Nothing personal Brian, trying to extra stimulate you to motivate your choice. This goes for the rest as well.

Personally (emotionally) I think this is great, we are actually talking (finally) about alternatives other than mana denial strategies. But we can't ignore the power of null rod. So whatever you are trading it for must be explained in detail.

[JThomas]

Normally it is someone else that will state the obvious but were is null rod? I have been bitch slapped on several occasions. Why is the vault/key win condition even an option for up to date fish? Months back I came with the idea of searching for alternatives for fish other than null rod and it was shot down because of null rod. Nowadays it is even more unacceptable not to run null rod if you ask me. We are in a meta that is running MORE artifact hate and NOW you guys are discussing tutors and artifacts that 'activate'.

Nothing personal Brian, trying to extra stimulate you to motivate your choice. This goes for the rest as well.

Personally (emotionally) I think this is great, we are actually talking (finally) about alternatives other than mana denial strategies. But we can't ignore the power of null rod. So whatever you are trading it for must be explained in detail.

I think it's interesting to explore fish variants for sure but I feel as though the Null Rod is really still important.   
There are two main benefits I see for the inclusion of Null Rod which still seem pertinent to the current meta.

1. Tezz, Oath w/Vault, SCV are all dangerous opponents because they can just randomly win with the vault/key/tezz combo.
Null Rod produces a blocker which must be removed before they can combo out.   This buys you time for your creatures to seal the deal.
2. You also get the benefit of shutting down many mana sources which also slows them down hopefully enough for you to land a kill.

Creatures are a slower kill condition than other options and for that reason you need to bring the game speed down to actually
get them in there.   I've seen plenty of times a lethal swing of creatures on the table rendered useless by our favorite artifact combination.
Even a goyf is a slow mover in the current environment when you compare it to the Vault/Key combo and Oath which pushes
the limit with creatures which all have haste or in the case of Iona an incredibly disruptive element to the game.

For these reasons I think it is probably a mistake to remove Null Rods (or Challice of the Void as an alternative)
when looking at current Vintage.

Now if you want to talk about a deck more or less dedicated to going all out with a Time Vault strategy that's a different matter entirely but I can't help but wonder
if you're making a mistake due to the fact that artifact hate abounds so you're potentially walking right into that with less control than Tezz and even Oath.


Just some thoughts.   
I like the 'enlightened' decklist and I would be interested to play it and see how it fares against the current meta.