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Author Topic: Icon 10-10 report - double win - vroman  (Read 11873 times)
TopSecret
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2009, 12:16:13 pm »

Perhaps I am not being clear enough, although I fail to see what is unclear about what I have said.

collusion only comes up in very certain instances where the results are easy to predict and assign value to in a way obvious to both players, and if they are both risk-averse, a comfortable arrangement can be reached. these are outlier situations. the transparency of touranments will not be impacted to any detectable degree.

I am not suggesting that you are at fault in your math or logic.

I think you are incorrect because, generally speaking,
you are viewing the situation of a tournament in a vacuum
and ignoring the factors and influences that come from outside of a given tournament.

Because of this, I do not think this is a question that involves mathematics
as much as it is a question that involves the understanding of societal values and interactions.

As you have said, players have irrational expectations upon entering a tournament which do not necessarily line up with mathematical reality.
However, such irrational player expectations currently include the expectation that people win matches through "actual" Magic skill.
If collusion was legalized, these expectations would have to change for these people to continue playing tournament Magic.
Therefore, it is irrelevant that collusion would be a rare event and relatively inconsequential relative to the results of tournaments.
What is much more important is player expectations.

People who enter a tournament have an irrational expectation that those who win matches do so through skill,
as does society at large regarding competition in tournaments of any pastime or sport,
and consequently almost all Magic players and anyone who even considers trying out tournament Magic.

So, successfully legalizing collusion would need to involve changing these expectations of Magic players, and likely society at large,
because players would quit playing tournament Magic if it didn't line up with their expectations
and no new players would try tournament Magic if it didn't line up with their expectations.

If collusion was legalized and these expectations didn't change to accommodate this,
people would not play tournament Magic because it wouldn't line up with their expectations.

Given all of the above, legalizing collusion would take energy from all involved.
In fact, just discussing legalizing collusion takes energy from all involved.
In either instance, what is the upside to make this worth it?
It is important to identify the upside because I have just identified a downside,
and if something only has a downside and no upside
it is a big, fat waste of time.

You have suggested a "minor upside of letting players maximize their value in a few select situations where it is clearly in their best interest to make a deal".
Why is this an upside? Why does this matter?
Why do players in tournaments need one more method of maximizing their value within a tournament
in addition to playing Magic?

I can see no reason why this is an upside.
At best, this just gives individuals more personal freedom to do something
which you have already explained as something that any intelligent person would almost never want to do.
Why is this a good thing?

This is like giving students reaching sticks to more easily pull the fire alarm during a test.
Any intelligent student would almost never gain anything from pulling the fire alarm during a test,
and expending resources on obtaining and distributing these reaching sticks during tests would likely just piss everyone off
because almost no one would want to use them or care about them
and providing students with methods to pull fire alarms during tests
is, as far as most everyone is concerned, accomplishing nothing more
than making it easier for a very select, small group of individual students to do something that shouldn't be done in the first place.

I do not think this is an upside.

And even if it were a minor upside,
it would not come close to making up for the downsides I have already listed.

Assuming that the above is true, that there has been no actual, relevant upside presented for the legalization of collusion,
I think it is safe to conclude that discussing the legalization of collusion as such
is a big, fat waste of time
save the fact that revealing it as a big, fat waste of time
may prevent similar big, fat wastes of time from cropping up in the future.
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2009, 01:03:41 pm »

It's unenforceable now unless you're blatant, so just let them maintain the veil of integrity.
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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2009, 03:42:32 pm »


Pointing out why the above assertion is incorrect is a daunting task
because, as I perceive it, the scope and subtlety
of what you have not perceived regarding this topic
is of such a high degree
that it is difficult to communicate it to you without writing a post that is far too long.

As a result, I will attempt to explain what I think may clarify my point
without going into much detail.

[ridiculously long, rambling post]

[another ridiculously long, rambling post]


Priceless.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2009, 03:54:22 pm »


Pointing out why the above assertion is incorrect is a daunting task
because, as I perceive it, the scope and subtlety
of what you have not perceived regarding this topic
is of such a high degree
that it is difficult to communicate it to you without writing a post that is far too long.

As a result, I will attempt to explain what I think may clarify my point
without going into much detail.

[ridiculously long, rambling post]

[another ridiculously long, rambling post]


Priceless.

Best I could do. lol
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 03:57:11 pm by TopSecret » Logged

Ball and Chain
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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2009, 04:32:19 pm »

The point of a Magic tournament is that in theory the best player wins.

then practically every tournament Ive ever gone to has failed, bc the best player has tied in a finals split. bc smart ppl dont gamble $100+ on best 2 of 3 games of magic. its only a matter of degree to make the same decision earlier down the line, if theres a low-information-cost way to determine how much that match is worth.

Quote
"Maximizing your value" means staying home and going to work instead of playing.

obviously. I already conceded that point. I am discussing how to maximize value once you have committed to the tournament.

lastly, I am no longer reading TopSecret's poory formatted laundry lists of vague assertions
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2009, 05:19:22 pm »

lastly, I am no longer reading TopSecret's poory formatted laundry lists of vague assertions

You have said that there would be a minor upside from legalizing collusion. This does not outweigh the downside of alienating the majority of current and new players due to the stigma attached to collusion. With no relevant upside presented, discussing this further is a waste of time.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 05:33:29 pm by TopSecret » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2009, 06:07:01 pm »

wow, what a nice concise, one sentence way to express a point.

Quote
This does not outweigh the downside of alienating the majority of current and new players due to the stigma attached to collusion.

I disagree. if collusion were legalized, it would come up rarely, and ppl would forget about it, just like with m10 damage stacking change was predicted to alienate everyone and kill magic.
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« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2009, 08:06:41 pm »

wow, what a nice concise, one sentence way to express a point.

Quote
This does not outweigh the downside of alienating the majority of current and new players due to the stigma attached to collusion.

I disagree. if collusion were legalized, it would come up rarely, and ppl would forget about it, just like with m10 damage stacking change was predicted to alienate everyone and kill magic.

Thanks! I always appreciate feedback on the legibility of my posts.

I disagree that people would forget about collusion being legal. Damage stacking is specific to Magic, while the majority of society has a negative perception of collusion. This means legalized collusion would be criticized heavily by newer players and discourage people from playing in tournaments. This would have a negative impact on the longevity of tournament Magic. I do not think the minor upside you have provided outweighs this downside. If you do not present a relevant upside for legalizing collusion, discussing this further is a waste of time.
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2009, 08:30:41 pm »

discussing this further is a waste of time.
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2009, 09:37:07 am »

Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

This happens anyway.  I know that on the 2 teams I've been on AND the 1 I'm currently working with, we would all do this to you.   That's part of being on a team.  If I'm playing TPS and my opponent is playing Elves (an even worse matchup for Landstill than Dredge), then of course I'd be like "Take it down!" and concede to him.  It's part of team play.

This reminds me of "Outside assistance"...

Grand Prix Bangkok this year

#  Sunday, August 23: 4:51p.m. – Round 14: Shocking last minute change of results!
by Ray “blisterguy” Walkinshaw

Terry Soh has been given a Match Loss for outside assistance, eliminating him from the top 8, and letting Matteo Orsini Jones sneak in on 33 points!

According to Head Judge David Vogin, Soh’s opponent, Chikara Nakajima, while out of contention for the top 8, was apparently playing to help his friend’s tiebreakers (unsure which, possibly Kurihara). At one point, Nakajima got up to use the bathroom, and while he was away, his friend came by. Soh asked if he had won, and the friend answered yes. When Nakajima returned for the bathroom, Soh gave him the good news, and Nakajima conceded the match. But apparently folks, that’s outside assistance, thus Terry Soh receiving a Match Loss. A hard lesson to be learned, and no doubt about it.
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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2009, 06:05:27 pm »

I think this whole topic got framed wrong from the beginning.

Vroman's argument is that collusion is insignificant to the outcome of a tournament and should not be restricted.

I think the reality is that collusion is very significant to the outcome and it is occurring at the team level in spite of the fact that it is prohibited.

I think its well worth further discussing and exposing the influence of team collusion on vintage tournaments.

If a "no collusion" rule cannot be enforced such that teams are effectively prohibited from colluding beforehand then collusion should quite simply be allowed for everyone. Otherwise you clearly give teams an unfair advantage.
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2009, 04:50:23 am »

I think this whole topic got framed wrong from the beginning.

Vroman's argument is that collusion is insignificant to the outcome of a tournament and should not be restricted.

I think the reality is that collusion is very significant to the outcome and it is occurring at the team level in spite of the fact that it is prohibited.

I think its well worth further discussing and exposing the influence of team collusion on vintage tournaments.

If a "no collusion" rule cannot be enforced such that teams are effectively prohibited from colluding beforehand then collusion should quite simply be allowed for everyone. Otherwise you clearly give teams an unfair advantage.

Well stated and 100% agreed.  I am one of those players who plays IRL vintage on occasion and just because I don't have the time or dedication to be apart of a team, I shouldn't be at any disadvantage to those who do.  The only way I see this 'no collusion' rule enforceable (if you can call it that) is to have the T4 games played in isolation; thereby eliminating any information that would induce collusion in the first place.  Obviously this doesn't eliminate collusion all together, but it eliminates it at the time when collusion has the most significant impact on the outcome of the tournament.

Unfortunately, the logistics of applying such a solution is non trivial and is likely to piss off many TO's, especially those with smaller stores; ultimately ending in fewer places and/or occasions to play vintage competitively.

EDIT: Thought this topic deserves its own thread so I started one here
Apparently there already is one going on in the Advanced Vintage Forum. It would be nice if Basic users could put in their $0.02 but C'est la vie
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 10:38:50 pm by SiegeX » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2009, 08:19:50 pm »

This whole thing sounds like betting on a boxing match and paying the fighter to throw the match.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 12:06:44 am by waffles » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2009, 01:28:07 am »

This whole thing sounds like betting on a boxing match and paying the fighter to throw the match.

if mtg were a spectator sport w active gambling community, that would be an issue. as is, collusion is self contained to the paid entrants of the tourney
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2009, 02:29:05 am »

[Apparently there already is one going on in the Advanced Vintage Forum. It would be nice if Basic users could put in their $0.02 but C'est la vie

It's a bit silly that the discussion has been restricted to the Advanced Vintage Forum. Especially since they have neglected to touch upon the most important dimension of the whole issue . . .

Teams are actively colluding and rigging outcomes of tournaments right now. Restricting collusion only hides it from view but does not prevent it from occuring. It means that teams have an unfair advantage over individuals.

Its worth repeating that if a "no collusion" rule cannot be enforced such that teams are effectively prohibited from colluding beforehand then collusion should quite simply be allowed for everyone. Otherwise you clearly give teams an unfair advantage.

In fact I seriously question the motivation of someone like Stephen Menendian who is on a team when they argue against collusion since they are in fact helping their self-interests by safeguarding an environment which is conducive to teams having a monopoly on collusion. People who are on teams stand the most to lose if collusion became accepted practice. The type of enforcement that exists now gives teams a monopoly on the advantage of collusion. Either the enforcement needs to get ramped up and effectively eradicate team collusion or collusion should be allowed for everybody.

I would personally be in favor of a totally no collusion environment if it could actually be a totally no collusion environment. But lets be real here. There is lots of collusion going around by teams. And the "no collusion" rule effectively gives them a monopoly on it.


Lets say I am in the finals with Landstill and my opponent is ichorid and that player got there by going into collusion with a combo deck player on his team who agreed to split the prize once they saw my deck advance to the finals and knowing that Landstill has a terrible ichorid matchup. Their collusion means that suddenly my chances for winning the final goes from 60% to an abysmal 15%.

This happens anyway.  I know that on the 2 teams I've been on AND the 1 I'm currently working with, we would all do this to you.   That's part of being on a team.  If I'm playing TPS and my opponent is playing Elves (an even worse matchup for Landstill than Dredge), then of course I'd be like "Take it down!" and concede to him.  It's part of team play.

Thank you Soly for letting the cat completely out of the bag.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 02:39:11 am by credmond » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2009, 03:18:06 am »

It's not just part of "team play", it's also just knowing how the swiss points etc work.  Knowing when to ID against a total stranger, versus ID'ing with a "teammate" round 1 or 2.

It's the offering of a reward to get a concession "ie: Conceed to me and I give you x dollars or a draft set of Zendikar or two".

On the issue of this being moved to Advanced forum, any TMD'r can apply for full user status.  I did.


There is a debate to be had, but I don't see a way of stopping ID's or Concessions without mandating that all games be played out.

Credmond and myself have seen how ID's and Concessions get teams ahead, benefiting both Team LSV/FOB/Webster and also Team Vacaville in our local meta.  But I would not consider our cases "Collusion".  Then again, outside of outright birbery/force, I don't have a clear idea of what the collusion threshhold is.

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« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2009, 06:45:19 am »

This whole thing sounds like betting on a boxing match and paying the fighter to throw the match.

if mtg were a spectator sport w active gambling community, that would be an issue. as is, collusion is self contained to the paid entrants of the tourney

You've missed my point, my example was about that the match was rigged. Instead of letting the match play out as it would have, you have paid for the win/loss thus gaining you advancement and accolates approprate for those who worked for it, without actually doing.  For someone would try bribe their way to the top is outragious, While not officially deemed cheating, it has moral ramifcations of just plain BS and eviscerates the spirit of fair play in its wake.
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« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2009, 03:42:38 pm »

it is very unlikely to be cost effective to pay for wins outside of finals or last round of swiss, when the most collusion happens anyway.
its more likely to be strategically beneficial to split and scoop a favorable matchup to arrange better finals match. however paying TO WIN sheerly for glory, is a losing venture.
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« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2009, 01:14:25 am »

it is very unlikely to be cost effective to pay for wins outside of finals or last round of swiss, when the most collusion happens anyway.
its more likely to be strategically beneficial to split and scoop a favorable matchup to arrange better finals match. however paying TO WIN sheerly for glory, is a losing venture.

its the same no matter where it takes place, as for how you like to slice it, color it it's still the same the match is rigged. i was offered 50 for my 2nd match on a grand prix qualifier
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 01:19:02 am by waffles » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2009, 05:45:47 pm »

you are certainly entitled to ignore my logic and assert your own opinion.
have a nice day
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« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2009, 01:26:43 am »

Hey vroman, congratulations on your wins with Iona Oath.  Would you mind sharing what you feel the biggest threats to the deck are?  ie: what to look out for in each matchup?

Again, thanks and keep up the good work.
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