RUG Fish

[gamegeek2]

--- Rough Draft ---
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Null Rod
4 Fire//Ice
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

I've been thinking that Ancient Grudge would be an excellent solution to the Vault decks, as well as giving us a good solution to Stax. Running red also gives this deck access to Pyroclasm/Firespout for mirrors, and maindeck Fire//Ice is an excellent solution to both Confidant and Fish. I considered Gorilla Shaman, but he's much less effective at fighting Vault/Key than Grudge, and dies to Darkblast and Fire//Ice (which is also the reason I cut Vendilion Clique for Predator - that may have been a mistake).

I'm not sure if adding basics is correct - it seems like a decent sideboard plan against something like Stax, where you need to establish your mana on a foundation of basic lands.

--- Sideboard Considerations ---
1 Ancient Grudge (Definite)
Firespout/Pyroclasm (Definite)
Hurkyl's Recall
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Pyroblast/REB
1 Forest
1 Mountain

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

This seems inferior to BUG.  How is Red better than Black, when you can run Oxidize/Krosan Grip instead of Grudge, and tutors+Darkblast instead of Fire/Ice?  Black and Green not only give you both artifact and creature removal, but Black also gives you access to graveyard hate.  Plus Dark Confidant is insane.  7 creatures is way too few.  The only possible reason I can see to run Red is Grim Lavamancer, and you aren't even running him.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The only possible reason I can see to run Red is Grim Lavamancer, and you aren't even running him.

Vandal owns Stax.  And there's always Magus of the Moon or Gorilla Shaman for mana denial.  And Pyrostatic Pillar rapes Ad Nauseam.

[CowWithHat]

I think the points Gandalf makes for why your build should be Black instead of red is valid.  Darkblast is not considerably less powerful then fire/ice in many matchups (in fact it is often far more powerful).  K grip is arguable better for you then grudge main because it hits vault unconditionally against tez and dodges 2 chalices against stax.  The fact that your deck plays no card advantage engine is another knock against it in this comparison.  If I were to implement these colors into fish I would start with the cards that AmbivalentDuck is talking about because they do something black can't do.

The mana denial of Gorrila shaman and magus teamed up with Tarmogoyf is one of the main strengths of the Christmas beats style decks. I think taking those three cards and incorporating them into a fish shell could make a hybrid deck that doesn't sacrifice very much of beats' speed but adds some of magics best disruption in the form of force and stifle.

[gamegeek2]

New List

// Lands
    3  Scalding Tarn
    3  Tropical Island
    3  Volcanic Island
    1 [BD] Island
    3  Misty Rainforest
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Forest

// Creatures
    4  Tarmogoyf
    3  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    4  Magus of the Moon

// Spells
    4  Stifle
    4  Force of Will
    3  Spell Pierce
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Daze
    3  Ancient Grudge
    3  Fire/Ice
    1  Time Walk
    4  Null Rod
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus

The problem I've had with Grip is that it's relatively slow, and is far less effective at destroying artifact mana. Grudge is faster, and is used twice, so the opponent must have two counterspells to effectively stop it.

Also, while I recognize the power of black, I'm seeing if there's an alternative that can exploit the power of red, which has excellent disruption like black, and while there may be no Edict or Confidant, there is very powerful mana denial, and cheap sweepers out of the sideboard.

[SadDubs]

I like where your new list is headed. You definately need an answer to inkwell leviathon, I like 2 jruky'ls recall and one merchant scroll. Dont you ever find 3x grudge, 3x gorilla shaman, and 4x rod is alittle overkill in artifact hate? I might take out the grudges for tinker hate.

[dawgie]

Don't you kill yourself with all of those non-basics with Null Rod and Magus of the moon in the same deck?

[gamegeek2]

There's 1 Island, 1 Forest, and multiple ways to find them, as well as 2 relevant moxen. I undesrtand your concern, though.

[Harlequin]

Along those lines, I would drop the wasteland/strip.  Just plan on playing moons and run 4 Rainforest + 1-2 more of each of those basics.

The other problem is that you don't really have any solid answers to Sphinx of the Steelwind.  RG beats is often already at the bottom of that barrel with Pro-Red-Green.  Splashing another color into RG should naturally give you -something- to answer Steelwind.  Any thoughts to running a bounce spell to answer sphinx?  Grudge doesn't currently effect ANY tinkerbots, and Tezz is going to immediatly go to Plan-B against any deck sporting Null Rod anyway.

[BruiZar]

The problem I've had with Grip is that it's relatively slow, and is far less effective at destroying artifact mana. Grudge is faster, and is used twice, so the opponent must have two counterspells to effectively stop it.

With Null Rod out, it doesn't really matter if you kill their moxen or not. I'd keep Shamans and Null Rods and move grudge to the board for the workshop matchup.

The deck needs  Snapback. I don't like the collateral damage from Magus of the Moon, which is why I would play with Elvish Spirit Guide. It will power out a Tarmogoyf under your own soft lock, it allows more first turn Null Rods. You can cast all sorts of spells with it too like Time Walk, Hardcast Daze and more first turn Magus of the Moons.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since this thread is in the improvement forum already, thoughts on Burning-Tree Shaman? (1RG, 3/4, whenever a non-mana activated ability is played one damage its controller.)

Basically, two damage a turn to Tez even with Tez-Key or Vault-Key up.  The seems substantial since getting Vault-Key up requires burning through most of your draw/search in the early game, and in the late game even 4-6 damage would be a big deal.  This also substantially punishes Top and Confidant.

[Mr. Scragglesworthington]

This guy named Nate went undefeated in the swiss of Xtreme Game's Vintage tourney last week, using a R/G beats deck that ran Magus + wasteland...  and Pillage and Great Sable Stag.

I am led to believe the Stag was one of the keys to his deck's high performance.  Uncounterability combined with massive mana disruption made it very formidable, apparently.

[grungyboy]

This guy named Nate went undefeated in the swiss of Xtreme Game's Vintage tourney last week, using a R/G beats deck that ran Magus + wasteland...  and Pillage and Great Sable Stag.

do you happen to have the Nate's decklist? this sounds VERY interesting for me

[Mr. Scragglesworthington]

This guy named Nate went undefeated in the swiss of Xtreme Game's Vintage tourney last week, using a R/G beats deck that ran Magus + wasteland...  and Pillage and Great Sable Stag.

do you happen to have the Nate's decklist? this sounds VERY interesting for me

No, I don't unfortunately.

You could try asking Eric at Xtreme games in the announcement post.

[gamegeek2]

Moving Grudge to the sideboard does seem like a sound plan. Gorilla Shaman has proved quite effective, he's not going anywhere.

Along those lines, I would drop the wasteland/strip.  Just plan on playing moons and run 4 Rainforest + 1-2 more of each of those basics.

Wasteland/Strip is a cornerstone of Fish decks, and excellent teamed up with stifle.

ESG is also something I'll be looking into...

[theLastGnu]

I think the deck both wants more creatures and lacks any significant form of card advantage in its current form. SSS answers both of these questions and is pretty insane regardless. I'd definitely try to work it into the list; here's something I've been playing around with.

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    2 Vendilion Clique
    3 Gorilla Shaman

// Spells
    3 Null Rod
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Mana Leak
    3 Spell Pierce
    1 Fire/Ice
    1 Time Walk
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    4 Stifle
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus

[Mr. Scragglesworthington]

This guy named Nate went undefeated in the swiss of Xtreme Game's Vintage tourney last week, using a R/G beats deck that ran Magus + wasteland...  and Pillage and Great Sable Stag.

do you happen to have the Nate's decklist? this sounds VERY interesting for me

No, I don't unfortunately.

You could try asking Eric at Xtreme games in the announcement post.

The list is up in the tournament forums now:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?board=43.0

[SadDubs]

I think the deck both wants more creatures and lacks any significant form of card advantage in its current form. SSS answers both of these questions and is pretty insane regardless. I'd definitely try to work it into the list; here's something I've been playing around with.

// Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    2 Vendilion Clique
    3 Gorilla Shaman

// Spells
    3 Null Rod
    4 Force of Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Mana Leak
    3 Spell Pierce
    1 Fire/Ice
    1 Time Walk
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    4 Stifle
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus

I don't like spell stutter sprite in vintage right now. Even with ninja of deep hours and a couple more vendilion cliques/cloud of faeries, the sprite is just too narrow to be a constantly relevant spell. Its 0 for 1 isn't even that great; who cares about a flying 1/1?

[SadDubs]

here's a rug fish list that made top 8 in tokyo.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1142

[RecklessEmbermage]

here's a rug fish list that made top 8 in tokyo.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1142

If you take a look at the runners-up in this tournament, they play seemingly high-powered decks, but not necessarily very well-built ones. They atleast differ from mainstream builds of their various archetypes (nr2: Ad nauseam with 4 ad nauseam, 3 tendrils and kaervek's torch, nr3: Oath with 2 eternal witness and 1 progenitus, nr4: ichorid with 4 street wraith and 4 serum powder, nr5: 2 selkies with no pump-effects, nr6: Psychatog with negators main and no time vault, nr7: fairly standard tezzeret, but 2 lightning bolts main, nr8: shop aggro with 3 juggernaut, 2 karn, 3 trike and 4 su-chi).

There may be some elements to adopt from these decks, but on average, they seem less than optimal. Of course, metagames differ and I'm not an expert vintage deckbuilder by any stretch of the imagination.