Leyline/Helm combo - Input needed

[Juzam_Jim]

Hello everyone.

I've been toying around with a list using the Leyline/Helm combo for a while now, and I'd like some input. I'm aware that it might not be as competative as Vault/Key combo, but I've made up my mind to build a deck using another win condition, and this one seems pretty fun and and has some nice synergies.

I've come up with two builds so far, one using Confidant and one without. I've been looking quite a bit at the possibility to use Ill-Gotten Gains as a "mini" Will and it also works well with Leyline.


Build 1: Without Confidant

// Spells  
1   Ancestral Recall    
1   Brainstorm    
4   Dark Ritual    
1   Demonic Consultation    
1   Demonic Tutor      
4   Duress      
1   Echoing Truth    
1   Hurkyl's Recall      
3   Ill-Gotten Gains      
1   Merchant Scroll      
1   Mystical Tutor    
3   Night's Whisper    
2   Tendrils of Agony    
3   Thoughtseize      
1   Time Walk      
1   Tinker      
1   Vampiric Tutor    
1   Yawgmoth's Will      

// Enchantments  
4   Leyline of the Void    
1   Necropotence      

// Artifacts  
1   Black Lotus    
1   Helm of Obedience    
1   Lion's Eye Diamond      
1   Lotus Petal      
1   Mana Crypt    
1   Memory Jar  
1   Mox Jet      
1   Mox Sapphire    
1   Sol Ring      

// Lands  
2   Ancient Tomb    
3   Bloodstained Mire    
3   Polluted Delta      
3   Swamp    
4   Underground Sea  


Build 2: With Confidant

// Creatures  
4   Dark Confidant    

// Spells  
1   Ancestral Recall    
4   Dark Ritual    
1   Demonic Consultation    
1   Demonic Tutor      
4   Duress    
1   Echoing Truth    
1   Hurkyl's Recall    
1   Ill-Gotten Gains    
1   Merchant Scroll    
1   Mystical Tutor    
3   Night's Whisper    
1   Tendrils of Agony      
4   Thoughtseize    
1   Time Walk      
1   Tinker  
1   Vampiric Tutor      
1   Yawgmoth's Will    

// Enchantments  
4   Leyline of the Void      
1   Necropotence    

// Artifacts  
1   Black Lotus    
1   Helm of Obedience      
1   Lotus Petal     
1   Mana Crypt      
1   Mox Jet    
1   Mox Sapphire    
1   Sol Ring      

// Lands  
1   Ancient Tomb      
3   Bloodstained Mire      
3   Polluted Delta      
1   Strip Mine      
3   Swamp     
4   Underground Sea    
1   Wasteland      
  

I'd really like to hear some input on how to improve the builds or some general criticism - would it ever be competitive? I'm really thinking about bringing something similar to a tournament at some point, so I'd like to get some feedback

[Juggernaut GO]

i ran it as a sideboard strategy in stax this weekend, it only worked against an ichorid player, where leyline was pretty much the winning card regardless.

[tito del monte]

I would love to understand why this combo doesn't see more play - or why it's not part of a top deck. Obviously, I understand how powerful Vault/Key is (and easy to assemble), but surely a two card combo, half of which can be un-counterably put into play from the off is as good? Helm may be more to activate (5 colourless) than Vault/Key (3 colourless), but that difference doesn't seem decisive on paper. Both combos are equally vulnerable to Null Rod.. am I missing something?

I did once try to cobble together a Meandeck Tendrils-inspired list with Spoils of the Vault that was really rubbish, but maybe a better deck-builder out there might make it work.

The other option I thought might be good would be a Sharuum Oath list - which might actually be improved by the printing of Spell Pierce..

Anyway, happy testing - look forward to seeing if you have any joy with the Ill-Gotten Gains approach.

[BruiZar]

What I like about Leyline + Helm is that tinker wins the game on the turn it is played whereas tinker only gets half the combo in vault key. Besides that, opening with leyline is relevant against most decks. It nullifies Welders, dredge and crucible of worlds (strip lock). It makes Tarmogoyf grow less fast. It nullifies Yawgmoth's Will. Life from the Loam and regrowth become useless. It also impacts Timetwister and Bloodghast. Voltaic Key has some uses outside of Time Vault. namely untapping Mana Vault and Sensei's Divining Top, but other than that, it is mostly useless.

[Troy_Costisick]

It doesn't see more play because there's just not the right shell for it yet.  Vault-Key takes up less room in UB decks.  Gob-Lines can't really run Tinker.  It could serve as a transoformational SB for Dragon Combo or Oath, but there's already better options IMO.  The combo is still looking for the right Archetype IMO.

Peace,

-Troy

[Juzam_Jim]

I don't undestand why it doesn't see any more play myself. The fact that Leyline comes in for free some of the times and really messes with many strategies is a great bonus. The drawback, of course, is that without Leyline for free, the combo costs 7 .

Does anyone have any input on the lists posted?

[LSD25]

maybe serum powder if the leyline is a must (which i think it is, given the above post... 7BB is horrible)... also demonic consultation with only 1 helm could be all bad.

[waffles]

I'd really like to hear some input on how to improve the builds or some general criticism - would it ever be competitive? I'm really thinking about bringing something similar to a tournament at some point, so I'd like to get some feedback

i would eather power it with black or green. black has lake of the dead, ritual effects, caball coffers. green has elves, and channel or you could use the tezz shell for acadamy. but thats a bit weak to rely on that one land. thats all i really have.  you just need to generate copious amounts of mana, ill think up something.

[Fraggle]

First off.  I haven't played magic competitively since the late 1990's, but I do enjoy of dreaming up decks.  Just take what I have to say for what it is worth

The combo seems fun and strong.  I'd focus less on trying to play Leyline for free opening hand, and more on trying to trick it into play.

Your already playing black so you have easy access to Carrion Feeder, so I'd tinker with dropping blue and going for white to pick up Academy Rector, and Enlightened Tutor.

If you do that you have synergy with restricted / quality enchantments that you can call up when you need it.

I'm thinking:

Necropotence + Chains of Mephistopheles
Necropoence + Solitary Confinement
Yawgmoths Bargin - Chains
Moat

The list goes on.

White also has poor mans time walks with Abeyance, and Orim's Chant

Now I know in Vintage no one cares about life, but with Neco, and Dark Confidant it may become an issue.  If so White is the best color to have on your side.

I wouldn't be ashamed to try an Ivory Tower  / Spell Book (Library of Lang) in my deck because it seems like it would be pretty strong with Neco and confidant (pay life to get cards / cards get you life)

Don't get me wrong, it would require a good deal of testing, but I don't see why that wouldn't work with a healty dose of discard, and finding slots for Sadistic Sacrament amongst it.

Does everyone else think I'm crazy?

[Fraggle]

First off.  I haven't played magic competitively since the late 1990's, but I do enjoy of dreaming up decks.  Just take what I have to say for what it is worth

The combo seems fun and strong.  I'd focus less on trying to play Leyline for free opening hand, and more on trying to trick it into play.

Your already playing black so you have easy access to Carrion Feeder, so I'd tinker with dropping blue and going for white to pick up Academy Rector, and Enlightened Tutor.

If you do that you have synergy with restricted / quality enchantments that you can call up when you need it.

I'm thinking:

Necropotence + Chains of Mephistopheles
Necropoence + Solitary Confinement
Yawgmoths Bargin - Chains
Moat

The list goes on.

White also has poor mans time walks with Abeyance, and Orim's Chant

Now I know in Vintage no one cares about life, but with Neco, and Dark Confidant it may become an issue.  If so White is the best color to have on your side.

I wouldn't be ashamed to try an Ivory Tower  / Spell Book (Library of Lang) in my deck because it seems like it would be pretty strong with Neco and confidant (pay life to get cards / cards get you life)

Don't get me wrong, it would require a good deal of testing, but I don't see why that wouldn't work with a healty dose of discard, and finding slots for Sadistic Sacrament amongst it.

Does everyone else think I'm crazy?

I just remembered Cabal Therapy + Academy Rector too.

[waffles]

White also has poor mans time walks with Abeyance, and Orim's Chant

slience too

[bisamratte]

A friend of mine played Leyline/Helm half a year ago. First in a Staxshell, later in a U/B Cotrolshell. With Stax you do not need any Combokill (making Relic a better Graveyardkiller postboard) and with Control you have cheaper Combos available (Vault/Key, Painter/Stone). The only argument to play Helmcombo over another is that Leyline hates some decks an that it's sometimes for free and that you have an autowin to Ichorid. But: Let's say you are playing against Stax an do not have Leyline in your opening hand. In this case it's nearly impossible to set up a combokill. Also Leyline is a dead card if you draw it with one already on the battlefield. You cannot pitch it into Force, your cannot discard it for Thirst, you take 4 Damage with Confi. In Tezz, you just have 2-3 Comboparts in your deck, never drawing too much of them. In Painter you have 2 Stones, never drawing more than 1 and 3 Painters you can throw into a Thirst or pitch into Force.
The Argument with the graveyardhate... Well, we've got Ravenous Trap. Who does still need Leyline? Against Ichorid the Trap is better and against every other deck I would not board Leyline due to having more effectiv cards in a good SB.

[waffles]

A friend of mine played Leyline/Helm half a year ago. First in a Staxshell, later in a U/B Cotrolshell. With Stax you do not need any Combokill (making Relic a better Graveyardkiller postboard) and with Control you have cheaper Combos available (Vault/Key, Painter/Stone). The only argument to play Helmcombo over another is that Leyline hates some decks an that it's sometimes for free and that you have an autowin to Ichorid. But: Let's say you are playing against Stax an do not have Leyline in your opening hand. In this case it's nearly impossible to set up a combokill. Also Leyline is a dead card if you draw it with one already on the battlefield. You cannot pitch it into Force, your cannot discard it for Thirst, you take 4 Damage with Confi. In Tezz, you just have 2-3 Comboparts in your deck, never drawing too much of them. In Painter you have 2 Stones, never drawing more than 1 and 3 Painters you can throw into a Thirst or pitch into Force.
The Argument with the graveyardhate... Well, we've got Ravenous Trap. Who does still need Leyline? Against Ichorid the Trap is better and against every other deck I would not board Leyline due to having more effectiv cards in a good SB.

leyline is free on the 1st turn, baring a force its around to stay. the trap has a conditon and most likely will get counted. planar void is a cheap alternitive. i say this vs. the BUG ichorid decks out there.

[bisamratte]

I think the Ichoridplayer has more solutions for Leyline than counters for Trap. If you can counter too, every option is as good as the other. Also, your opponent does not know if there is a Trap in your hand or not. And you must not run Trap as a 4of. That's all why I think Trap is better and there is no use for Leyline anymore. Another reason not to play Helmcombo btw

[waffles]

I think the Ichoridplayer has more solutions for Leyline than counters for Trap. If you can counter too, every option is as good as the other. Also, your opponent does not know if there is a Trap in your hand or not. And you must not run Trap as a 4of. That's all why I think Trap is better and there is no use for Leyline anymore. Another reason not to play Helmcombo btw

id roll both of them, call it overprepared or just paranoia eather way it would serve the same cause.

[Cavius The Great]

I would love to understand why this combo doesn't see more play - or why it's not part of a top deck.

Becuase the decks that Leyline of the Void is good against wins regardless of playing Helm of Obedience?

[Mr. Scragglesworthington]

My offhand opinion is that the requirement to play with 4 Leylines, assuming you're trying to T0 it into play, makes for too many dead draws.

Maybe this combo could work in a Stax deck that uses Bazaar to filter draws?