[Deck Discussion] G/W Beats

[Bibendum]

Most of the time when Goyf grows its still not going to outrace the Grunts plus the Grunt adds the disruptive factor, i think in a deck like this its a much more solid choice.

[scipio]

Why do you feel the third color is necessary?  I’m not arguing that Walk, Ancestral, etc are bad, just that I don’t think the splash benefits the deck that much.  The manabase, as consistent as it seems like it should be, is not.  Further, running Force necessitates running a large number of blue cards to feed to it.  The blue men you’d add to the deck to fuel it are really awful men, which is why I strongly dislike Noble Fish’s approach – most of the men don’t actually impact the game in any meaningful way.

I'm not sure it does need a 3rd color.  But blue does give you some additional disruptive creatures along with reasonable draw engines that have seen some recent success, albeit in mono-U builds. Adept boosted by Pridemage should get there or force trades most decks don't want to make.  The option to cast with any combination of U/W makes it easy to get into play.  I agree that trying to play force would bend the deck significantly, but having access to cheap 1st turn counters seems, on the surface, a reasonable way to extend the game to give you time to assemble the lock.  I suppose the real question would be - are there any major underperformers/disappointments in the deck?  If not, keep it a 2 colors.

Your point reminded me of another question I had.  You run the Horizon Canopy, but would Temple Garden be better since it's fetchable?  Is the draw option of Canopy ever relevant?

[Kowal]

I use the card draw part of Canopy more than I tap it for mana, actually.  I'm considering going to 4.

As for the blue stuff, most of the blue cards you HAVE to run to support force are significantly worse than cards you'd be cutting to replace.  Meddling Mage as an example is actually pretty terrible right now.  Not to mention you have to remove things like Choke, which is almost always an enormous bomb. 

[CowWithHat]

As for the blue stuff, most of the blue cards you HAVE to run to support force are significantly worse than cards you'd be cutting to replace.  Meddling Mage as an example is actually pretty terrible right now.  Not to mention you have to remove things like Choke, which is almost always an enormous bomb. 

Kowal have you considered going with maybe one Tropical Island or Tundra and just playing a couple of blue bombs.  One blue dual can give you upwards of 10 blue sources if you mess with the fetch counts and you shouldn't be too brokenhearted about choking off one land of your own (wasteland does that all the time).  Adding recall and time walk at the cost of some bad white or green cards seems pretty reasonable.  You don't have to play Force of Will just because you are playing blue, hell that card isn't even good (that's a joke for all you folks who read the fish strategy article so don't jump down my throat).

[honestabe]

I'm going to have to agree that grunt>Goyf right now.  I feel that they're meta choices.  If there were more fish and Stax (or aggro, but this deck is tuned for a New England meta), I'd have to give goyf the spot, but neither of these decks are too hot right now, making Grunt the best choise

[Stormanimagus]

Most of the time when Goyf grows its still not going to outrace the Grunts plus the Grunt adds the disruptive factor, i think in a deck like this its a much more solid choice.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. I think Goyf + FoW = Great. Goyf + Duress + Bob = Also really Great. Goyf + disruptive bears? = not so hot. If you are not running a way to stave off CA and bombs in the form of FoW or Duress I think you have less business running a Vanilla creature (albeit the best on in the game). This is why I'd say that Meandeck beats CAN support Goyf as can Noble Fish, but GW Beats really cannot and I actually think Kowal might be right on in going with GW strategies right now. They just seem really strong. As much as it pains me to say this I think Noble Fish has had its day in the sun and will need the metagame to change a bit before it can make a Strong comeback. If Tezzeret and Oath start become Top dog then perhaps Noble Fish can make an appearance again, but right now there are just too many good anti-fish Shop decks floating around (with 3-4 Tangle Wire + recursion) and Ichorid decks and even TPS decks to make Noble Fish a good choice. Noble Fish really thrives when it is:

a) playing against a field with a lot of islands that doesn't also win on turn 2.
b) Not seeing a lot of Ichorid and especially not Ichorid with FoW.
c) Not seeing a lot of Tangle Wires.

Right now the metagame is not positioned for decks that win through pure sweet CA (like what Selkie provides) unless those decks follow that Card Advantage up with a hard lock or and combo. There are just too many ways to weasel out of a tight spot against a resolved Selkie that is beating for 2 a turn. Too many turn-around top-decks and and entire strategies that ignore much the entire Noble Fish deck.

GW is solid right because it has a high HIGH disruption density and a pretty fast clock to boot. It is streamlined and that is what is winning tournaments right now.

-Storm

[Phele]

Most of the time when Goyf grows its still not going to outrace the Grunts plus the Grunt adds the disruptive factor, i think in a deck like this its a much more solid choice.

but right now there are just too many good anti-fish Shop decks floating around (with 3-4 Tangle Wire + recursion) and Ichorid decks and even TPS decks to make Noble Fish a good choice. ways to weasel out of a tight spot against a resolved Selkie that is beating for 2 a turn. Too many turn-around top-decks and and entire strategies that ignore much the entire Noble

Sounds like you made some bad experiences recently  

But seriously; I have never found any Fish deck that is better in beating any form of Workshop decks.

But now back on topic ...

[voltron00x]

If you advocate running Grunt over Goyf, I can't believe it isn't right to at least run 3.  If he's as good as you all say, why don't you want to increase your chance of drawing one?  Three seems like a fair concession to the idea that he's bad in multiples.

Further, I still believe that Goyf is a better card in the abstract, although your points on the metagame are all fair and well-stated. 

If the G/W version is honestly that bad at growing Goyf, I can't imagine you could make the same argument for Meandeck Beats, since Thoughtseize and Diabolic Edict are both likely to add +2/+2 immediately.  I say that realizing that this is a thread specifically to discuss G/W Beats.

What do you think makes G/W a better deck choice than G/W/b?

[Kowal]

Kowal have you considered going with maybe one Tropical Island or Tundra and just playing a couple of blue bombs. 

Actually yes.  It's something I haven't ruled out, and could easily find its way in to the deck.  However, the demand on multiple colored mana sources is high enough that I haven't felt the desire to actually do it yet.

If you advocate running Grunt over Goyf, I can't believe it isn't right to at least run 3.

I feel it is fine to run the two.  I like to see one, but it's not the end of the world if I don't.  I hate seeing more than one unless my opponent is Stax.

What do you think makes G/W a better deck choice than G/W/b?

It's a mixture of the fact that adding the third color hurts the mana more significantly than it seems on paper, and that lots of theoretically great options in black necessitate cutting cards in green and white that are as good or better.  Dark Confidant as an example is a stellar creature who clearly goes in to any build with black, however that doesn't mean I'll be happy to pick him up off a topdeck in most circumstances.  Another thing to consider is that the Stax matchup, as configured in my opening post in this thread, is the weakest matchup (well, non ichorid matchup) the deck has.  Adding black doesn't help you compete with Stax and it actually hinders you by necessitating fewer basics and must-run black slots like Duress effects that are frequently terrible against Stax.

[Smmenen]

What do you think makes G/W a better deck choice than G/W/b?

It's a mixture of the fact that adding the third color hurts the mana more significantly than it seems on paper

Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite.   Adding the third color -esp post Zendikar -- hurts alot less than it looks on paper.    You can play almost the same number of basics now.   

[Troy_Costisick]

What do you think makes G/W a better deck choice than G/W/b?

It's a mixture of the fact that adding the third color hurts the mana more significantly than it seems on paper

Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite.   Adding the third color -esp post Zendikar -- hurts alot less than it looks on paper.    You can play almost the same number of basics now. 

Yep, I can confirm this.  Playing three colors has never been easier.  And if you can't afford the revised duals, the Ravnica block ones are an okay substitute right now since Storm decks are at a lull. 

Peace,

-Troy

[Kowal]

Well let's not worry about the ability to afford things.  The deck is being proposed because it's good, not because it's cheap.

As far as color splashing, it has little to do with the ability to find the lands, and more to do with getting the mileage out of the lands you've already found.  The deck constantly needs GW, GG, and frequently WW.  It needs to be able to support these color combinations while supporting a pile of strip effects, and needs to be able to reliably put those combinations together without having effects like Brainstorm or Sensei's Top to help out.  I have lost games without even running the third color because of inconsistencies in the mana, and no matter how good the new fetches are it isn't going to change that by adding more inconsistencies.

I don't think the black splash is godawful mind you, I think it's perfectly respectable.  I just don't think it's optimal for that reason and the reason that I feel my G/W slots are better than the options black gives me, as I've mentioned.

[Smmenen]

I also think that running three Teeg is wrong at worst, questionable at best.   The 4th Teeg is better than any number of the 2-of slots that you have.    Yes, it is true that he is Legendary, and a second cannot be played.  On the other hand, if your opponent can counter the first one with Force, they will.   Which means that he is a Force of Will super magnet.   I run 4 Teeg in the GWB version, too. 

[Kowal]

If my opponent counters my first one with Force, I'll be surprised if their hand contains anything else that costs more than 3.  Seeing duplicates of him is so bad I actually frequently consider reducing him to 2.  4 strikes me as very, very wrong.

[Smmenen]

Yes, if they counter your Teeg, their hand probably doesn't have another Force.  But that doesn't mean they won't have another later.   For example, if they pull off  Tinker, you want your answer to resolve.   Or, you won't want them to be able to counter later threats.   Teeg is one of the best cards in the deck, and is GW's best turn one play.  IMO, it's far more important to see it in your opening hand by maximizing the number you include than to be concerned about potential redunancy.   Imagine if that argument were applied to Force of Will: The second Force isn't as good, but that doesn't mean you reduce the number of Forces per deck.   The first Teeg is often countered, but that doesn't mean the second is dead.   That my view, at least.   

Anyway, here is my GWb list, pre-Zendikar:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures
4 Gaddock Teeg
   

Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard:

3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Planar Void
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Note that I like Chalice better than Thorn.   

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The comparison to Force is a bad analogy.  Multiple Forces can be cast even if the first one resolves, and they often win games.  If your first Teeg resolves any other Teegs are completely useless (and therefore the worst cards in your deck) unless your first is destroyed somehow.  

Thus the issue, as you noted, is whether increasing your chance of drawing Teeg in your opening hand outweighs the dead draws that it will often cause later on.  I think that the three-colour build can better support 4 Teegs because the cards you draw off Dark Confidant mitigate the card disadvantage of drawing multiples that are dead.  In the 2 colour build you have no draw engine so you really want to maximize your chance of drawing useful cards.

Also note that a lot of the time (for example, against Fish and Oath, or if Tezz doesn't draw Gifts/Fact/Tezz) Teeg is just a Meddling Mage on Force of Will, which is not really that impressive (since in this case Shusher is often better).

[Guli]

I recently opened a trhead about scroll rack. Fundamentally it was about this issue of quality versus quantity. Having multiple gaddock teeg is only 1 example. Does fish or more general 'aggro control' require a fixing of this issue?

Lastly, I think quality is overrated in fish.  I 100% disgree that Old Gifts era WU fish was improved by running brainstorm.  If you drift back through the archives you can find where I argue that point out in several places.  But that is niether here nor there.  Scroll Rack isn't brainstorm.  Its a 3 mana commitment at least, and it doesn't cantrip.  And It opens you up to common hate.

The thread was moved by the staff because they thought I was promoting some kind of list. My reason of creating the thread was to open up this old discussion of consistency, quantity and quality but in the new meta and new sets therefore in a new context. How much longer will null rod strategies work? Or the other side of the coin, will null rod become stronger while time passes by? I think these are interesting themes worthy enough to refresh periodically.

The thread was moved because there are no tournament results to back up Scroll Rack as a viable engine in Type One, the current successful aggro lists don't run it, and it's not synergistic with Null Rod, which is a centerpiece of good aggro concepts, including this one.  Please don't speak for the staff, we're capable of explaining our own decisions.  -DA

[Guli]

I forgot to make this post, it was kind of my initial thought.

Kataki wins games when dummies like me forget to pay for sphinx's lol.

But in all seriousness the deck is nasty, Shushers and Mindcensors were MVP's from what i saw and the Thorns are real scary in that deck, Grats on the finish and i hope it continues to  hold its own for you

In response to the early posts about answering Tinker. It is not unlikely that the player going for tinker will lose their big guy to kataki. Look at the list, it runs choke and the usual mana denial package. I like this approach a lot. It is not waterproof but it is non targeted. Going for the tinker route does eat up resources, the aggro player will not stand by doing nothing. And if you wait too long with Tinker, aven will pop up sooner or later. Kataki can put them in the corner leaving them with only 1 big guy which can be raced or even killed with mana denial.

[scipio]

Anyway, here is my GWb list, pre-Zendikar:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Creatures
4 Gaddock Teeg
   

Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
   
Sideboard:

3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Planar Void
2 Seal Of Cleansing
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Note that I like Chalice better than Thorn.   

I have a hard time understanding why this is  a significantly better choice than G/W.  It has fewer disruptive creatures, and dark confidant, while typically strong, takes a long time to come online when he's not drawing resticted bombs. Being a 2/1 also grants opposing deck darkblasts relevance they would not otherwise have.  Elvish spirit guide would appear to lose some strength as well.  Agasint decks packing serious mana denial, your chances seem poor. 

How is the Stax matchup?

Would tidehollow sculler have a role in this list? 

I do agree than turn 1 interactivity is important, but blue offers good choices in this regard, such as spell pierce, ancestral, and force. 

[Smmenen]

You have fewer disruptive creatures but that's because you draw more cards with bob and you have 4 Thoughtseize, which is better than any creature, and you have two tutors and Diabolic Edicts.  

You still have 4 Null Rod, 4 Teeg, 3 Mindcensor, and 4 Pridemage, you just have 4 Bob and 4 Thoughtseize instead of junk like Ethersworn Canonist or Shusher, and you have 4 Goyf instead of Grunt, which is just better in a larger range of matchups.  

I never said it was significantly better than GW.  But it is better.    I've played both G/W and GWB, and if I were playing in a tournament there is no question that I'd play GWB.    I played GWB at Steel City Power Nine, and only missed top 8 because I drew into 9th place the last round with Soly, thinking I was locked into top 8.    Thoughtsieze is really huge.  

One of the biggest weaknesses in the GW list is the inability to really address Tinker targets.   Aven Mindcensor is often too slow.   GWB allows you to do that.  

[Guli]

You have fewer disruptive creatures but that's because you draw more cards with bob and you have 4 Thoughtseize, which is better than any creature, and you have two tutors and Diabolic Edicts.  

You still have 4 Null Rod, 4 Teeg, 3 Mindcensor, and 4 Pridemage, you just have 4 Bob and 4 Thoughtseize instead of junk like Ethersworn Canonist or Shusher, and you have 4 Goyf instead of Grunt, which is just better in a larger range of matchups.  

I never said it was significantly better than GW.  But it is better.    I've played both G/W and GWB, and if I were playing in a tournament there is no question that I'd play GWB.    I played GWB at Steel City Power Nine, and only missed top 8 because I drew into 9th place the last round with Soly, thinking I was locked into top 8.    Thoughtsieze is really huge.  

One of the biggest weaknesses in the GW list is the inability to really address Tinker targets.   Aven Mindcensor is often too slow.   GWB allows you to do that.  

I agree with this fully. It was actually exactly what I was saying months ago just before you released your article about GW and GWb. But this is all pre ZEN, did something change in your eyes TODAY? Any new touches on your mind? ZEN did release some interesting stuff...
Would the GWb list you posted now still be a good choice today?

I get that you're upset about having your thread moved, but derailing this thread isn't the appropriate way to talk about it.  -DA

Why do you relate this post of me, that is directed to Smmenen, to something that has got nothing to do with it. And why do you think I am upset, we PM'ed each other several times and I clearly said it was nothing emotional for me. I don't have to agree with your justification to move threads, I only have to respect it and I do.

I read Smmenen articles and he almost used the exact same wordings to describe the archetype of GW and GWb. I can go search the old threads and some of my posts that predate the release of the articles. I also read the articles again yesterday just to be sure. I like the articles, and fully agree with almost every single word, cause I would simply phrased it almost identical. And I asked questions in my post in case you didn't notice. Or do you find my questions irrelevant?

[CowWithHat]

Kowal, for your GW beats list, is there anything about Zendikar that would have you change the deck?  Specifically, I would run either the G/B or G/U fetch over the R/G one just to bluff a different deck.  That is mostly a jedi mind trick issue and is therefore minor but there is also a metagame shift whenever a set with this many playable cards comes out; would you adapt to that in any way?

Smmemen's list for GWB is also pre-Zendikar which is odd to me.  Kowal's point that the manabase hit of a third color is significant was rebuffed with "its easier now with zendikar fetches."  However, the list that was posted runs 14 green and 14 white sources to the initial list's 18 and 18.  His concern, then, is valid if the Zendikar lands do not move the permanent mana source counts up.  I know the consistency of 14 sources is often touted as ideal but Kowal made the point already that the change to 18 is "more significant than it seems on paper."

I know teams often like to keep a deck under wraps around metagame shifts but, smmemen, can we at least see what you are doing with the manabase in GWB with the new fetch contingency?

Also, as a personal curiosity, what does this mean?

I never said it was significantly better than GW.  But it is better.

If it is insignificantly better, doesn't that imply that both lists are equal in all relevant situations?  If that is the case I would be terribly surprised because these two decks have a lot of differences.  If it is not the case I would like to understand better what you meant.

[Kowal]

Kowal, for your GW beats list, is there anything about Zendikar that would have you change the deck?  Specifically, I would run either the G/B or G/U fetch over the R/G one just to bluff a different deck.  That is mostly a jedi mind trick issue and is therefore minor but there is also a metagame shift whenever a set with this many playable cards comes out; would you adapt to that in any way?

I wouldn't bother trying to bluff a different deck.  However, if not for the sake of convenience I'd be running two U/G fetches and a G/B fetch over three wooded foothills to dodge things like Pithing Needle.

[Gurra]

I'm curious about Karakas, how good has it been for you? What have you bounced besides Teegs and Katakis and is it better than a 4th Horizon Canopy?

[Stormanimagus]

I'm curious about Karakas, how good has it been for you? What have you bounced besides Teegs and Katakis and is it better than a 4th Horizon Canopy?

Ummmm... Isn't for Iona?

[Kowal]

In tournament play, it's basically only saved Teeg from Pyroclasm.  It was relevant, but not game-breaking.  In testing however, I found it to be absolutely golden against Oath.  Oathing up Iona kinda sucks when Karakas is on the table.

Were I to fit the 4th horizon canopy in, it would occupy the space of one of the savannahs or the second forest rather than Karakas.

[Guli]

In tournament play, it's basically only saved Teeg from Pyroclasm.  It was relevant, but not game-breaking.  In testing however, I found it to be absolutely golden against Oath.  Oathing up Iona kinda sucks when Karakas is on the table.

Were I to fit the 4th horizon canopy in, it would occupy the space of one of the savannahs or the second forest rather than Karakas.

I am curious about the canopy. Exactly what role does the cantrip land play? It is not really something I added in my G/W lists. How does it play out. In what situations is it good. Would you consider it an auto include in G/W beatz?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

[I am curious about the canopy. Exactly what role does the cantrip land play? It is not really something I added in my G/W lists. How does it play out. In what situations is it good. Would you consider it an auto include in G/W beatz?

I think it is an auto include because if you have to use it for mana, the 1 life loss/tap is usually negligible.  Consequently, it has a very minimal drawback and when you have plenty of mana sources or topdeck it later on it is better than any other land because you can turn it into another card.

Since the G/W list doesn't have Dark Confidant, canopy helps you smooth out mana heavy draws and reduces loses due to useless topdecks.

[Guli]

[I am curious about the canopy. Exactly what role does the cantrip land play? It is not really something I added in my G/W lists. How does it play out. In what situations is it good. Would you consider it an auto include in G/W beatz?

I think it is an auto include because if you have to use it for mana, the 1 life loss/tap is usually negligible.  Consequently, it has a very minimal drawback and when you have plenty of mana sources or topdeck it later on it is better than any other land because you can turn it into another card.

Since the G/W list doesn't have Dark Confidant, canopy helps you smooth out mana heavy draws and reduces loses due to useless topdecks.

I am a bit skeptical whether canopy will have the desired effect in reality. The drawback isn't just the 1 life loss, it is a target to wasteland. I am sure leaving it untapped isn't the way to go. I guess it is useful later on to cycle it. I am curious though how much that helped for the people that use it. Insight is welcome.

[Tobi]

I played 3 Canopys in the Darmstadt tournament (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1112&highlight=4#place4) and they have been quite good. However the list I play is a little different than the ones being played elsewhere, having Noble Hierarch.
Canopys also are very nice to have with Knight of the Reliquary.

I am currently testing the use of Worldly Tutor, cutting down some of the creatures which are only good against certain matchups (Knight, Shusher, Teeg, Censor). Not finalized on this, but it is promising. I like it more than the currently used Enlightened Tutor, although Enlightened fetches Lotus, which is huge.