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waffles
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« on: October 03, 2009, 02:01:37 pm » |
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i have another idea not sure if it would be compeditive but here we go. The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. trying to figure out how to deal wtih shroud has me stumped, might try having them come into play tapped or just outright counter them. So far i was thinking that i could be WU dont know about if it should be more than 2 colors. The only win condition i could come up with is Liability or Tarmogoyf. Also, do you guys think that i could pull off enchanted Evening in this format?
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CorwinB
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2009, 02:39:30 pm » |
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One of the problems with this kind of deck is that you generally end up with many dead cards in your hand. For example, if your opponent is playing without creatures, then all your Plowshares/Path to Exile... are useless. And even if you don't consider corner cases like creatureless decks, there are times when you'll really need a Disenchant and you'll draw a Plowshares instead.
Another problem is that many of those removal cards are 1 for 1, so again a more efficient deck you will end out of steam quickly. Of course, you could run some large scale destruction spells, but if the opponent is careful not to overextend you will have the exact same problem.
I don't remember who said "There are lots of wrong answers, but there is never a wrong threat", but that applies a lot to totally reactive decks like the one you describe : if all you do is wait for the opponent to play something so that you can counter/blow it, a careful opponent can play around your deck easily.
There are some cards that work well with a mass destruction plan, however, like man-lands. You could imagine a deck (not competitive, but decent casual level) where you would a good amount several man-lands in order to force your opponent to commit creatures to the board (in order to stop the bleeding), after which you would go one for many with a Wrath of God / Day of Judgement. Running tappers (creatures or Icy) is also a good way to force your opponent to play more than he would like. All of this doesn't work well in the face of a good combo, though.
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silvernail
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2009, 04:00:43 pm » |
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There were decks like this before in some sense. Prison decks, 5c donais control, The Deck etc could answer all threats and eventually win with one or two cards.
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waffles
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2009, 10:17:53 pm » |
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One of the problems with this kind of deck is that you generally end up with many dead cards in your hand. For example, if your opponent is playing without creatures, then all your Plowshares/Path to Exile... are useless. And even if you don't consider corner cases like creatureless decks, there are times when you'll really need a Disenchant and you'll draw a Plowshares instead.
Another problem is that many of those removal cards are 1 for 1, so again a more efficient deck you will end out of steam quickly. Of course, you could run some large scale destruction spells, but if the opponent is careful not to overextend you will have the exact same problem.
I don't remember who said "There are lots of wrong answers, but there is never a wrong threat", but that applies a lot to totally reactive decks like the one you describe : if all you do is wait for the opponent to play something so that you can counter/blow it, a careful opponent can play around your deck easily.
There are some cards that work well with a mass destruction plan, however, like man-lands. You could imagine a deck (not competitive, but decent casual level) where you would a good amount several man-lands in order to force your opponent to commit creatures to the board (in order to stop the bleeding), after which you would go one for many with a Wrath of God / Day of Judgement. Running tappers (creatures or Icy) is also a good way to force your opponent to play more than he would like. All of this doesn't work well in the face of a good combo, though.
compulsion would work in the case that i have a dead card, discard it for another card. But, how would they play around it? if they do something they i can do something. the counter is there to keep the shroud stuff off the board and the other stuff can be dealt with via targeted removal. the only decks that i think i would have an issue with are tps and ichroid, the rest use stuff i could blow up. Sample decklist, this is a very rough idea. 4 Illumination 4 Aura of Silence 4 Disenchant 4 Annul 4 Hide // Seek 3 Krosan Grip 4 Titania's Song 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 3 Compulsion 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Swords to Plowshares 1 Mox Diamond 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire |
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jaeppel
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2009, 06:33:06 pm » |
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Illumination? what? i had to look that one up, as no one has ever played it. You should check out this little card called annul if you want to do that. But actually i would probably not run annul over Spell Pierce, which is what everyonr should new be running (or at least in a month or so when its legal.) The only use i can think of for illumination is in a mirror universe/Test of endurance combo deck, but that really wouldnt be very competitive.
There is nothing wrong with the smash everything idea, but it has to be balanced with solid meaningful threats. Goyf is there, but he really needs friends that actually do something. Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Qasali Pridemage, Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic are all the sort of cards that reinforce a blow up everything game plan with legs that turn sideways to deal damage.
Titanias song is really bad. There are better ways to kill moxen and better ways to make your artifacts into an army. Null rod comes to mind.
If you play hide/seek, you really must stay only in those 3 colors imo, and no mana drain doesnt fit the mana curve at all.
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Most decks are better with restricted cards.
Restrict: Drain, Workshop, Bazaar, Skullclamp.
Unrestrict: LoAlexandria, Manavault, Frantic Search, Burning Wish, FoFiction,TfK, Regrowth, 3sphere, DemConsultation.
Fix: Zodiac Dragon, Transmute Artifac
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waffles
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2009, 11:11:59 pm » |
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Illumination? what? i had to look that one up, as no one has ever played it. You should check out this little card called annul if you want to do that. But actually i would probably not run annul over Spell Pierce, which is what everyonr should new be running (or at least in a month or so when its legal.) The only use i can think of for illumination is in a mirror universe/Test of endurance combo deck, but that really wouldnt be very competitive.
There is nothing wrong with the smash everything idea, but it has to be balanced with solid meaningful threats. Goyf is there, but he really needs friends that actually do something. Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Qasali Pridemage, Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic are all the sort of cards that reinforce a blow up everything game plan with legs that turn sideways to deal damage.
Titanias song is really bad. There are better ways to kill moxen and better ways to make your artifacts into an army. Null rod comes to mind.
If you play hide/seek, you really must stay only in those 3 colors imo, and no mana drain doesnt fit the mana curve at all.
i was running annul in the 1st fleshing out of the deck, but the rest are great ideas. hide/seek i just threw in, the song i put it in there to kill mox and to keep other 0 cost off the board in addtion to making other artifacts useless besides being a beat stick. im not trying to make mine into an army. but you have a good point, that it is too slow for this format. I'm only using blue for counter and draw is there a better way to do this or am i pretty much stuck with it? Because i would like to run red for some its smash effects, but i dont want to get over 2-3 colors. new decklist, changes welcomed White Spells 4 Illumination 4 Aura of Silence 4 Disenchant 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Aven Mindcensor Blue 4 Annul 4 Spell Pierce 4 Force of Will 4 Mana Drain 3 Compulsion 1 Ancestrall Recall 1 Brainstorm Green 3 Krosan Grip 4 Qasali Pridemage 4 Calming Verse 3 Gaddock Teeg 4 Tarmogoyf 2 Aura shards lands 4 wasteland 1 strip mine 4 tundra 4 tropical island 4 Savannah 1 Bazaar of Baghdad possible red cards are meltdown, mox monkey, and lands to support that Plateau, Taiga, Volcanic island. I might use kill switch, or Null rod |
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Wagner
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 03:51:24 pm » |
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Did you even goldfish with that list?
79 cards and only 18 lands?
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waffles
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 05:12:02 pm » |
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Did you even goldfish with that list?
79 cards and only 18 lands?
yes, i know its big, culling would be nice, but what should be cut? |
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Beralt
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 08:56:02 pm » |
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Do you really need 41 cards maindeck that can deal with enchantments?
As a starting point, cut 4 Calming Verse, cut 4 Disenchant, cut 4 Illumination, cut 1 Aura Shards, cut 2 Aura's of Silence, cut 1 Krosan.
Consider adding
Time Walk, Regrowth, Enlightened Tutor, Crop Rotation, Fetchlands and some type of way to deal with Graveard.
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waffles
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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 10:20:41 pm » |
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Do you really need 41 cards maindeck that can deal with enchantments?
As a starting point, cut 4 Calming Verse, cut 4 Disenchant, cut 4 Illumination, cut 1 Aura Shards, cut 2 Aura's of Silence, cut 1 Krosan.
Consider adding
Time Walk, Regrowth, Enlightened Tutor, Crop Rotation, Fetchlands and some type of way to deal with Graveard.
all of them deal with artifacts as well |
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silvernail
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 08:48:00 pm » |
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Ok I'm going to off the top a random list of a 5 color control deck and you can tweek as you like:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk / Time Warp
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Worm Harvest
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
2 Life From the Loam
2 Gaea's Blessing or Volrath's Stronghold + Academy Ruins
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Island
This has Pulses, Deeds and Explosives to blow stuff up and then you win with Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Factories or Worm Harvest. It runs blessing or recusion lands to avoid decking yourself and get stuff back.
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waffles
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 07:51:29 pm » |
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think ill just go with WR with a mild aggro component
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Bibendum
Basic User
Posts: 351
Majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 10:29:49 pm » |
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Go with W/R aggro with a splash of oldschool eternal renewal /Goblin bombardmant/ Ornithopter in the middle of all your hate cards  |
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The Going Get Tough, The Tough Get Debt
Don't Pay Attention, Pay The Rent
Next Of Kins Pay For Your Sins
A Little Faith Should Keep Us Safe
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waffles
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2009, 04:33:14 am » |
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Think i have it, is this anywhere near compeditive?
Red Spells
4 Molten Frame
4 Artifact Blast
Red Creatures
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Dwarven Blastminer
4 Gorilla Shaman
White spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
1 Balance
2 Gilded Light
White Creatures
2 Angelic Curator
4 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Soltari Visionary
Lands
6 Plains
1 Strip Mine
6 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
-------------------------------
SB: 4 Rule of Law
SB: 4 Rune of Protection: Artifacts
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
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MEATROCKET
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 01:17:02 pm » |
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No, that is not anywhere near being competitive. In any format. Ever. I don't want to sound like a jackass, but you really cannot justify playing these AWFUL cards. These cards are laughable, really, as no competitive deck would be afraid of them at all.
Take Molten Frame, for example. Why is this card in your deck? It can't kill Inkwell, Darksteel Colossus, OR Sphinx. Are you that afraid of Juggernaut?
Why Soltary Visionary? Your only target ever would be an Oath. There are much better ways to combat Oath than a terrible, narrow creature.
Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
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Yare
Zealot
Full Members
Basic User
Posts: 1215
Playing to win
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 01:23:28 pm » |
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Arid Mesa x4 would likely be a good addition to this deck, though I must agree that I don't see this deck being competitive, at least just looking at the decklist.
Additionally, regarding a deck being competitive, try it out a few times against top tier decks to see how it does. It's difficult to just eyeball a decklist and know if it's good or not. Only though testing can higher level synergies become obvious, allowing the deck to be further refined.
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waffles
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2009, 02:13:29 pm » |
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Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. |
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MEATROCKET
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2009, 05:01:36 pm » |
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Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. Okay, let's say that's your goal. Is Molten Frame optimal? What about Angelic Curator? What creatures do you expect to destroy/block with these cards? I actually lol'd when I read Angelic Curator (yeah I had to look it up). It's awful. I like what your goal is. I think targeting artifacts as a means to deny mana is a sound strategy. And it helps that the best win condition in the format is a two artifact combo, so your mana-hate becomes doubly effective. BUT...Ancient Grudge and Goblin Welder are both better than every card you've chosen. You also don't really have much of a clock. Goyf needs to be in here. In order to be competitive you will probably need Null Rod. It's that good right now. RGW could be some sweet colors for this deck. Also, what's up with your enchantment hate? There's only one enchantment you would ever worry about - Oath - and it doesn't warrant as much hate as you've been packing, especially when your hate is as narrow as Visionary and Hedge-Mage. |
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waffles
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2009, 10:19:42 pm » |
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Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. Okay, let's say that's your goal. Is Molten Frame optimal? What about Angelic Curator? What creatures do you expect to destroy/block with these cards? I actually lol'd when I read Angelic Curator (yeah I had to look it up). It's awful. I like what your goal is. I think targeting artifacts as a means to deny mana is a sound strategy. And it helps that the best win condition in the format is a two artifact combo, so your mana-hate becomes doubly effective. BUT...Ancient Grudge and Goblin Welder are both better than every card you've chosen. You also don't really have much of a clock. Goyf needs to be in here. In order to be competitive you will probably need Null Rod. It's that good right now. RGW could be some sweet colors for this deck. Also, what's up with your enchantment hate? There's only one enchantment you would ever worry about - Oath - and it doesn't warrant as much hate as you've been packing, especially when your hate is as narrow as Visionary and Hedge-Mage. So swap out the visionary with erase and be done with it? ill ditch the vandals, for the welders. add in meltdown, dropping molten frame. Honestly, im just not really sure how to go about building this because, there isnt a deck out there like it. i know green would be good but i wanted to keep it a 2 color deck. now that i think of it i could achieve the same results with GR well, i would lose the swords/path and balance. Whould you have a good shell that would help me get started? |
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MEATROCKET
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2009, 11:51:53 pm » |
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Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. Okay, let's say that's your goal. Is Molten Frame optimal? What about Angelic Curator? What creatures do you expect to destroy/block with these cards? I actually lol'd when I read Angelic Curator (yeah I had to look it up). It's awful. I like what your goal is. I think targeting artifacts as a means to deny mana is a sound strategy. And it helps that the best win condition in the format is a two artifact combo, so your mana-hate becomes doubly effective. BUT...Ancient Grudge and Goblin Welder are both better than every card you've chosen. You also don't really have much of a clock. Goyf needs to be in here. In order to be competitive you will probably need Null Rod. It's that good right now. RGW could be some sweet colors for this deck. Also, what's up with your enchantment hate? There's only one enchantment you would ever worry about - Oath - and it doesn't warrant as much hate as you've been packing, especially when your hate is as narrow as Visionary and Hedge-Mage. So swap out the visionary with erase and be done with it? ill ditch the vandals, for the welders. add in meltdown, dropping molten frame. Honestly, im just not really sure how to go about building this because, there isnt a deck out there like it. i know green would be good but i wanted to keep it a 2 color deck. now that i think of it i could achieve the same results with GR well, i would lose the swords/path and balance. Whould you have a good shell that would help me get started? Erase? Really? Do you think that card is good in Vintage right now (or ever)? No, I don't think you should drop Visionary for Erase because you don't freaking need any enchantment hate! Really, what's your deal with the enchantment hate? Why keep it two colors? Budget reasons? If so, I'm not sure where you could go with the deck, but even still, three colors isn't out of the question. Check out the Mountains Win Again thread in the Open forum. I think some people had RGW builds, or maybe some RG. You could start there. |
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waffles
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2009, 12:26:54 am » |
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Most of these cards are either straight up dead or just inferior to other choices. I can't even make any suggestions because I don't understand at all what you are trying to do with this deck.
The point of the deck would be to control via destroying artifacts/enchantments and removing creatures. Okay, let's say that's your goal. Is Molten Frame optimal? What about Angelic Curator? What creatures do you expect to destroy/block with these cards? I actually lol'd when I read Angelic Curator (yeah I had to look it up). It's awful. I like what your goal is. I think targeting artifacts as a means to deny mana is a sound strategy. And it helps that the best win condition in the format is a two artifact combo, so your mana-hate becomes doubly effective. BUT...Ancient Grudge and Goblin Welder are both better than every card you've chosen. You also don't really have much of a clock. Goyf needs to be in here. In order to be competitive you will probably need Null Rod. It's that good right now. RGW could be some sweet colors for this deck. Also, what's up with your enchantment hate? There's only one enchantment you would ever worry about - Oath - and it doesn't warrant as much hate as you've been packing, especially when your hate is as narrow as Visionary and Hedge-Mage. So swap out the visionary with erase and be done with it? ill ditch the vandals, for the welders. add in meltdown, dropping molten frame. Honestly, im just not really sure how to go about building this because, there isnt a deck out there like it. i know green would be good but i wanted to keep it a 2 color deck. now that i think of it i could achieve the same results with GR well, i would lose the swords/path and balance. Whould you have a good shell that would help me get started? Erase? Really? Do you think that card is good in Vintage right now (or ever)? No, I don't think you should drop Visionary for Erase because you don't freaking need any enchantment hate! Really, what's your deal with the enchantment hate? Why keep it two colors? Budget reasons? If so, I'm not sure where you could go with the deck, but even still, three colors isn't out of the question. Check out the Mountains Win Again thread in the Open forum. I think some people had RGW builds, or maybe some RG. You could start there. my deal is i must deal with both threats and i aways die to oath. Its just playstyle thing, really not a fan of more than two colors. if you are implying that i should just focus on smashing artifacts then i might go that direction or i just may conclude this will never be a compeditve deck and lay it to rest in the the stack of causal decks i have. |
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 12:48:24 am by waffles »
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silvernail
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2009, 10:10:51 am » |
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oath decks are running shroud guys and/or Iona ATM making it difficult to kill them. Swords/Path will do almost no good in such situations.
Black and blue can handle shroud guys with player based effects like Diabolic Edict and Curfew, but I don't know if r/w has anything for that.
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waffles
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2009, 12:28:50 pm » |
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oath decks are running shroud guys and/or Iona ATM making it difficult to kill them. Swords/Path will do almost no good in such situations.
Black and blue can handle shroud guys with player based effects like Diabolic Edict and Curfew, but I don't know if r/w has anything for that.
that was why i was running enchantment hate. |
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Beralt
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 05:03:29 pm » |
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I am going to second the G/W Beatings version suggestion - SMend even goes over other options that you could incorporate if you really wanted to - and it should do decent against Oath.
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waffles
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 08:13:59 pm » |
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I am going to second the G/W Beatings version suggestion - SMend even goes over other options that you could incorporate if you really wanted to - and it should do decent against Oath.
ive given up on this while it would work it wouldnt work well enough to win, to admit defeat, and say its another casual deck. |
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