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Author Topic: Wg Parfait  (Read 3641 times)
RecklessEmbermage
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« on: October 08, 2009, 03:18:45 pm »

I've started to work on a Parfait list, and would appreciate some thoughts, particularly if you have any experience with the engine.

I play in an unpowered no-proxy meta.

The list is intended to beat oath consistantly but needs game against a variety of combo decks, Sui and all kinds of aggro. As it stands, it may be weak to fast aggro decks, basically hoping to double and triple block and win the long game on the back of superior draw power. Testing will prove if this turns out to be the case and in the meantime, I'll assume I need anti-aggro sideboard.

Some graveyard-strategiy will probably need adressing, but if someone plays ichorid, it will be without bazaars.


4 land tax
4 aether vial
4 scroll rack
1 pithing needle
1 umezawa's jitte

4 path to exile
2 enlightened tutor

4 qasali pridemage
4 true believer
3 ethersworn canonist
2 gaddock teeg
3 jotun grunt

4 elvish spirit guide (these could become mox diamond if my budget allows)
1 sol ring

2 wooded foothills
1 savannah
1 temple garden
3 flagstones of trokair
4 plains
1 karakas
4 forest
2 lotus vale
1 strip mine

Sideboard:
1 gaddock teeg
1 jotun grunt
3 serra avenger
1 umezawa's jitte
1 pithing needle
3 relic of progenitus
3 abolish
2 cataclysm
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 07:40:16 pm by RecklessEmbermage » Logged
potato
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 03:49:32 pm »

If you need game against oath, combo and all kinds of aggro, have you considered the synergy of Land Tax with Solitary Confinement? Perhaps you should change over to a more control-oriented plan.

If people are likely to have Inkwell Leviathans, consider Tarrif over other removal options.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 04:16:02 pm »

If you need game against oath, combo and all kinds of aggro, have you considered the synergy of Land Tax with Solitary Confinement? Perhaps you should change over to a more control-oriented plan.

If people are likely to have Inkwell Leviathans, consider Tarrif over other removal options.

Though I like beating down, solitary confinement is an interesting option. What should I combine it with to actually win the game?

Path to exile has the very substantial upside of turning on land tax. Sphinx of the steel wind, darksteel colossus and a plethora of hasty monsters have been rearing their heads in my meta. I'll keep tariff in mind if I start seeing inkwells, progenitae and empyrial archangels.
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potato
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 04:59:12 pm »

Though I like beating down, solitary confinement is an interesting option. What should I combine it with to actually win the game?

Path to exile has the very substantial upside of turning on land tax. Sphinx of the steel wind, darksteel colossus and a plethora of hasty monsters have been rearing their heads in my meta. I'll keep tariff in mind if I start seeing inkwells, progenitae and empyrial archangels.

If you do go for a slow, controlling win, the traditional plan is to use Kjeldoran Outpost. Obviously, we can do better now, and Elspeth is a similar path to victory.

If I were running solitary confinement though, I would absolutely go for the new white ascension from zendikar.
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 06:22:26 pm »

I think what you have started here would do better to push the aggro-control elements rather than make it a more full blown control deck like traditional "Parfait" lists were that ran little-to-no-creatures. Given the meta you're playing in and assuming that you don't have access to 'Goyfs or Noble Heirarchs otherwise they'd be on the list somewhere here are some random comments.

Simian Spirit Guide seems really out of place. You can't use him to cast Teeg, Pridemage or True Believer at all and those seem like the backbone of your creature package. After turn one SSG loses a lot of umph in helping you get stuff into play. He's almost better as an on-color land. Unless you can directly replace him with Elvish Spirit Guides I'd cut them for some more useful and stable mana producers.

Have you given Empyrial Armor a try? It use to be a main stay in several of the old aggro Tax-Rack lists back in the day.

What type of combo are you facing in your meta that this deck needs help with?

Ronom Unicorn and STP would probably be good additions to your SB.

Keep plugging away at it. Looks like the start of a fun deck in an equally interesting metagame. Some of the funnest Vintage games I've played in were no power/no proxy environments. Enjoy it!
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 07:31:51 pm »

Though I like beating down, solitary confinement is an interesting option. What should I combine it with to actually win the game?

Path to exile has the very substantial upside of turning on land tax. Sphinx of the steel wind, darksteel colossus and a plethora of hasty monsters have been rearing their heads in my meta. I'll keep tariff in mind if I start seeing inkwells, progenitae and empyrial archangels.

If you do go for a slow, controlling win, the traditional plan is to use Kjeldoran Outpost. Obviously, we can do better now, and Elspeth is a similar path to victory.

If I were running solitary confinement though, I would absolutely go for the new white ascension from zendikar.

Luminarch ascension would be hilarious and finding out whether it's actually playable in a not-so-broken meta would be interesting. Still, I think the utterly defensive deck is a different project and also very, very far from my daily hunting grounds, so to speak. I'm probably not the right guy for building nor playing that deck.

I think what you have started here would do better to push the aggro-control elements rather than make it a more full blown control deck like traditional "Parfait" lists were that ran little-to-no-creatures. Given the meta you're playing in and assuming that you don't have access to 'Goyfs or Noble Heirarchs otherwise they'd be on the list somewhere here are some random comments.

If I had goyfs, there would be some in there, but hierarch? I hadn't considered it (possibly because I find 15 dollars a stupid price for a manabird), but I don't think I would run it. The deck has more important things to do turn one. #1 usually being vial and #2 sneaking in some disruption or playing land tax, depending on the situation.

Simian Spirit Guide seems really out of place. You can't use him to cast Teeg, Pridemage or True Believer at all and those seem like the backbone of your creature package. After turn one SSG loses a lot of umph in helping you get stuff into play. He's almost better as an on-color land. Unless you can directly replace him with Elvish Spirit Guides I'd cut them for some more useful and stable mana producers.

Hehe. SSG of course being ESG. You're probably the first person to notice it too.

I'm pretty sure that atleast a few of those should be mox diamond though, and will be proxying and testing a mix of the two to find out. Maybe I even should go up to 3 diamond and 2 ESG or something like that?

Have you given Empyrial Armor a try? It use to be a main stay in several of the old aggro Tax-Rack lists back in the day.

Empyrial armor is a hilarious suggestion. I used to be so respectful of that card when I was young. Still, I doubt that shaving off one mana makes it better than jitte in any match-up. If my board was full of soltari or fliers, I could possibly board one. The deck is trying to play tightly and conservatively, prefering to vial in its creatures and miss land drops. Going banzai with creature enchantments just seems out of character.

I'll go and read that article right now, by the way.

What type of combo are you facing in your meta that this deck needs help with?

It can be pretty much anything. The last time we got together: Helm of awakening/Top/Brainfreeze, Hermit druid-->Sutured ghoul, Painter/Grindstone, Elfball, Burn (which is more combo: burn or elves?) and Time vault (UB tezzeret).

I do think I've got most of that covered, and am more concerned about more interactive decks, like Rock or Merfolk, but if you have any suggestions, I'll be all ear. We have one player in particular that is notorious for burning his way to the semifinals, and I'd like ideas on how to make this strong against burn -Just to keep it logged in memory.

Ronom Unicorn and STP would probably be good additions to your SB.

I was considering viridian zealot, but am currently leaning towards abolish, since zealot is only good with active vial and abolish is kinda cheap. If enchantments somehow become more important than artifacts, kami/unicorn may very well deserve a few spots.

I'd really like to find a more elegant solution to aggro than stp and 4 paths should cover the "broken play into fatty" menace.

Keep plugging away at it. Looks like the start of a fun deck in an equally interesting metagame. Some of the funnest Vintage games I've played in were no power/no proxy environments. Enjoy it!

Thank you. I will!

I enjoy what you have been doing with TMWA, by the way.
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potato
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2009, 01:39:11 pm »

Smennen wrote an article called "the partfait ambush!" on SCG not long ago, designed for a modern balanced metagame. If yours is full of scrubby creature decks, it might not be the right thing for you, but perhaps you might want to check that out.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2009, 03:18:17 pm »

I would think WRb would be better than Wg.  Also I tihnk 4x Enlightend is the way to go.  Here would be the list I would run...

Mana Base --
9 Plains
5 Mountains
1 Swamp
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mox Diamond
3 Mox RWB

The deck's Core ----
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightend Tutor
3 Isochronic Scepter
3 Scroll Rack
1 Balance
1 Timevault
1 Voltaic Key

Disruptions / 2cc Instants for Scecptor
4 Hide//Seek
4 Abayance, Silence, or Orims Chant
3 Lava Dart

Enlightenment Package --
2 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Blood Moon
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon / Relic
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Goblin Trenches

So its not exactly "budget" but you could tweak stuff around for your meta.  I'm just demonstrating it from this perspective.  I would definately get 4x Mox Diamonds ASAP if you plan on running a land tax deck

At the heart of any good Parfait List is Land Tax and Scroll Rack.  Complimented by 4x ETutor and the unconventional 4x Isochroic Scepter.  And I figgure If I'm gunna run 4 tutors... why not TV-Key.  Its at least worth a shot right?

Hide and Seek is just too good to overlook in this type of deck.  Its centered on {W} castable off Sceptor and does two abilites you want -> extract+lifegain and disenchant that works on DSC.  It answers Tinker, Timevault, Oath and can severly cripple Combo (especailly if you can stick it to sceptor for a few turns).  

Lava Dart, Is a card I've been thinking alot about lately.  It just looks too good to pass up.  I like it much more than STP becuase of its ability to handle multipl X/1's AND its difficulty to counter.  With an expected rise in Mindcensor, Welder, and clearly Bob.  If Hide can cover Tinker, Dart is pure gold.  I think the only Danger at the momen is that hide doesn't cover Sphinx of the Steelwind.  So maybe some number of Path to Exiles are in order...

Outside of Landtax, Scroll Rack, Iso, and Infinte turns... I run an array of very useful artifacts and and Enchantments to help me deal with situations and, well technically win the game.

Win Conditions - Goblin Charbelcher + Goblin Trenches.  I really like the combination of these two cards.  Charbelcher is a great way to end the game for very little commitment.  Not only can you use tax to extract your lands, but you can use scroll rack to stack 5-6 cards then a mountain.  Which is a good amount of damage.  Running the mountains means you don't need to entirely clear your deck before Belcher can win you the game.  Trenches is a nice compliment to Humility.  It's also useful if your opponent has fewer lands than you, I think its better than Zuran Orb for equalization.

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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2009, 05:44:03 pm »

I would think WRb would be better than Wg.  Also I tihnk 4x Enlightend is the way to go.  Here would be the list I would run...

Mana Base --
9 Plains
5 Mountains
1 Swamp
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Mox Diamond
3 Mox RWB

The deck's Core ----
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightend Tutor
3 Isochronic Scepter
3 Scroll Rack
1 Balance
1 Timevault
1 Voltaic Key

Disruptions / 2cc Instants for Scecptor
4 Hide//Seek
4 Abayance, Silence, or Orims Chant
3 Lava Dart

Enlightenment Package --
2 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Blood Moon
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon / Relic
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Goblin Trenches

So its not exactly "budget" but you could tweak stuff around for your meta.  I'm just demonstrating it from this perspective.  I would definately get 4x Mox Diamonds ASAP if you plan on running a land tax deck

At the heart of any good Parfait List is Land Tax and Scroll Rack.  Complimented by 4x ETutor and the unconventional 4x Isochroic Scepter.  And I figgure If I'm gunna run 4 tutors... why not TV-Key.  Its at least worth a shot right?

Hide and Seek is just too good to overlook in this type of deck.  Its centered on {W} castable off Sceptor and does two abilites you want -> extract+lifegain and disenchant that works on DSC.  It answers Tinker, Timevault, Oath and can severly cripple Combo (especailly if you can stick it to sceptor for a few turns).  

Lava Dart, Is a card I've been thinking alot about lately.  It just looks too good to pass up.  I like it much more than STP becuase of its ability to handle multipl X/1's AND its difficulty to counter.  With an expected rise in Mindcensor, Welder, and clearly Bob.  If Hide can cover Tinker, Dart is pure gold.  I think the only Danger at the momen is that hide doesn't cover Sphinx of the Steelwind.  So maybe some number of Path to Exiles are in order...

Outside of Landtax, Scroll Rack, Iso, and Infinte turns... I run an array of very useful artifacts and and Enchantments to help me deal with situations and, well technically win the game.

Win Conditions - Goblin Charbelcher + Goblin Trenches.  I really like the combination of these two cards.  Charbelcher is a great way to end the game for very little commitment.  Not only can you use tax to extract your lands, but you can use scroll rack to stack 5-6 cards then a mountain.  Which is a good amount of damage.  Running the mountains means you don't need to entirely clear your deck before Belcher can win you the game.  Trenches is a nice compliment to Humility.  It's also useful if your opponent has fewer lands than you, I think its better than Zuran Orb for equalization.

Though that list packs a bunch of fine cards and the synergy is amazing, it seems slow. I doubt it could win consistently against oath, mainly because playing and activating scepter takes a full four (or five with kicked orim's chant) mana the first go around. Have you tested this?

You basically hinge on drawing hide/seek and either having it imprinted (with humility or confinement back-up to deal with the first oath creature, since you have already used to turns worth of mana) or hardcasting it (targeting oath before its first trigger) and go looking for a more long-term solution.

My list can do that (pridemages), but it can also play true believer turn two (or one -I'm gonna get that playset of mox diamond). The possibility of playing these creatures with vial from turn three is also a real asset. Not only is it uncounterable -it's my way of capitalizing on card advantage without playing out a bunch of lands.

While scepter is good against aggro and you will have enough answers to null rod and other artifact hate postboard (eh.. argivian find?), it is slow when combatting blue decks (you can protect it with chants, but that costs a bunch of mana) and I'm therefore hesitant towards running it in a deck that does not run blue itself.
 
Enlightened tutor is also a somewhat hard-to-abuse card with an active land tax. I'll start out with two of them, then testing will tell if I need more or less. It is better in your list than it is in mine though, since you have a bigger toolbox and fewer other strong turn one plays.

Parfait will always suffer from playing too many permanents that "don't do anything", but while scepter is further taxing on your limited supply of mana, aether vial is actually freeing up mana. I'd try scepter and hide/seek in a shell that lets you play lands freely. Maybe TMWA with confidants?

...

And thank you for the suggestion. It made me think, and I may still be dead wrong.

...

Potato: I read that article, but I think pridemage is worth splashing green.

I'll go back and have another look though, in case I missed something..

EDIT: That deck looks great for handling TEPS and other storm decks, but weak in a diverse meta. It does play trinisphere main though, which may deserve a spot in my list.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 05:52:31 pm by RecklessEmbermage » Logged
Harlequin
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2009, 07:49:56 pm »

I would definatly agree that its a slower build.  however it leverages the power of Humility.  Oath can be answerd not only with Hide, but also with Aura of Silence (which not only makes it harder to play, but can also kill it) as well as Etutor for Humility.  If you can pull that off and then Seek Oath's one bounce spell - you basically auto-win.

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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2009, 09:09:05 pm »

I still dont think parfait really works with creatures. I also dont think parfait is a good choice on a budget since it needs lots of expensive artifact mana to run/proxies. A couple years ago i ran this up in new england:

WRb parfait

9 plains
5 mountains
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mox diamond
1 chrome mox
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring

4 land tax
4 scroll rack
4 isochron scepter
4 goblin charbelcher
1 goblin trenches
1 seal of cleansing

4 orim's chant
4 reb
4 swords to plowshares
4 lava dart
3 hide/seek
1 enlightened tutor
1 balance

SB varied alot

boil
rack and ruin
pyroclasm
tomod's crypt
mox jet
swamp
random hate

Isochron scepter eats counters or randomly wins games. Last tourney it won me 6 games (5 with chant) since they couldnt deal with it. Lava dart is the cheapest way to trigger tax and kill problem dudes. Goblin trenches is just retarded with tax, and if you somehow don't win with trenches (which doesnt happen that often), it will trigger tax enough to make belcher lethal. REB is needed since you need a way to say no and get a lot of your stuff to resolve.

For a budget unpowered meta, scepter-stuff is the way to go since that is effective vs cheap decks. The rest of the deck is meta dependent since you pretty much play hate cards and use tax-rack to find multiple copies of and get one to stick.

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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 04:20:24 pm »

Cephalidhunter and Harlequin: You may ultimately be right when it comes to the choice of colors and control vs aggro-control. I'm heavily biased towards beat-down and while I love hit/run on a stick, I'm more inclined to trying out a different strategy alltogether than super-defensive parfait. I'll get some playtesting done the upcoming week, to decide whether my WG shell is worth working on.

In the meantime, I'd really appreciate suggestions on how to build a white/green list. With creatures.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2009, 09:17:10 am »

If you want to go with creatures, then I would drop the Scroll-Tax engine all together.  Its got too many moving parts to be a side-theme in an aggro deck.  You'd be much better off running Null Rod and freeing up space for more cards (like Choke, Thorn, And Aven Mindcensor)
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 06:34:23 pm »

If you want to go with creatures, then I would drop the Scroll-Tax engine all together.  Its got too many moving parts to be a side-theme in an aggro deck.  You'd be much better off running Null Rod and freeing up space for more cards (like Choke, Thorn, And Aven Mindcensor)

I've done enough testing to conclude that I were wrong and this was very true. Frankly, this is the second time I try to incorporate scroll rack in an aggro list and though I didn't learn the first time around, I hope I have now.

Since I'm so bad at playing control, I'll let this deck slide. I basically bumped to thank Harlequin, Potato, Shakespeare and Cephalidhunter for the input.

For others that play aggro with utility bears in metas where null rod is not maindeckable: Skullclamp gets the job done.
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Cavius The Great
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2009, 03:42:35 pm »

I wouldn't run Lotus Vale it's too slow and vulnerable.

Have you considered Empyrial Plate in conjunction with Land Tax? It makes your creatures much beefier.

Throw in a Flyer like White Shield Crusader to equip a Plate on and you have a non-Snuff Outable, non-D. Blastable among other things, like beast with evasion.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 07:57:51 pm »

This thread was dead. Let it stay that way.
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