Hey all Help needed

[StrongIslandRob]

Hey guys still new to the vintage format and could use some advice been playing 5c staxx and i found it to be very hit or miss IMO im also no outstanding staxx player and found my self lossing to oath and dredge moor then i would like to admit so i came up with this build was hopeing for some insieght for my next vintage event http://essentialmagic.com//decks/View.asp?ID=741509

[TheShop]

it looks as if you are trying to play combo with workshops using the helm instead of attempting to lock the opponent out of the game.  Everyone may not agree with me, but here is where I would start (just a basis for trying it out):

Cheap Lock Pieces:
Either
4 Sphere of Resistance
1-2 Thorn of Amthyst
1 Seal of Cleansing
-or-
3-4 Null Rod
3-4 Chalice of the Void

More expensive lock pieces:
3-4 Smokestack
3-4 Crucible of Worlds
3-4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

Colored Spells
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal (VERY GOOD)
0-2 Crop Rotation
1 Balance

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder (ALSO GOOD)

here it gets more grey, you can choose from a suite of the creatures below that have found their way into 5-c Stax in the past (or just run 1, though some of these are not recommended with Null Rod):
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1-3 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
0-2 Gorilla Shaman

Artifact Mana:
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Land:
4 Mishra's workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
3-4 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian ring (at least)
0-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (depending on your meta, and probably in the sideboard if you run Crop Rotation)
0-1 Bazaar of Baghdad

Normally Stax ends up running 19 land slots and somewhere between 26 and 29 mana sources.  Sometimes one of the 19 lands does not create mana and is for utility with crop rotation.

I have left a lot in the grey because a lot of builds do it differently.  Also, some of the inclusions become a matter of personal preference because there have been a number of winning variations on the deck over the years.  The helm + leyline deck is a different animal all together.

I would look at Steven Menedian's articles on Stax (they are numerous).  If you want to figure out what the goals of the deck are and a basic understanding of playing it, look at the earlier articles from when they were figuring out how it worked.  The newer articles tend to tune the list since 2005.

[StrongIslandRob]

Hey shop thanks, I have a 5c staxx builld at the moment thats all about the lock but i think on long island (where im from) ill do better mainboarding leyline and helm just becaouse every1 plays oath, staxx, and dredge so thta why im trying to combo out with helm this was my 5c build http://essentialmagic.com//decks/View.asp?ID=717643

[XdeckX]

In my experience Oath is one of the worst matchups you could have playing Stax (in any form)
Your gameplan is slowing down and locking your opponent out. Oath doesnt care about mana in play as long as it can resolve Oath.
The same goes from Ichorid (or dredge or whatever you want to call it). It just laughs at your lockpieces because they really dont have to resolve any spell if they can Bazaar a couple of time to get the dredge engine going.
If your meta is infested with Oath and Ichorid you might want to reconsider your deckchoice as Stax isnt really fit to battle those decks.

If you still want to play some workshop deck with Leylines you might want to try something like Obeyline or a Gilded Claw variant using Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obeydience. I've been messing about with a Gilded Claw deck using Leyline, Helm and Entomb...
Just for fun here's the list... no tournament data available because I havent played it in a tournament yet.

4x shop
4x cob
3x gmine
1x tolarian
1x strip
1x bazaar
1x urborg
3x wasteland

5x mox
1x lotus
1x sol ring
1x mcrypt

4x welder
1x gshaman
1x sharuum
2x trike
1x titan
1x karn

3x entomb
1x crop rotation

4x leyline
1x helm of obey
4x sphere
1x trini
1x mjar
1x glotus
1x crelic
1x balance
1x cow
1x demonic
1x vampiric
1x tinker
1x arecall
4x chalice

/sb
2x reb
1x pyro
2x platz
1x dupe
3x neelde
3x ray of rev
3x acient grudge

[TheShop]

Hey,
here has been my strategy in the past against those decks:
Oath:
Seal of Cleansing is SOOOOOO good for this, KronStax ran 2 copies!
Greater Gargadon - One Red mana to make a huge guy and eliminate the chance of them oathing for several turns...
Spawning Pit - same deal for 2 colorless, they never activate oath
Rushing River - Bounce the Oath creature and the oath itself, another great application here is to bounce your tokens after the opponent oaths and then trigger oath yourself in an attempt to hit Duplicant (this is really cool if you pull it off)
Ensnaring Bridge - I have never used this, but it looks like it would be a more multipurpose hater
Swords to Plowshares/New Swords - have never had to use this because I normally find Duplicant and win by welding him over and over
Jester's Cap - Also, very very very good, remove the creatures from the game and simply win.

Opposing Stax Deck:
Seal of Cleansing - kill the crucible
Darkblast - kills welders
Viashino Heretic - Kills almost anything that needs killing and the opponent at same time
There are some good Roland Change vs. Robert Vroman tourney reports and articles out there where you can read how this match operates.  Also, there was a Stax vs. Stax matchup (though differing builds-yours is more like Chang than Vroman) in Vroman's UbaStax Parties like its 2005 report.  There are other good cards for this, but I think Heretic and Darkblast are the way to go, they cripple the opponent.  Heretic + Welder = you control the opponents board more than he does.

Dredge:
This matchup is terrible.  Put you 7-8 yard hate cards in from your sideboard and go for it, cards may include:
Leyline
Tormod's Crypt
extirpate

there are others, but I like extirpate and crypt (crypt is recurrable with welder and tinkerable-one more tutor for it)

Other things you can do is to run mogg fanatic or something along those lines.

[StrongIslandRob]

Deff i just love staxx and the way it plays thats why i wont switch over plus i invested too much into the deck just did some playtesting and finally beat oath with my leyline build but i admit i do hate having tangle smoke and SOR at 3 but as of now its working

[TheShop]

I posted this list on the other forum (which has a link to the most recent menendian article on stax: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38373.0), no one commented at all...but I am interested in this new build for a couple of reasons-
1)  Stax decks that run 5 colors have never had a draw engine.
2)  Traditionally 5c Stax does not run Null Rod and Chalice

Here is my Stax project:

1   Trinisphere
3   Null Rod
1   Seal of Cleansing
4   Chalice of the Void
3   Smokestack
3   Crucible of Worlds
3   Tangle Wire
4   Dark Confidant
4   Goblin Welder
1   Balance
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Tinker
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Imperial Seal
1   Crop Rotation
1   Karn, Silver Golem
4   Mishra's Workshop
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
4   City of Brass
3   Gemstone Mine
1   Barbarian Ring
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Vault
1   Black Lotus

This has not been tested other than about 1000 times goldfishing.  I was making an attempt with the list to get away from the 6 redundant spheres (that the opponent can build out of at times) to a more solid and quick lock.  Uba lists have run Rods/Chalice over spheres for year..this is not new, and all lists that are not 5 color run Bob now..I think that this is simply an update that needs to happen here- Roland Chang ran 3-4 copies of Thirst for Knowledge in 5color and an Ancestral, Uba ran Bazaar and Uba mask, and the new decks are running Bazaar and Bob.  The only deck who has gone backwards in tech has been 5-color Stax who left its draw engine and ran more 2 mana lock components.  This hearkens back to the original KronStax list and theory not to modernization.

A final note on Chalice:  Chalices have been in the 5 color side board at times and Kron ran 3 maindeck at several events.  You can't tell me that they simply don't work in 5color and that spheres are more symmetrical.  My list simply runs less cards in the ranges that chalice would come down for than the average other vintage deck.

[StrongIslandRob]

Hey shop your list is just wow its totally diff to the build as of now and would be honerd to play against you

[TheShop]

It really isn't anything I could take credit for as being new because everything in the manabase was already in 5color, Bobs/Rods/Chalices are already in the new R/B builds, and everything else was already in 5color.  I was just trying out something new to get the lock down faster because I am very skeptical of the new 5color builds that run 4 crucibles and a bunch of ways to blow up land, and no way to deal with other mana sources.

I would love to playtest with someone too, but there is no one in my area that also does Vintage, and I am on a Mac...so I think I can only use LackeyCCG and not workstation or apprentice.  No one on Lackey plays Vintage.  Thanks though!