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Author Topic: Vintage Adept Q&A #6: Weapon of Choice  (Read 5580 times)
Demonic Attorney
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« on: September 29, 2009, 02:03:04 pm »

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What storm build do you prefer in today's meta? TPS, GWSx, Grim Long or ANT, and why? P
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 03:54:50 pm »

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What storm build do you prefer in today's meta? TPS, GWSx, Grim Long or ANT, and why? P

Let me start with the 'why'.  

I will advance of a model of thinking about Storm combo in Vintage that is different than how it is traditionally conceptualized.    Let me first explain the traditional model and then highlight it's limitations. Then I will set out my revised model.  

The traditional approach posits that all Storm decks fall on a long continuum of speed to resilience.  

Resilience                                                                   Speed
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

The idea is simple: as you increase your deck's fundamental speed, inching ever closer to that idealized turn one kill, you  trade-off the tools necessary to survive a counter-assault or to combat opposing stratagems.   There are three basic (interrelated) reasons for this.  

The first reason is that the faster you design a deck the greater the variance of it's opening hand, and the less consistency it will have in that regard.

Consider three facts:

Fact1 :Tthe minimum number of cards per deck is 60.
Fact2: you cannot run more than 4 copies of a given card (except basic land).
Fact3: you start the game with a 7.5 card hand, sans mulligans

When you combine these three facts with the fact that the best mana accelerants are restricted, collectively, they place a fundamental limit on how fast your deck can be on average, and on the acceptable range of hands you are likely to draw.  The faster your deck becomes, the higher the 'failure' rate will be.   As you increase the speed of keepable hands, you will also increase your mulligan rate.    There are many reasons for this.   For example, as you include more mana accelerants, you will have fewer win conditions or ways to find them.  

That leads to a second reason: in order to speed up your deck you *must* to include more mana accelerants, which leaves less room for disruption or answers to common counter-tactics.   This reduces a deck's resilience.

Third, as you speed up your deck, certain cards, like land, become less important.  Decks which plan on playing at least two turns of Magic will often want to include enough lands to give them a chance of seeing two lands in their first 8-9 cards.    However, if your objective is to play only one turn of Magic, then every additional land you might draw detracts from that objective.   Therefore, lands, which are essential for mana stability in the face of Spheres, Chalices, and the like, are often cut in favor of other forms of acceleration, all the while making your deck less resilient to Null Rod, Chalice, and Sphere.    So, it is not just that you have less room for disruption or bounce/removal spells, you will also find yourself pressured to cut cards that allow you to use those spells.     Your need for speed will incline you to cut bounce spells and disruption, which will make it more likely that you'll shave off an additional land or more.  

So, consider the continuum again.  Here's how we might map combo decks onto them:

Resilience                                                                   Speed
<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Drain Tendrils         Intuition Tendrils          Grim Long  Belcher  
                    TPS                      GWSx                        ANT  SX

Both Belcher and ANT are built to win on turn one.   Belcher wants to play an Empty the Warrens or a Belcher on turn one.   ANT wants to play Ad Nauseam on turn one.    Decks like GWSx or Grim Long are slower, but capable of winning one, but really aim for turn two.  

Perhaps the most symbolic divide among this continuum is the presence -- or lack thereof -- of Force of Will.   You'll notice that all the decks on the left side of the continuum feature Force, while all the decks to the right do not.   Force of Will, for the three reasons explained above, slows down the deck, but increases its overall resiliency.  

This first approach to thinking about storm combo is rarely expressed in such stark, clear terms, but it is nonetheless pervasive.   It is deeply rooted in our thinking about Storm combo.   It is implicit in virtually every conversation prompt like the question posed at the outset.  

Graphically, this relationship is linear.   If you were to graph it on an X-Y axis, it look like this:



However, I think that this approach is wrong.   It provides useful, helpful information.  But it also misleads.

In actual reality the graph is  bowed outward or concave.    Why might this be?   This might be the case for a number of reasons, but one of which is most important.

On the cartesian grid under the traditional view, Speed and Resilience were posited as separate axis (and they were opposing, or trade-offs on the continuum perspective).  In reality, speed is a form of resilience.   The faster you are, the more resilient you will naturally be to certain forms of disruption, tactics, and strategies.   To take a very simple example, a deck that tries to win consistently by turn two will bypass Mana Drain a good deal of the time.  

If I am right, that the graph bows out rather than is linear or nearly perfectly linear downsloping, then the place to position yourself is on the outermost point of the bubble.   You want a deck that combines a good deal of resilience *and* speed without greatly sacrificing much of either.  

I believe that deck is probably TPS.   TPS has a number of critical advantages.   First, it has the absolute best disruption suite in the game: Force of Will and Duress, with a Misdirection.   Secondly, it includes the best accelerants in the game in an attempt to fully utilize all of the best restricted power cards that aren't run in the Drain restricted list, like MInd's Desire, Necropotence, and Timetwister.    Third, it has great resilience by including a few key bonce spell, just in case something slips through the disruption suite, and the deck has plenty of tutors to find those key answers.  

That doesn't mean that other decks are bad choices.   Nor does that mean I'm right.    First of all, someone might contest the assumption that we want to maximize both resilience and speed, or that these are even relevant metrics.    And they might be right.    I am assuming that both resilience and speed are closely related to winning games, but they may not be as important as other factors.  

« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 09:46:21 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 01:27:00 pm »

I like Steve's Explanation of the "Bowed Outward" Relationship between Speed and Resilience.  Anyone who studies these give-and-take relationships will usually see this type of trend.  

A classic example of this is the Economic Idea of the "Production Possibilities Curve"  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production-possibility_frontier


Think of your deck as a factory, you have enough budget to hire 60 workers.  Your factory can make two things:  Coat Racks or Spice Racks.  And the profits for those Items are identical.  

If you hired 60 workers all for Coat Rack production let’s say you could produce 100 coat racks in one day.  If you hired 60 workers for Spice Rack production you could produce 100 spice racks in one day.  However if you decide to hire 30 Workers for Coat Racks, and 30 Workers for Spice Racks, you end up producing say 60 of each item; or a total of 120 items.  Thus earning you more profit.

This is because the pool of workers isn't Uniform.  Out of 1000 people, you'd be better off hiring the top 30 Coat Rack makers, and the top 30 Spice Rack makers.  Instead of the top 60 of either.  The driving concept being that 30 best of one trade will naturally out produce the 31st to 60th best of the other.

This is a very simple example... but its application can be extrapolated out.

If you think of your combo deck in the same way, out of 60 cards if you choose a good mix of the 30 fastest cards and the 30 most resilant cards the product at the end is greater than the 60 best of either.  Again the benefit comes from the disparety found within the pool of resources.  You can't run more than one Lotus, much in the same way you can hire more than one Bob McLaith the Legendary Coat Rack Smith.  If you go all in on speed, then you end up running cards like Simian Spirit Guide over Force of Will - comperable to Hiring Fumbly-Pete over Mrs.Dash the Spice Rack Queen.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 01:39:24 pm by Harlequin » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 03:38:59 pm »

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Think of your deck as a factory

As much as the next guy, I like analogies that serve to make complicated ideas more accessible...provided their simplification doesn't mislead.

I think the factory analogy is useful for showing how magic's inherent design limitations (i.e., the restricted list and 4 max) lend advantage to those that play the most powerful cards (your Fow <> SSG comment).

However, more than most other archetypes, Storm Combo seems to rely on raw synergy by using a cycle of mana and cards to reach ten spells.  These are decks that have used relatively underwhelming cards like land grant and eggs to stunning effect.  Here is where I really like Steve's focus on context to reveal a cards power.

The flip side of this is the extent to which Storm decks demand the environment respond with effective hate, and in turn, how their playability is limited by it.

Quote
In reality, speed is a form of resilience.   The faster you are, the more resilient you will naturally be to certain forms of disruption, tactics, and strategies.   To take a very simple example, a deck that tries to win consistently by turn two will bypass Mana Drain a good deal of the time.

This is the rub.  There's a relationship between storm's ability to become resilient (through speed or 'disruption') to the common 'control' cards and then there's the metagame response by adding appropriate (often faster) cards such as chalice, spheres, remora/commandeer.  I can't read Steve's mind, but I would guess this is a key part of the consideration he makes when choosing when to speed past reactive cards and when he chooses to build his own disruption into his storm lists.
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 07:19:45 pm »

I'm not as experienced with combo as I am with other archetypes, but I wouldn't consider myself entirely unfamiliar with it, either.  Right now, were I to run a combo deck in a Vintage tournament, I'd probably use 2.5c Pitch Long.

I agree with Smmenen that the various iterations of combo exist on a continuum between explosiveness/speed, and consistency/resiliency.  I also more or less agree with how he's assigned the different flavors of combo along that spectrum.  But, I take a different view with respect to the best choice for today's metagame.

Notwithstanding the ability of Vault/Key to come from nowhere and steal victories for 4 colorless mana, I think the format today is slower than it's been in a very long time.  The dominant draw engine is Dark Confidant, a creature that doesn't generate net positive card advantage for 2 turns after being played.  This means that, against blue-based control, there's a 2-turn window where an aggressive early start can punch though before the opponent's draw engine has a chance to get online.  If I were playing combo, I'd want to have the most tools to win inside that window as possible.  Early-game decks, like Long, make the most of that chance.

However, going to far to the "speed" side of the spectrum means you create the very real risk of game losses stemming from natural variation in your opening draws.  Belcher has always been infamous for this.  ANT, at least in my limited experience with it, seems to have a very similar problem.  Straight Grim Long is more manageable, but I'm just not comfortable running a deck without Force in a metagame where your opponent can open with Tezzeret or Vault/Key in the first 2 turns.

Also, at this present juncture in Vintage history, Mindbreak Trap is seeing a great deal of play.  As a new card, the novelty factor alone will draw players to using it.  But more significantly, Mindbreak Trap, on its own merits, is a powerful countermeasure against Storm.  It's relevant on the first turn, it doesn't cut down on blue cards to support Force of Will, and most importantly of all, it's accessible to any deck in the format, from Ichorid to Stax. 

Having access to Xantid Swarm provides a strong postboard answer to Mindbreak Trap, allowing you to stay one step ahead in the sideboarding game.  You don't need to worry as much about permanent-based hate like Ethersworn Canonist, which has become very rare, at least in the New England metagame. 
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 09:43:15 pm »

I have a question: by 2.5c long, you basically mean TPS with green, or are you referring to something else?   
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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 10:49:21 pm »

I mostly agree with DA although I would say Grim Long.

Xantid Swarm is important for defeating Mystic Remora as well as counters.

The reason I believe either Grim/Pitch Long is the way to go has to do with Dark Confidant.  That is the primary draw engine now.  As a draw engine it badly wants a long game.  Thirst sees 3 cards on turn 2 off a Mox, but Dark Confidant only sees 1 card by turn 2.  The way to beat Dark Confidant is to win early.  Running more disruption and less gas as TPS does is dangerous because you are delaying a game where you are being outdrawn 2-1.
The exception is of course a TPS list that runs Dark Confidant.

Grim Long's weaker mana base against Stax and Fish is mitigated by the ability to run Empty the Warrens post board.
Empty the Warrens also helps dodge Jester's Cap effects.
Pitch Long could dodge these with Regrowth in the board along with DSC, 2xTendrils and ESGs, but I have never seen nor tested such a list.
Although it is a close call between 2.5 Color Pitch Long and Grim Long I would give the edge to Grim Long.
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 03:50:55 pm »

Steve,

I'm talking about a list along these lines, but equipped with Xantid Swarm in the board.  I don't like categorizing decks in terms of their similarity to prior innovations, because that invariably leads to arguing who gets the proper "credit."  But, if I had to classify the list I had in mind when answering, it would be very close to my old Pitch Long deck, which I consider to be a hybrid of TK's Pitch Long list and JDizzle's 2.5c Long concept, leaning close to TK's ideas.  

I consider this list more aggressive than TPS, but I think it might be able to handle Mindbreak Trap between the Forces, Duresses, and Swarms.  
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 12:15:14 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 05:20:43 pm »

As a caveat, I would just note that the content of my answer, which was composed on Oct. 6, was written in a pre-Zendikar metagame.   
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