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Kotoso
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 07:51:08 am » |
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=165072&highlight=silex+kotosoThere is a bit of a development there on a deck with Wheel of Sun & Moon and Energy Field. No Samurai, but the combo finish uses Wheel of Sun & Moon as well. I dont think it is very viable. I have updated a list since then, I can post when I get home. Notice it is in the casual section of the forum.
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waffles
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 08:13:07 am » |
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this combo isnt really something that should be a center peice to a deck but a way to stave off undue destruction on your part by aggro decks, sligh, and mill. The samurai is just for redunancy, though not as powerful as the wheel it would help out holding out for a few turns. wanted to make a vintage list as i have stacks of causal decks. |
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Jori
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 02:30:28 pm » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
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waffles
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 05:01:29 pm » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
There are bunch of answers to this question, whatever bounce he/she may have you should have an answer to it. In white there is a few answers, if you're looking to direcly prevent the bounce then Vigilant Martyr, or rebuff the wicked to counter. Greater auramancy for shroud. For blue the use of misdirection or some other switch target spell would stop the bounce or use of mana maze or arcane lab would hamper both decks tps more than anything. i could go on but you have the idea. |
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 05:29:41 pm by waffles »
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Lurker101
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 06:14:58 pm » |
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What about using both Mindbreak Trap and Archive Trap(Against decks using YawgWin). That way you have a 0 cost mill card and a 0 cost answer to combo both on blue so you can keep Energy Field. Also play Planar Void. So we have a BU deck that mills and can win game 1 against Dredge (maybe). I don't know how viable this decklist is but here goes:
Lands/Mana:
I suggest you make your own manabase.
Other:
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Archive Trap
3 Planar Void
3 Energy Field
4 FoW
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
2 Pithing Needle
4 Night's Whisper
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Vampiric/Demonic/Mystical
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Imperial (?)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 The tutor that searches for traps
?Some Bounce
?????
Sideboard:
The trap that removes graveyards
Sorry, I'm kind of drunk but I'm still trying to help out.
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waffles
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 10:38:53 pm » |
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What about using both Mindbreak Trap and Archive Trap(Against decks using YawgWin). That way you have a 0 cost mill card and a 0 cost answer to combo both on blue so you can keep Energy Field. Also play Planar Void. So we have a BU deck that mills and can win game 1 against Dredge (maybe). I don't know how viable this decklist is but here goes:
Lands/Mana:
I suggest you make your own manabase.
Other:
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Archive Trap
3 Planar Void
3 Energy Field
4 FoW
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Tinker
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Memory Jar
2 Pithing Needle
4 Night's Whisper
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Vampiric/Demonic/Mystical
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Imperial (?)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 The tutor that searches for traps
?Some Bounce
?????
Sideboard:
The trap that removes graveyards
Sorry, I'm kind of drunk but I'm still trying to help out.
the field will disapear when a card hits the graveyard so doesnt matter what cost it is, planar void wont work because it isnt a replacement effect they still hit the graveyard before leaving. Yawgmoth's Agenda is the only card in black that does this so the wheel is crucial to this, but you did give me some ideas. |
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 11:13:47 pm by waffles »
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waffles
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 05:33:19 am » |
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The sideboard is up in the air, but i think it will be effective for a mill deck. Feel free to critique this decklist
Lands
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
White
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Vigilant Martyr
Artifacts
2 Null Rod
4 Mesmeric Orb
Blue
4 Energy Field
4 Willbender
4 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 ARecall
SB: 4 Mana Maze
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Jori
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 02:56:16 pm » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
There are bunch of answers to this question, whatever bounce he/she may have you should have an answer to it. In white there is a few answers, if you're looking to direcly prevent the bounce then Vigilant Martyr, or rebuff the wicked to counter. Greater auramancy for shroud. For blue the use of misdirection or some other switch target spell would stop the bounce or use of mana maze or arcane lab would hamper both decks tps more than anything. i could go on but you have the idea. Yes, BUT its Tezz has time vault/key out, they are going to win. They will have more counters than you can deal with eventually. And what are you going to do against TPS? They dont deal damage, you lose life. Therefore, you die no matter what you do. A single misdirection wont win you the game, and chances are they have duressed your hand to hell already. |
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waffles
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 07:23:36 pm » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
There are bunch of answers to this question, whatever bounce he/she may have you should have an answer to it. In white there is a few answers, if you're looking to direcly prevent the bounce then Vigilant Martyr, or rebuff the wicked to counter. Greater auramancy for shroud. For blue the use of misdirection or some other switch target spell would stop the bounce or use of mana maze or arcane lab would hamper both decks tps more than anything. i could go on but you have the idea. Yes, BUT its Tezz has time vault/key out, they are going to win. They will have more counters than you can deal with eventually. And what are you going to do against TPS? They dont deal damage, you lose life. Therefore, you die no matter what you do. A single misdirection wont win you the game, and chances are they have duressed your hand to hell already. Tps loses to Arcane Laboratory/Rule of law and Mana Maze due to its reliance on casting more than one spell to power tendrils see Mana Maze: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23009Arcane Laboratory http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5764Rule of Law http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136291a chalice would hamper tps enough so would null rod. i get that i would have to figure out a less clunky way to handle tezz |
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Jori
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2009, 08:25:17 pm » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
There are bunch of answers to this question, whatever bounce he/she may have you should have an answer to it. In white there is a few answers, if you're looking to direcly prevent the bounce then Vigilant Martyr, or rebuff the wicked to counter. Greater auramancy for shroud. For blue the use of misdirection or some other switch target spell would stop the bounce or use of mana maze or arcane lab would hamper both decks tps more than anything. i could go on but you have the idea. Yes, BUT its Tezz has time vault/key out, they are going to win. They will have more counters than you can deal with eventually. And what are you going to do against TPS? They dont deal damage, you lose life. Therefore, you die no matter what you do. A single misdirection wont win you the game, and chances are they have duressed your hand to hell already. Tps loses to Arcane Laboratory/Rule of law and Mana Maze due to its reliance on casting more than one spell to power tendrils see Mana Maze: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23009Arcane Laboratory http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5764Rule of Law http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136291a chalice would hamper tps enough so would null rod. i get that i would have to figure out a less clunky way to handle tezz Chances are, you need to get that mana maze/rule of law down turn 1, or else they will just duress it out of your hand.. Also, if you set your chalice to 1, it takes out a bit of your own deck as well, not to mention the only Im just not convinced this deck can disrupt the tops decks enough to make a difference. Also, this deck has only 1 way to turn 1 chalice for 1. That is mishra's workshop, which means you essentially set yourself back a turn in casting any of your combo, meanwhile TPS/Tezz may be running counterspells beyond just FoW (like Mana Drain).. Also, against fish, I see this deck pulling an epic fail of sorts. With quasali's running around MD, and more aggro creatures like tarmogoyf, they can easily keep your combo under control with the limited amount of control you have. #1, you have no creature removal and rely on the combo, #2 that combo can be dealt with easier than you think.. #3 I think this deck also just loses to ichorid (considering ichorid says bazaar, go, EOT bazaar, upkeep bazaar, dredge, dredge, dredge, draw, dredge.. win. |
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waffles
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 02:48:05 am » |
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What does this deck do against Tezzeret or TPS? Tezz may eventually dig a bounce spell up, and TPS makes you lose life.
There are bunch of answers to this question, whatever bounce he/she may have you should have an answer to it. In white there is a few answers, if you're looking to direcly prevent the bounce then Vigilant Martyr, or rebuff the wicked to counter. Greater auramancy for shroud. For blue the use of misdirection or some other switch target spell would stop the bounce or use of mana maze or arcane lab would hamper both decks tps more than anything. i could go on but you have the idea. Yes, BUT its Tezz has time vault/key out, they are going to win. They will have more counters than you can deal with eventually. And what are you going to do against TPS? They dont deal damage, you lose life. Therefore, you die no matter what you do. A single misdirection wont win you the game, and chances are they have duressed your hand to hell already. Tps loses to Arcane Laboratory/Rule of law and Mana Maze due to its reliance on casting more than one spell to power tendrils see Mana Maze: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23009Arcane Laboratory http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5764Rule of Law http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136291a chalice would hamper tps enough so would null rod. i get that i would have to figure out a less clunky way to handle tezz Chances are, you need to get that mana maze/rule of law down turn 1, or else they will just duress it out of your hand.. Also, if you set your chalice to 1, it takes out a bit of your own deck as well, not to mention the only Im just not convinced this deck can disrupt the tops decks enough to make a difference. Also, this deck has only 1 way to turn 1 chalice for 1. That is mishra's workshop, which means you essentially set yourself back a turn in casting any of your combo, meanwhile TPS/Tezz may be running counterspells beyond just FoW (like Mana Drain).. Also, against fish, I see this deck pulling an epic fail of sorts. With quasali's running around MD, and more aggro creatures like tarmogoyf, they can easily keep your combo under control with the limited amount of control you have. #1, you have no creature removal and rely on the combo, #2 that combo can be dealt with easier than you think.. #3 I think this deck also just loses to ichorid (considering ichorid says bazaar, go, EOT bazaar, upkeep bazaar, dredge, dredge, dredge, draw, dredge.. win. You have shown me the holes in it, so then i ask, what would you do to answer these threats? |
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« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 04:15:24 am by waffles »
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Jori
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 07:49:47 am » |
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You have shown me the holes in it, so then i ask, what would you do to answer these threats? Not try to play this deck competatively? You play a combo that, while it will save you for awhile, wont save you for forever. For decks that run vault/key they will just eventually win, fish wont have too much of a problem more than likely (which is honestly the "best" matchup for you, considering your combo can do something there..). If you want to play mill, do a take on painters grind; its about the closest thing to competative mill that you will find. What im saying is, the deck just isnt playable without complete revision. (also your only running 18 mana sources in your list, which is about 4 short of being able to drop land with any consistancy  ). All in all, nice pet deck, but if you take it to a major tourney... Well then you will probably just suffer the fate most other jank decks face. |
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waffles
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 09:53:54 am » |
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You have shown me the holes in it, so then i ask, what would you do to answer these threats? Not try to play this deck competitively? You play a combo that, while it will save you for awhile, wont save you for forever. For decks that run vault/key they will just eventually win, fish wont have too much of a problem more than likely (which is honestly the "best" matchup for you, considering your combo can do something there..). If you want to play mill, do a take on painters grind; its about the closest thing to competative mill that you will find. What im saying is, the deck just isnt playable without complete revision. (also your only running 18 mana sources in your list, which is about 4 short of being able to drop land with any consistancy ). All in all, nice pet deck, but if you take it to a major tourney... Well then you will probably just suffer the fate most other jank decks face. Ahh, could we come up with something that isn't the top tier? I only play at a local unsanctioned tourney, but i still have to compete vs. the top 8. As for the combo, it was only meant to save me for a bit. But you insinuate that the deck has potential to become competitive. to be honest I'm only really good a building causal decks, building aggro decks seems to be my bane. I tend to sway towards control/prison decks. |
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 03:34:04 pm » |
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Though samurai provides a nice redundant effect, it seems more intuitive to make this creature-less.
You already have tutors to set-up an artifact/enchantment win, and can use any room left on draw, countermagic and other forms of protection. That seems easier and more effective than a dilluted beatdown-plan.
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waffles
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2009, 03:48:06 pm » |
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Though samurai provides a nice redundant effect, it seems more intuitive to make this creature-less.
You already have tutors to set-up an artifact/enchantment win, and can use any room left on draw, countermagic and other forms of protection. That seems easier and more effective than a dilluted beatdown-plan.
yes but it also affects them, so at worst its a way to eat ichorid and anything else that was in play if it would go to the graveyard. the martyr and willbender are defense to bounce, i wasnt going for a beat down direction. i see problems with aggro decks before i get this out, so do you think that the rest of my white should be swords/path,wrath, Mageta the Lion? |
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2009, 05:22:30 pm » |
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Though samurai provides a nice redundant effect, it seems more intuitive to make this creature-less.
You already have tutors to set-up an artifact/enchantment win, and can use any room left on draw, countermagic and other forms of protection. That seems easier and more effective than a dilluted beatdown-plan.
yes but it also affects them, so at worst its a way to eat ichorid and anything else that was in play if it would go to the graveyard. the martyr and willbender are defense to bounce, i wasnt going for a beat down direction. i see problems with aggro decks before i get this out, so do you think that the rest of my white should be swords/path,wrath, Mageta the Lion? Well, once again, the most intuitive plan against aggro seems to be balance, energy fields and cards to draw/tutor and protect these. I'd be more worried about building a deck that is robust enough to withstand counters and duresses and that could either stop or race timevault. What you've got at the moment looks a tad slow and disruptable. What's worse is that you do try and win with creatures, which is somewhat hard when anything you play is blocked by a goyf or cat or whatever dude the opponent might be playing. You either dillute the deck further with creature-removal or fliers and whatnot or you find a more synergistic win-con, as far as I see it. |
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waffles
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 07:19:17 pm » |
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Though samurai provides a nice redundant effect, it seems more intuitive to make this creature-less.
You already have tutors to set-up an artifact/enchantment win, and can use any room left on draw, countermagic and other forms of protection. That seems easier and more effective than a dilluted beatdown-plan.
yes but it also affects them, so at worst its a way to eat ichorid and anything else that was in play if it would go to the graveyard. the martyr and willbender are defense to bounce, i wasnt going for a beat down direction. i see problems with aggro decks before i get this out, so do you think that the rest of my white should be swords/path,wrath, Mageta the Lion? Well, once again, the most intuitive plan against aggro seems to be balance, energy fields and cards to draw/tutor and protect these. I'd be more worried about building a deck that is robust enough to withstand counters and duresses and that could either stop or race timevault. What you've got at the moment looks a tad slow and disruptable. What's worse is that you do try and win with creatures, which is somewhat hard when anything you play is blocked by a goyf or cat or whatever dude the opponent might be playing. You either dillute the deck further with creature-removal or fliers and whatnot or you find a more synergistic win-con, as far as I see it. my win con is the Mesmeric Orb, they untap they mill, same for me but it allows me to cycle through my deck while the wheel is out. so maybe Mesmeric orb and orb of dreams or maybe sands of time+ Mesmeric orb? hrmm, but i guess that means i need to go back to the drawing board and focus more on that. |
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waffles
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 07:41:59 pm » |
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New decklist, taking account what you suggested, i dropped the creatures focused on getting it out. I was llooking at mana web, and sands of time, extract, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Reparations, Spiritual Focus as things that might help me achieve my goal.
Lands
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
White
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Academy Rector
3 Mana Tithe
1 Balance
Artifacts
2 Null Rod
4 Mesmeric Orb
3 pithing needle
Blue
4 Energy Field
4 Mana Drain
1 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Brainstorm
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 ARecall
1 Tinker
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« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:59:53 pm by waffles »
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 02:56:08 pm » |
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Academy rector can't find the 2nd half of field+wheel. That might not be a problem. You'll know after testing, I guess.
The deck can support force, and should run it.
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waffles
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 03:15:18 pm » |
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Academy rector can't find the 2nd half of field+wheel. That might not be a problem. You'll know after testing, I guess.
The deck can support force, and should run it.
i have tinker for that but getting the wheel+field out is priority one, the orb comes next. thinking of adding merchant scroll and fabricate for it |
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 04:42:18 pm » |
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Academy rector can't find the 2nd half of field+wheel. That might not be a problem. You'll know after testing, I guess.
The deck can support force, and should run it.
i have tinker for that but getting the wheel+field out is priority one, the orb comes next. thinking of adding merchant scroll and fabricate for it Eh.. If you have wheel in play, rector won't get you energy field and if you have energy field in play, it will be removed when rector dies. That doesn't have to be such a big issue, but it should be a part of your evaluation of the card. |
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waffles
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 07:39:40 pm » |
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Academy rector can't find the 2nd half of field+wheel. That might not be a problem. You'll know after testing, I guess.
The deck can support force, and should run it.
i have tinker for that but getting the wheel+field out is priority one, the orb comes next. thinking of adding merchant scroll and fabricate for it Eh.. If you have wheel in play, rector won't get you energy field and if you have energy field in play, it will be removed when rector dies. That doesn't have to be such a big issue, but it should be a part of your evaluation of the card. never been really that good at at a glance evaluation of cards in terms of usefulness to a deck. i only find that out if i play test it. but ill get some results later Update, after some research i found that it won't work in vintage, but might work in legacy. |
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« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 11:00:22 pm by waffles »
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