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Author Topic: The European Storm and Bonus tournament report  (Read 16184 times)
Marske
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« on: November 02, 2009, 08:59:04 am »

The European Storm

As most of you know I made my "claim to fame" so to say with playing The Perfect Storm. After piloting it for the better part of a year and a half I felt it was time to mix things up a little more and I dived into the think tank with fellow RnD member and Vintage Legend Rich "The Atog Lord" Shay to brew up something special.

I knew November would be a very busy Month for me packed with tournaments, having my own event on November 1st and the Dutch Vintage Championship on the 14th together with another Vintage event in Hengelo in December, I wanted enough time to tweak and prepare the deck.  It started way back in September with the first rough outlines posted on our team boards, soon Rich picked up on it and the idea just took off. Today I'll break the deck down for you guys and write down how it performed for me during my own event to give you an idea about it's viability.

Searching for the  draw engine that could...

Since the DCI deemed "cheap" blue draw to be the mortal enemy it's been harder and harder to find something that helps blue decks "outdraw" the opponent. Most decks have converted to running Dark Confidant as a draw engine because it offers a steady stream of cards, the life loss is manageable through the very little manipulation we have left but it opens you up to a whole slew of other problems. Ever since Thirst for Knowledge got restricted our team boards have seen a wide range of possible draw engines, I've covered some of them here.

None of the draw engines really worked the way we wanted. I was messing around with a lot of different stuff and then it struck me, as I was walking down memory lane reading tournament reports of past and current events, it suddenly hit me like lightning. Repeal offers the best of both worlds in being a bounce spell and a cantrip and the fact that it's cheap also counts for something.  Looking at the stuff most decks run to "fix" their draws the obvious choice was Sensei's Divining Top, a staple in Legacy and Extended and a card that's been making the cut in Vintage for some time now. It can potentially give you "Ancestral" like amounts of cards when combined with shuffle effects. Combined with Repeal this could potentially give you a very robust drawing engine.

Here's how it works:

With a Top in play you can pay 1 mana to look at the top 3 cards (if need be) then you can activate the top, with the trigger on the stack you play Repeal for 1U targeting the top. When this resolves Repeal bounces the top (drawing you one card from Repeal) and then the top trigger resolves (drawing you a second card and not putting the top on top because it's now in your hand)  This gives you +3 cards in hand (2 cards drawn and top) for just 1U (or 2U if you want to look at the top 3 or play the top this turn) which basically equals Thirst for Knowledge with an artifact in hand  (draw 3 discard 2 unless you discard an artifact) and the best part is you don't even have to discard so you can just replay the top and repeat it all the wile maintaining an amount of top deck fixing by using the Top.

Along with being able to draw a huge amount of cards Repeal can be used to bounce Null Rods or opposing Confidants (effectively outdrawing them in the process) so it's never a dead card, something other engines also suffer from. The second or third Confidant is usually pretty dead once you have one already in play unless the opponent removes it. Making it sit useless in your hand, some might feel a bit lucky and risk playing the second one but this gets increasingly dangerous when facing decks with Null Rod as you have no means of manipulating the top deck (with top rendered useless and Brainstorm / Ponder being restricted) you can die to flipping Force of Wills and Inkwell Leviathan (not to mention all the other expensive spells Drain decks usually run)  pretty fast when the opponent has a Tarmogoyf crashing into the red zone every turn.  Repeal solved all of those issues, because it's never truly dead it offers a flexibility that's unmatched by other options. Filling out the rest of the "draw" package with most of the restricted list was fairly obvious and something we can't escape from.

I still felt the need to include Dark Confidant in the deck because it gives you an added way to deal with Stax a match up that from the get go seemed like "bad" because of the low mana cost cantrips and Stax historic dominance over decks running such tricks. The entire package is very well suited to either bounce opposing permanents (drawing a card in the process) and drawing even more with Confidant or drawing a huge amount of cards when you don't need to bounce something and can just combine Top, Repeal and Confidant into a very huge stream of cards. The draw package was rounded out by Fact or Fiction which has the ability to give you complete broken piles and Frantic Search. Now, it' s a controversial pick to include frantic search as you don't actually "gain" cards you just merely swap the top 2 cards of your deck with 2 others in your hand (putting them in your graveyard) for free. It's a good way to filter or untap lands when facing stuff like Choke which has seen more play in Beats type decks, it was certainly something that I wanted to try.

Killing the opponent...

With our draw engine rounded out it looked like this deck was going to be playing a lot of spells during a single turn, since we obviously will want Black in the deck for Yawghmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor and so on it seemed very logical to include a single copy of Tendrils of Agony. It can be played to give you some much needed life when Confidant flips have put you low taking a chunk out of the opposing player in the process. The fact that confidant also beats and this deck draws huge amounts of cards (playing cheap spells in the process) makes a Tendrils "Lethal" much sooner compared to Dark ritual based storm decks, although you will never be as fast, a storm count of merely 5-6 can be enough to win the game, it seemed a very natural fit in this deck.

As all decks need a plan B should their plan A fail it was fairly obvious it would be Tinker - Robot (which has been the classic plan B since ages), I believe (barring some Dark ritual based storm decks) all other decks only have 2 real options as a robot.  Sphinx of the Steel Wind (awesome tech found by Mike Solymossy from GWS fame) and Inkwell Leviathan. I opted for Sphinx because of the ability to race multiple goyfs and shutdown entire decks disabling them from racing or removing it.

My first list contained only these 2 kill condition and I was fairly happy with the way this deck handled itself, after some discussion on the Team boards it became clear that the deck could and should support Time Vault and Voltaic Key as a Kill condition as well. Naturally we're going to draw into this combo much sooner then most and Voltaic Key interacts with the draw engine as well making it even more nuts.

Better safe then sorry, use protection....

This deck looked increasingly mana hungry with a huge potential of using any colorless mana one could gain, adding Mana Drain to the deck was a no-brainer along with the obvious 4x Force of Will. This deck already had a lot of Bounce spells in Repeal but I felt like It really needed to max out on possible solutions so I added Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild to the mix, both meant for the more clear purpose of bounce opposing permanents while keeping your draw engine (Repeal) intact enough. Rebuild offers some draw via cycling and both it and Hurkyl's can help upping the storm count for a lethal Tendrils (a trick borrowed from older Drain Tendrils lists) With all this going on squeezing in any kind of hand disruption like Duress or Thoughtseize was next to impossible.

Better go find what you're looking for....

Besides "naturally" drawing into your kill having ways to search it is what defines Vintage. Beyond the obvious suspects like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll I felt this deck needed something different. At first I had Minds Desire and Gush in the decks to take a bit more out of the Drain Tendrils book. After testing this configuration for some time Minds Desire kept being pitched or when cast flipping only more disruption. Unlike decks like TPS this deck doesn't have a high bomb density and you'd need a much higher storm count to actually make Desire lethal and flipping a bunch of Repeals after you've tapped out to play desire effectively removing them wasn't great either. The match ups in which Desire shines (against control) were already strongly in this decks favor because of the draw engine so it seemed logical to just cut it. Gush while great in theory is just a shell of it's former self. Without multiples or at least Fastbond in the deck the card just really doesn't make the cut. This meant I had some room to play with and with the deck working the way it did it seemed very logical to add yet another Vintage Oldie to the mix rounding out the flow of the deck. I'm off course talking about Gifts, this card as a one off has been a staple in most Blue decks and Storm decks alike. With everything going on in the deck I knew I wanted to make it 3 colors to give myself a better game 2 and 3 against Stax so naturally Red was the first color on my mind opening up Recoup which also seemed to naturally fit the flow of the deck.

So with this all in mind I present you:

The European Storm
A deck suggested by M. van Zundert

instant [21]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Repeal
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Frantic Search

Creatures[4]
1 Sphinx of the Steelwind
3 Dark Confidant

sorcery [7]
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Recoup
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

artifact [14]
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

land [15]
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Thoughtseize
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Old-Man of the sea
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens

The sideboard was aimed to deal with Fish, Stax and Ichorid which proved to be difficult match ups, one of the weak spots this deck has is that it's a full turn slower then TPS although a lot more stable. Making it vulnerable in the Storm Mirror something that cannot be easily solved because the very nature of this deck makes this a fact. The only thing one can do is add hand disruption and graveyard hate and win with tight play. This meant adding Thoughtseize as it's potentially very useful against Fish as well (Gaddock Teeg is still a speed bump one must navigate) combined with the obvious Extirpate and Tormod's Crypt for Dredge this should be enough.

Empty The Warrens is a card very few people carry solutions for and it's the bane of Stax and Fish players alike, with this in mind and the knowledge I'd be running red this seemed like a logical sideboard choice to replace Tendrils of Agony in those match ups. Empty has an even lower threshold for being good with only 2-3 storm needed to create enough tokens to give those match ups a hard time. I rounded the Stax hate off with Ingot Chewer as it's a massive thread which can dodge chalice and pose a very real thread when you hard cast it. Together with Darkblast (dealing with Welder) and Pithing needle which also has a place against Fish and Ichorid this rounded out the hate to deal with shops.  I chose Old-Man of The Sea over Sower because of the added ability to keep stealing creatures against fish if they Edict you or you chump block a goyf with the stolen creature. Against decks like Selkie this proved very strong as they have no real way to effectively deal with the old-man once you can protect it a bit. Combined with Sphinx, ETW, Darkblast and Pyroclasm Fish decks have a very hard time beating you post board.

On to the tournament report

I took very little notes and most of this is by memory so if I make mistakes I'll just apologize in advance, I'll just do a short recap. I played this deck during The Dutch Vintage IX yesterday with 40 people battling for an Unlimited Time walk and Mana Drain for second place. As I'm part of the organization I'm usually busy with all kinds of stuff like setting everything up or even judging. This time around my friend and Teammate Arjan (Zieby) took the task of all the days operations so I merely had to show up and play for a change. After arriving at the tournament center and catching up with all the usual suspects I see Duncan and Guus (Mantis) entering the hall with Duncan sporting a cast on his left arm (he broke his wrist, get better soon bro !) 

We joke a little about how he's going to shuffle and have some laughs catching up again. He's sporting RnD's own "Minus Six" which is a Bob Dragon list with a transformational sideboard (boarding to Tezzeret) first piloted by fellow RnD member Chris "Demonic Attorney" Browne a while back. Guus says he's bring Meatberts Sharuum Dredge to the table (which explains why he needed my bazaars and half of the deck)  Arjan is sporting his own take on TES which is UB.  The entire day for me was centered around the final testing gauntlet for the deck I've been working on for the past 2 month's win or lose isn't very interesting at this point it's all about finding out if the decks able to perform in a 6 round tournament setting and what needs to change.

Round one - Mathi Leanarts playing Oath.
I know Mathi and we've battled before, I've got a positive streak against him beating him in the previous TDV event and in Mol with TPS. I also know he's a very solid player and since I've not played Drains or anything slower then TPS or Dredge since Slaver was the deck to beat I'm very excited to find out if my rusty skills are still good enough. We start off with some friendly chats because Mathi is a really relaxed player not into trash talking or banter. He's got a wicked cold which keeps him sneezing and grabbing tissues during our entire round so I ask if it's got the swine flu and if I should be worried but he says it's just a regular cold and we both shrug and shuffle up.

Game 1
I win the die roll and my opening hand is good enough (at this point I'm kicking myself for not writing down starting hands) My notes show I opened with Library of Alexandria having it active for the entire game effectively outdrawing him every step of the way. I don't see anything interesting from him and most of his actions show he's playing a Drain deck or at least something of that ilk. I generate enough storm and Tutor for Tendrils to win the first game without much hassle.

Game 2
I boarded like I would against Tezzeret taking out Frantic Search, Sphinx (because it's not that good in the mirror) adding 1 Extirpate and 1 Empty the Warrens for added pressure.

I start this game with Land, Sol Ring, Sensei's Top and take it from there. At one point after some calculations I realize the gifts I just drew of the top is lethal with every piece still in my deck. During Mathi's end of turn I announce Gifts with Drain backup and it resolves without a counter. I grab the following pile:

Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Recoup, Yawghmoth's Will.

he looks at the pile and gives a frustrated sigh as he sees whats coming. I have Mox Sapphire, Ruby and Sol ring in play (tapped to play gifts) and 2 basics and 2 Underground sea. With Ancestral, Time walk, Polluted Delta and a Repeal in my graveyard  this pile spells doom. After some minutes he settles on giving me Yawghmoth's Will and Voltaic Key sending Recoup and Time Vault to the yard. I untap and draw Lotus Petal. I play the petal and announce Yawghmoth's Will using a Underground Sea and Sol ring. At this point the obvious fact that I can sac and replay the petal escapes me, he lets it resolve (I still had the Mana drain) and I proceed to sac the petal to replay Ancestral Recall (?!) I then proceed to play the Time Vault using the the 2 Moxen and the Voltaic Key. At this point I activate the key to untap the time vault and Mathi announces Ancient Grudge (tapping him out) I look at the board seeing: 2 moxen (tapped), Solring (tapped) 2 Underground see (2 tapped) 2 Island (1 tapped to activate the Key) and the lonely Mana drain stuck in my hand with the Ancestral not giving me a Force I have to let it resolve. I facepalm myself in my mind for this obvious greedy mistake (no sense in playing Ancestral or not to sac the petal to play Will) and try to remain my cool, very rusty indeed.... It doesn't matter in the end because the ancestral gave me Rebuild, Lotus, Tendrils so I proceed to pass the turn receive it back and combo out with no hassle but it could have been a potentially fatal mistake.

Matches: 1-0 Games: 2-0

Round two Thomas Hendriks playing ANT
Again a familiar face, Thomas is sporting the same ANT list I once pioneered and the one that has brought him a few top 8 finishes to date. We've played each other before during Vintage and PTQ's and we jokingly banter about what matters most, I indicate I've never lost to him in Vintage competition and he points out the fact I've never beaten him during an Extended PTQ. Thomas ended up winning the event (Congrats on the finish !!) and he's featured in the Video that will be up soon. This match is trademarked by a lot of banter going both ways as we both jokingly take verbal stabs at each other all in good sports because we have a mutual respect for each other.

Game 1
I win the die roll and keep a good opener with a turn 2 Mana drain or Confidant so I open up with a fetch land and pass the turn. Because Thomas has played a wide range of decks from BUG fish to ANT I have no clue what he's on today but the hand looks solid enough unless he has a turn 1 kill.  From my vast experience in pioneering and playing ANT I know what the decks capable off and barring the mythical first turn Kill I should be able to manage the matchup if he's sporting it although it's nowhere near favorable or even close to being decent for me. I should have noticed that small twinkel in his eyes as he announced he'd keep his opening seven as he ecstatically exclaims he'll finally have his revenge beating me in the storm mirror (he put me on TPS) having the first turn kill. He goes about the normal ANT stuff doing lots of broken shit and resolving a turn 1 Ad Nauseam, I'm nowhere near scooping because I know with the build he's running he has the potential to kill himself so I tell him to earn his victory and play it out. He flips the first card: Ad Nauseam (goes down to 13) he flips another Cabal Ritual (11) he flips another Ad Nauseam (6) in desperate search of anything that would lead him to cast the Cabal ritual or find a tendrils to keep going he flips another card: Tendrils of Agony (2 life) not content with just passing the turn and going next turn (probably in fear of a quick TPS finish) he flips another card: Demonic Tutor....  So I win the first game, phew what luck...(Thomas if you read this, bad beats happen dude)

Game 2
Our banter continues (to much entertainment of the onlooking crowd that has gathered at this point)  as I jokingly point out to this very unfavorable match up going my way again denying him his revenge and him claiming it's not over.

He elects to play first and opens broken enough to Demonic Consultation for Ad Nauseam and have the mana floating to cast it when he finds it. I *sigh* in frustration as it looks like he'll get his first turn kill after all...  He flips the fist six : Tendrils of Agony, Black Lotus, Yawgh. Will, Swamp, Fetch, Necro... well that's a beating but he's still fine... He continues flipping and promptly flips his remaning 2 Tendrils of Agony removing them from the game before he could find Ad Nauseam leaving him with no kill left he scoops.

The entire crew busts out in laughter and they offer their sympathy for Thomas, he shrugs and shakes my hand claiming he'll have his revenge soon enough and I say well bad beats but we'll see another time.

Matches: 2-0 Games:  4-0

Round three Martijn van der Vaart playing Drain Tendrils
I do have a knack for facing familiar faces as Martijn is one as well, we've both been avid supporters of running TPS (his with a red splash and mine being UB) and I'm rather excited to see if I can come out on top. The last time I faced Martijn was a TPS mirror with him coming out on top so I'm both eager to see if my decks up for it and if I can have some revenge. This match up looks hard pre-board but post board should change a lot with me adding graveyard hate.  Martijn is a very solid player and overall very nice guy, again this is a player content with just playing the game and not throwing a lot of banter so I adjust accordingly and leave the mind games at home.

Game 1
We both start off mimicking like we're playing the TPS mirror, imagine my surprise when I'm still alive turn 3 and he forces a Dark Confidant into play with a Drain to protect it. I switch gears and immediately assume he's running his crews Bob Tezzeret list which should be tremendously in my favor. I play a Top revealing my true nature and get my own confidant into play. Again I'm hugely surprised when he proceeds to use his drain mana to fuel all kinds of Shenanigans with Rebuild, Moxen, Sol ring and a lethal Tendrils to the dome. Oh god great minds do think alike and just like we've both been supporters of running TPS he now made the switch to Drain Tendrils on the same day I premier TES (which resembles DT a lot but isn't quite like it)

Game 2
Being a bit flabbergasted with this change I board in Extirpate and Darkblast taking out Sphinx and Frantic Search. In retrospect I should have boarded Thoughtseizes but at the time it didn't even cross my mind. He opens with LoA and second turn Bob and I never catch up. Another lethal Tendrils seals the deal.

We both joke about how we assumed to be facing TPS and how funny it is we both switched to similar decks and we both wish each other luck as we were both undefeated until this point I jokingly say I'll see him in the Top 8 (which he did manage to reach)

Matches 2-1 Games: 4-2

Round four Twan Koperberg running Uba Stax
Again a very familiar face as Twan is part of the same crew Martijn is and I know those guys from all the Vintage and PTQ's we've seen each other at. I know Twan's a very solid player and I've not seen him play so I have no clue what I'm up against.

Game 1
He wins the die roll and opens with turn 1 Chalice of the Void for zero and Goblin Welder..... Ah finally, Stax.... With only a turn 2 Mana Drain and a Repeal in hand I'm not to worried so I let it resolve and during my turn bounce the welder setting him back another turn and drawing a land. Eventually this game boils down to him getting me locked before I could Hurkyl's him for the second time. I knew this was a hard game pre-board so I scoop it up in order to save the time and proceed to game 2.

Game 2
I've brought in the entire arsenal namely: ETW,  2 Pithing Needle, 2 Ingot Chewer and a Darkblast. I leave the confidants in the deck but I take out the expensive cards like Gifts (and with it Recoup), FoF, Frantic,  Tendrils to make the deck curve the same as to not flip myself to death with Confidants. I elect to play and keep my opening 7. I lead with a turn 1 Fetch into Sea, Mana crypt Dark Confidant. He plays a sphere, I Flip a Tinker and Draw a Mox. I play the land I had in my opener and use it to cast the mox and use the Mox to pay extra for the tinker into Sphinx. Twan soon realizes he can't ever race this opening and scoops it up. My deck treated me nicely there.

Game 3
This is the first game 3 I've played this day and I'm curious about my board because the previous game didn't show me anything (besides the obvious knowledge that turn 2 Sphinx completely wrecks Stax) This game was a complete joke as I open again with a turn one Confidant to face his Chalice on one. I feel fairly confident (pun intended) in winning this race as Dark Confidant if left unchecked will give me everything I need to win this. Twan sighs and proceeds to draw a card and play a sphere. This goes on for about 2-3 turns with me just flipping cards and losing life never hitting another land and his chalice for zero on turn 3 shutting down any moxen I would draw... eventually a few Tangle Wires further in the game he plays his trump card (Uba Mask) removing any hope I had left (and all cards) letting me die to my own Confidant.

I felt like my deck left me hanging dry with no land within all those cards but it happens... I shrug and shake Twan's hand an wish him luck.

Matches: 2-2 Games: 5-4

Round five Arjen Ruiterkamp playing Uba Stax
A quick look at the pairings and I see yet familiar face, Arjen has been on a roll and has won the Vintage side-event during the Dutch Nationals running Uba Stax his brother (Gerwin) and him are old time familiars from the Hengelo Crew, they are great guys and very strong competitors. a quick look at the standings show us that I have a shot at possibly making it into the top 8 if I manage to win this match but it looks bleak. Arjen getting up-paired and me getting down paired and with nothing left to win for him and the possible chance for me to make it in he looks at his teammates and if they would get into any trouble if he scooped which wasn't the case and he generously offers to try and scoop me into a chance for the top 8 spot. I'm very thankful and tell him about what I was playing and he says I wouldn't have stood a chance (which might be right)  seeing as we both have been playing the entire day. we head out to the bar area and both enjoy our lunch at around 4 in the afternoon.

Round Six Goswin Zeeman playing Vroman Oath (adjusted a bit)
Oh man, a quick look at the standings show us that we both have a small shot at making it into the top 8 at 8th place so we have to play it out. We take a look at the opponent and both laugh, Goswin is a familiar face (yet again) and a very solid player. We've shared a hotel room in Annecy during Bazaar of Moxen 2 including the entire 10 hour car ride and always hang together during tournaments. As Goswin lives way up North in Holland we only get to see each other during events but it's always lots of laughs.

We've been dying to face each other during a tournament so this match is going to be very fun and intense. A small crowd of people that have dropped gathered to watch it as Dennis (XdeckX) Bijkerk grabs a chair and sits next to us.

Game 1
He gets a turn 2 Oath with Orchard into play and I  can't believe it. I can't get rid of the Oath (or token)  during my turn and I have to pass the turn hoping it's Tyrant or (Platinum) Angel Oath a deck his brother Zagar and he have been known to play. He starts Oathing and the first signs of trouble start showing as he flips a Time Vault, A key and finally a Darksteel colossus. I can't believe my luck and during my turn I frantically try to find a way to win or get rid of the Oath. I fail and have to pass the turn again he gives me another token and proceeds to Oath up Iona (Angel Oath indeed....) naming blue I can't possible win and scoop it up.

Game 2
EDIT: Apparently I resolved TV and Key for the win. Wink

Game 3
Is basically the same as game 1 instead he now Oathed Iona first sealing the deal.

So I'm out and Goswin proceeds to sneak into top 8 (congrats, you did it again).

Conclusion
Overall I was very happy with the way the deck handled itself and barring some rusty play and facing of bad matchups the deck is viable enough to be considered. I'll definitely keep working on this deck as it's very solid. I'll try and answer any questions you guys might have and offer tips if you want to run it yourself.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 10:13:24 am by marske » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 01:34:32 pm »

Marius,

Thanks for the well-written deck discussion and report.

First, my questions after reading this are -- how was Bob, and how was Red? As you know, I've been running a build quite similar to this, but without Red and without Bob. While both excellent in theory, neither has proven itself in my testing.

On the other hand, I believe that Top and Repeal can be categorized as contenders for the coveted title of best draw engine. Are they better than the other options? Unlike Bob, they don't force you into a heavy Black component. And they're both useful on their own. I have been especially happy with Top, provided that there is not a Null Rod on the other side of the table.

As your report shows, there are some difficult matchups for the Repeal deck, and this is something that I am hoping to be able to improve going forward.
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 02:26:03 pm »

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Thanks for the well-written deck discussion and report.
No problem, the deck was ready and deserving of this attention as you very well know.

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First, my questions after reading this are -- how was Bob, and how was Red? As you know, I've been running a build quite similar to this, but without Red and without Bob. While both excellent in theory, neither has proven itself in my testing.
Like I said in the post Bob felt to good to pass up and over the course of the day he ended up losing me a match (against Stax even) but looking at that matchup not drawing into a third land for 4+ turns with him on the table was rather unlikely. He has been golden as a 3-off for me making me outdraw others by miles. Red as you may have read was good enough (at least I was a huge fan of Recoup during the day as I remember using it to flashback a tinker, time walk and a Will later on during some after the tournament games. As for the sideboard I saw way to little of it to actually say something about it. After the event I did however play some more games in which the splash turned out highly relevant. Even Arjan claimed he indeed missed what Red offered.

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On the other hand, I believe that Top and Repeal can be categorized as contenders for the coveted title of best draw engine. Are they better than the other options? Unlike Bob, they don't force you into a heavy Black component. And they're both useful on their own. I have been especially happy with Top, provided that there is not a Null Rod on the other side of the table.
I'll just straight up claim this deck has the strongest most flexible draw engine in Vintage today. I can't think of anything that offers this kind of stuff without reverting to stuff long gone by restrictions.

Quote
As your report shows, there are some difficult matchups for the Repeal deck, and this is something that I am hoping to be able to improve going forward.
I don't know if the Storm mirror matchup can be improved a whole lot as I stated earlier this decks core strategy is the problem. You're just not fast enough if you face a competent storm player. As for the (Uba) Stax matchup I felt the games after boarding against Twan could (and maybe should) have gone my way as my hand was literally packed with good stuff and I would have finished the job if I only hit the 3rd mana source. Some nuances can be changed but I'm not quite sure what those will be. Overall I was very pleased with this final test and the deck is very capable of performing very well with a focussed and experienced pilot. (I missed the focus and like I said I'm a bit rusty with Drains) The fact I nearly hit top 8 with it seemed to indicate it's viability imho.
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 02:34:28 pm »

Marius,

It seems like you are paying too much attention to what Americans have to say Smile  

Have you considered something like what the french have come up with?  Soly played this: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39092.0  

What are your thoughts on ZBS?   
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 02:59:55 pm »

The inclusion of Vault+Key basically makes this Bob Tezz with Repeals, Recoup and Tendrils (despite the fact that you do not run Tezz).  How often is the Tendrils relevant as an alternate kill, given that the main focus of this deck seems to me to be Vault+Key?  Do you think Tendrils is fundamental to the deck or just to make sure you have another kill besides Sphinx and Bob beats (as it seems to me Tezz often is)?

For example, in Match 1 Game 2 you went for the Vault combo when it seems to me that you could have gone for the Storm kill (Gifting for Lotus, Will, Recoup, Demonic Tutor; I think the worst case is you get Will and Recoup and can still Tendrils for 20 even if you don't draw anything useful off Repeal+Ancestral--[this is of course not counting Petal since the decision was at the time you cast gifts]).  Obviously the Vault+Key kill is simpler, and you didn't know he had the Grudge (though of course if you had played around it it wouldn't have mattered anyway), so maybe this is the wrong approach, but ever since I used to play Drain Tendrils and Meandeck Gifts whenever I have mana+Gifts I always think of going for the Tendrils kill first.

I am also wondering how the Dredge matchup is.  To bring in you have 1 Yixlid Jailer 1 Extirpate 1 Tormod's Crypt 2 Pithing Needle, and maybe Pyroclasm for the tokens.  Is this enough to reliably ensure victory in games 2 and 3, or do you just hope not to play against them?
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 03:41:49 pm »

Nice post Marske and well written.

I played a UB version of this deck without Bob and realy liked it going 4 wins and 2 losses and getting 12th out 39.

Like I said in the post Bob felt to good to pass up and over the course of the day he ended up losing me a match (against Stax even) but looking at that matchup not drawing into a third land for 4+ turns with him on the table was rather unlikely. He has been golden as a 3-off for me making me outdraw others by miles. Red as you may have read was good enough (at least I was a huge fan of Recoup during the day as I remember using it to flashback a tinker, time walk and a Will later on during some after the tournament games. As for the sideboard I saw way to little of it to actually say something about it. After the event I did however play some more games in which the splash turned out highly relevant. Even Arjan claimed he indeed missed what Red offered.

The reason I claimed going Red could be an option was only for Pyroclasm. Against a BRW Agro list and Goblins with Piledrivers that card would have been really good. But Infest is also a great card that is oncolor.

Regarding the statement that this is Bob Tezz or Tezz with out Tezz is completely fals (played with or without Bob).
* This deck plays 5 Bouncespells.
* Tendrils as seccond win condition and with this a completely different game plan.

Greetz Zieby A.K.A Arjan
 
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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 03:49:43 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen
It seems like you are paying too much attention to what Americans have to say  
Only certain Americans Wink

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Have you considered something like what the french have come up with?  Soly played this: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39092.0  
Yes I have, having played against the French sporting these lists, I dislike certain things and I "borrowed" certain things. I think running Spell pierce over Drain in the European meta game equals suicide as decks like Selkie (my event had 3 lists in top 8 alone), BUG fish, all kinds of Beats and WS aggro are all a lot more common then in the US and Drain is just arguably better because it can stop a early creature.

Quote from: Smmenen
What are your thoughts on ZBS?
It could be my extreme fatigue kicking in (still running on just 3 hours of sleep and I just finished my 9+ hour workday) but I cannot for the life of me figure out what you mean with ZBS (I'll obv offer my opinion if I do find out) Very Happy

Quote from: Gandalf_The_White_1
How often is the Tendrils relevant as an alternate kill, given that the main focus of this deck seems to me to be Vault+Key?  Do you think Tendrils is fundamental to the deck or just to make sure you have another kill besides Sphinx and Bob beats (as it seems to me Tezz often is)?
Like I said during the original post, at first I never had TV/Key in this deck and it worked fine. I've killed more with Tendrils then I've gone infinite now during testing and the tournament. The main focus isn't really TV/Key at least I don't play it as such. I think not running Tendrils in a list like this is just foolish as it off sets the potential life loss from confidant and beats and provides a very synergistic way of suddenly winning.

Quote from: Gandalf_The_White_1
For example, in Match 1 Game 2 you went for the Vault combo when it seems to me that you could have gone for the Storm kill (Gifting for Lotus, Will, Recoup, Demonic Tutor; I think the worst case is you get Will and Recoup and can still Tendrils for 20 even if you don't draw anything useful off Repeal+Ancestral--[this is of course not counting Petal since the decision was at the time you cast gifts]).  Obviously the Vault+Key kill is simpler, and you didn't know he had the Grudge (though of course if you had played around it it wouldn't have mattered anyway), so maybe this is the wrong approach, but ever since I used to play Drain Tendrils and Meandeck Gifts whenever I have mana+Gifts I always think of going for the Tendrils kill first.
Could I have won if my gifts pile was aimed at generating a lethal Tendrils ? Would that have been better? I guess the answer to both questions is a Yes, It would have at least eliminated the fact that he had an Oxidize or Ancient Grudge or what not to stop TV/Key from working. I guess It seemed like a very "cool" thing to grab at the point and maybe even an over zealous play from my part. Like I said in the report it didn't matter in the end but in retrospect the pile seemed foolish. I've Gifted to setup a Tendrils more then anything, currently I play this deck like European Storm / DT with the added bonus of having TV/Key in it.

Quote
I am also wondering how the Dredge matchup is.  To bring in you have 1 Yixlid Jailer 1 Extirpate 1 Tormod's Crypt 2 Pithing Needle, and maybe Pyroclasm for the tokens.  Is this enough to reliably ensure victory in games 2 and 3, or do you just hope not to play against them?
I've found out when playing TPS that having 5-6 Hate cards is enough to stall them long enough to eventually win. I agree that this is one slot short and it's something I'll probably change the next time I run this deck. The dredge matchup is very winable with just this as you only really need to stall for 2-3 turns to get your stuff together. Basically you can dedicate all you have to drawing a shitton of cards. Although it might not be the correct number and I'd up the hate in the future it never really failed me during testing.
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 03:51:42 pm »

I guess ZBS = Ze Perfect Storm.   The french list runs Brain Freeze and the rest of the shell looks like yours.   You may have benefited from running Brain Freezes over your Tendrils + Recoup. 
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 03:56:31 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen
I guess ZBS = Ze Perfect Storm.   The french list runs Brain Freeze and the rest of the shell looks like yours.   You may have benefited from running Brain Freezes over your Tendrils + Recoup.
Ah Right, well here goes !

From my talking to the French they run Brainfreeze to combat the mirror match and to combat other storm decks. Which is hardly relevant enough in the Dutch meta because not enough storm decks usually show up. That being said I would still prefer Tendrils + Recoup over Brainfreeze and the green splash because Red offers better sideboarding options in Ingot Chewer and ETW then green does. Recoup has been proving it's worth to me ever since I first included it and I've really come to like what it can potentially do for this deck. The amount of storm needed to "kill" with a Brainfreeze is huge compared to the amount you need to sent a lethal Tendrils, as stated in my original post usually you don't even have to storm all the way up to 9+ Tendrils for it to be lethal.
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 04:06:42 pm »

I would talk to the Frenchies, but I'm not sure that's their rationale behind BF.  I think that they just like BF better.  It's also probably superior against Oath. 
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 04:10:45 pm »

@Steve,
Most of the players I talked to gave that as a reason. I did however test it and didn't really like it. That being said I can easily see it being in the SB against Oath if Iona keeps putting up numbers.
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 05:06:00 pm »

Hi marske, I was just wondering: against which decks would you say that European Storm has better match-ups than TPS?  I imagine that there are some or you would have just played TPS, as you stated that it should win vs ES head to head.  Just vs Tezz with the excess bounce and Confidants?  Thanks
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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 05:19:26 pm »

Very nice deck.  I just want to highlight something to add emphasis.

On the other hand, I believe that Top and Repeal can be categorized as contenders for the coveted title of best draw engine. Are they better than the other options? Unlike Bob, they don't force you into a heavy Black component. And they're both useful on their own. I have been especially happy with Top, provided that there is not a Null Rod on the other side of the table.

This is the main concept to take from this deck, in my opinion.

Top is an excellent card.  It lets you look at 3 cards, and if you have a fetchland or other shuffle effect you get to look at 3 more.  How many cards let you look at 6 cards in a single turn?  If you need one of them right now, you draw it.  This compounds with the restricted list and and makes the Top owner more likely to find the busted cards that just win.  Some would call this luck.  Furthermore the Top is easy to operate with Moxen, both in casting it and using it, and makes excellent use of the deck's mana so that nothing goes to waste on a given turn.  It smooths draws so there is rarely a lapse in the deck's tempo - it is always searching, always making land drops, always finding something to play, always plotting to win.

When you have both Repeal and Top, you get to invest 2U and draw 2 cards.  This provides the same exact raw card advantage as Thirst for Knowledge pitching an artifact.  It even has the added bonus of splitting the 2U up over 2 turns, and only requiring 1U during the critical moment.  If you aren't drawing cards with the engine, you are using Repeal to bounce a permanent that will let you continue with winning.  

This engine has serious potential.  
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2009, 05:21:05 pm »

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From my talking to the French they run Brainfreeze to combat the mirror match and to combat other storm decks.
Could you explain what you mean by this, I don't understand how Brainfreeze helps to combat the mirror match.  If your Storm opponent has generated lethal storm with Tendrils and is pointing it at your face you'll need Brainfreeze + 18ish storm + a Recall to kill them.  Or is the play to cast it in response to a tutor to mill the Tendrils out of there deck?
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« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2009, 06:02:45 pm »

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From my talking to the French they run Brainfreeze to combat the mirror match and to combat other storm decks.
Could you explain what you mean by this, I don't understand how Brainfreeze helps to combat the mirror match.  If your Storm opponent has generated lethal storm with Tendrils and is pointing it at your face you'll need Brainfreeze + 18ish storm + a Recall to kill them.  Or is the play to cast it in response to a tutor to mill the Tendrils out of there deck?

Yeah, in my conversations with people who play ZBS (what I've called European combo), that's not their rationale.   Rather, they argue that they just like Brain Freeze better because it's blue, cheaper, etc.   

Also, I have to agree with the person who said that this looks mostly just like a Drain Vault deck.   You don't even have a storm spell maindeck aside from a single Tendrils.  It's like a cross between Bob Tez and Drain Tendrils.   It reminds me of that deck that made top 4 at Vintage worlds if he had repeals: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29630
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« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 06:18:47 pm »

Quote from: Smmenen
Yeah, in my conversations with people who play ZBS (what I've called European combo), that's not their rationale.   Rather, they argue that they just like Brain Freeze better because it's blue, cheaper, etc.
It's just something that I remeber Cesar (Fernadez) saying to me when we spoke in Milan. I've also talked to Benito Hernandez (the BOM 3 MVP) who also played a deck similar to this to a 6-1-2 finish during the EurOvino. So I'm not grabbing it out of thin air. That being said you could very well be correct about the rationale it doesn't take away that Brainfreeze imho isn't strictly "better" then Tendrils in this deck.

Quote from: Smmenen
Also, I have to agree with the person who said that this looks mostly just like a Drain Vault deck.   You don't even have a storm spell maindeck aside from a single Tendrils.  It's like a cross between Bob Tez and Drain Tendrils.   It reminds me of that deck that made top 4 at Vintage worlds if he had repeals: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29630
So the criterium for being called a storm deck is having multiple storm "spells" maindeck ? Either way your second point "it's a cross between Bob Tez and Drain Tendrils" is spot on making the deck an entire new beast instead of just "Bob Tez" or just "Drain Tendrils" imho.

Quote from: Gekoratel
Could you explain what you mean by this, I don't understand how Brainfreeze helps to combat the mirror match.  If your Storm opponent has generated lethal storm with Tendrils and is pointing it at your face you'll need Brainfreeze + 18ish storm + a Recall to kill them.  Or is the play to cast it in response to a tutor to mill the Tendrils out of there deck?
The idea was indeed to Brainfreeze them mid ramping effectively nullifying going combo or indeed milling Yawgh Will or Tendrils from the deck, it's also great in response to a topdeck tutor or what not.

Regarding Brainfreeze in general:
I've tested this deck for the better part of 2 month's going through numerous incarnations adding Brainfreeze, ETW, TV/key (or subtracting this) and all kinds of different setups. Everytime I had Brainfreeze in the deck I wished it was a Tendrils during testing this made me play it instead of the Brainfreeze. I won't deny the fact that the Brainfreeze is very strong but like I said I tend to play this deck more like DT making me prefer Tendrils. I'm guessing either is fine, the key behind this entire thread and my initial post was bringing the focus on the strongest draw engine currently available in Vintage (Repeal + top) and giving an impression about a shell to fit this in. Along with the obvious point in testing the deck I threw together.
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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 07:08:15 pm »

Brainfreeze is good against other storm because it allows you to take advantage of their spells and turn it against them. Milling the important stuff into the graveyard is semi-irrelevant but on more than one occasion I've seen a Brainfreeze in response to a Recall win the game. Also use it on yourself to mill a few cards pre-Yawg then replay it on them later.
That said I still think it's worse than Tendrils 98% of the time, especially w/ Bob.

I do like the Top engine and I'm going to try it out for myself.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 09:19:54 pm »

While my testing hasn't been extensive, I was quite disappointed with Brainfreeze in the deck. And I say this unhappily, since I am a big fan of the card. Of course I'd prefer a blue instant to a black sorcery. And Brainfreeze is just a fun card in general. But it hasn't been good enough in my testing. Especially with Oath as popular as it is, I don't think that running Brain Freeze could be correct.
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 03:40:16 am »

Quote
Brainfreeze is good against other storm because it allows you to take advantage of their spells and turn it against them. Milling the important stuff into the graveyard is semi-irrelevant but on more than one occasion I've seen a Brainfreeze in response to a Recall win the game. Also use it on yourself to mill a few cards pre-Yawg then replay it on them later.
That said I still think it's worse than Tendrils 98% of the time, especially w/ Bob.
Correct that was the main advantage that they described to me as well.

Quote
I do like the Top engine and I'm going to try it out for myself.
I'm very interested in hearing any results.

Quote
While my testing hasn't been extensive, I was quite disappointed with Brainfreeze in the deck. And I say this unhappily, since I am a big fan of the card. Of course I'd prefer a blue instant to a black sorcery. And Brainfreeze is just a fun card in general. But it hasn't been good enough in my testing. Especially with Oath as popular as it is, I don't think that running Brain Freeze could be correct.
I think Brain freeze "could" have a spot in the deck if the Meta were a bit different, but then again like I've said before in this thread: Tendrils, while being a black sorcery at least offers a "sure" kill and needs a heck of a lot less storm to be really effective.
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 07:14:37 am »

First... it was great seeing you again Marius. I always enjoy hanging out with you (and all the other Dutch regulars)
I've seen that monster you played in action and it looks really solid. Too bad your result didnt reflect that more. After swiss I took the opportunity to play against it and got hosed pretty bad Wink (both by you and by Bart)
The Minus6 deck I piloted didnt perform as I hoped it would (3-2, drop). I was really looking forward to playing Dragon again (because its one of my all-time favorite decks) but it didnt work out due to reasons better suited for the Minus6 deck topic.

I'm not really a great combo player (at least Tendrils combo) so I cant really comment on the whole Brain Freeze - Tendrils discussion.
But if I were to pick up Tendrils combo this would be the best deck suited for my playstyle. It just looks awesome.

-minor sidenote-
The match against Goswin ended at 2-1 in Goswins favor... you resolved TV+key in game 2.
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2009, 07:42:53 am »

Quote
First... it was great seeing you again Marius. I always enjoy hangin with out (and all the other Dutch regulars)
As always it's great fun seeing you as well and I'm looking forward to kicking it with you in Zwolle in 2 weeks.

Quote
I've seen that monster you played in action and it looks really solid. Too bad your result didnt reflect that more. After swiss I took the opportunity to play against it and got hosed pretty bad Wink (both by you and by Bart)
I know Wink the decks a real beast, some "rust" from not playing anything other then TPS probably cost me the event as the deck was certainly capable of winning the entire thing.

Quote
The match against Goswin ended at 2-1 in Goswins favor... you resolved TV+key in game 2.
Ah right, well seeing as you were watching this might be right, I forgot to take any real notes during that match. Thanks !
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 04:42:14 am »

Hi Marske,
good find with the Top/Repeal. I played them in the same dec couple of times but never saw it.

So as the 3/2 configuration seems good, if the draw engine is so strong, did you try 4/3?

For the discussion which draw engine is better: Top/Repeal and confidant really have their pros and cons in different matchups. Against stax for example confidant is the nuts. Besides very broken hands it is THE play that enables you to win the first game vs. stax.

Combo: Confidant is garbage, while first turn top can find you another force and repeal is ok as well.
Control: I think both draw engines are good. Confidant sometimes is too slow and I have lost games with confidant because my opponent outdrew me (a quick fact, gifts, tfk)
Stax: Confidant is just broken
Fish: Top sucks because of Rod but repeal can be good. The lifeloss of confidant is often critical but he still is very good.
Ichorid: Confidant can be a time walk because he can block and remove bridges and top/repeal is mediocre as well.

Your configuration seems like a good way to go to cover all these matchups. I think its interesting to note that there is no point in running a mono blue engine so you do not have to fetch non basic anymore. Against the decs that play wasteland, confidant is probably the best engine we ever had and I am happy to get my land wasted, much better than TfK and Gifts.     
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 07:39:10 am »

Hi all,
I'm back again! Smile

I would like to argue about the summary made by heiner ( because it's a good starting point ) coupling it with the very possible swap between ToA for BF ( with consequent but minor changes of the deck skeleton )

Quote from: heiner
Combo: Confidant is garbage, while first turn top can find you another force and repeal is ok as well.
Control: I think both draw engines are good. Confidant sometimes is too slow and I have lost games with confidant because my opponent outdrew me (a quick fact, gifts, tfk)
Stax: Confidant is just broken
Fish: Top sucks because of Rod but repeal can be good. The lifeloss of confidant is often critical but he still is very good.
Ichorid: Confidant can be a time walk because he can block and remove bridges and top/repeal is mediocre as well.

All the arguments made by marske and "Europeans" ( such as KLu, Hernandez, JaimeCano or myself ) about how elegant & surprisingly solid is to kill people with BF instead of ToA should be translated from a theoretical to a pratical lavel in order to be truly embraced. Heiner with his summarization about how marske additions and changes to standard Confidant Drain Tendril Storm lists interact with the metagame let me easily add other comparisons between choosing BF over ToA and having overall better results ** ( skills & knowledge required when playing BF as only kill conditions ...):

Combo: Confidant is garbage, while first turn top can find you another force and repeal is ok as well.
Here, BF is trickier than ToA. You can have a turn, some mana and nothing more while they are possibly killing you on their first or second turn. BF may guarantee some interactions while opponent is going off, both ruining his plans or simply leaving you in a better shape ( "surviving" is far better than "dying" ). You will stop them from using disadvantage tutors for free, possibly blocking winning processes. BF cheap cc ( 1U ) and instant speed is key when you want to interact with opponents winning routine. Opponent's Ancestral in stack, a lot of spells, Freeze them before it resolve and you will usually force them to autodeck themselves. This deck can play winning paths both on his own turn or opponents one. Sorcery speed ToA simply costs a lot without Rituals and can clunk yourself if you are not broken with your 0cc spells
Control: I think both draw engines are good. Confidant sometimes is too slow and I have lost games with confidant because my opponent outdrew me (a quick fact, gifts, tfk) . While they have more control elements rather than you, many times I saw control decks being killed by their own YWill ( all freezed cards are instantly RFG ); your strenght is not to give him any "key" spell to counter and then flow him with cheap and apparently not crucial spells. 2 little BFs ( not lethal if taken alone ) are simpler to achieve than a lethal ToA but their single impact over the game is batter than half killing someone with ToA  because it munch him precious spells. You can couple BF with TCrypt with an even nicer effect: mill them and ruin their plans forever.

Stax: Confidant is just broken.
Here both BF & ToA aren't a perfect choice. Just stabilize as soon as you can and then kill them through your best Robot of choice. Post side you'll add more control tools leaving overcosted spells in you sideboard. Confidants & Robot are your best weapons. Again, even if EtW is strictly better than BF than is fairly better than ToA, I'm not convinced by the third color addition. With a stable mana base, bouncers and robots you can recover from bad positions while losing consistency because of additional dual lands or 4cc.red.sorcery.speed.spell will not help you to ragain an edge over Stax.

Fish: Top sucks because of Rod but repeal can be good. The lifeloss of confidant is often critical but he still is very good. Again, BF & ToA are possibly both suboptimal. Fish will not leave you abuse of both mana & spells,contemporarily depleting your life into the process. Retrospectively, I won more games because of a sneaky single turn with BF rather than ToA. It is harder to have 4 free mana with BB floating rather than exploding with cheap chains of spells and then milling their cards away from the deck. I'm not saying BF is the best way to win, here. Tutor & protect Tinker or Robot if you can and post side stabilize mana base as soon as possible.
  
Ichorid: Confidant can be a time walk because he can block and remove bridges and top/repeal is mediocre as well. In this matchup, BF can transform a mean matchup into a really good one. Milling a deck will win milling itself seems to me too obviously easier than protecting my own cards from being duressed away trying to resolve 10spells and kill him. BF & TCrypt will win entire post side games regardless their own board position.


Oath: I can add some details about this matchup, too. While Oath will abuse of tremendous YWill, being bicolor, tricky with BF and sneaky with your strategy, you'll be able to win more games coupling their own spells with yours. If they are not using GBlessing, Krosan Reclamation will be their own worst friend aaginst your BFs. ToA need more time to be set up. BF will slow him down more than you: you have a better mana base and a more flexible build. Oath is quick and strong if it can abuse of his first 7/8 cards hand.



I'm encouraging you to try to maximize your game options while playing BF during your tests, because it will add more flexibility to a deck ( player ) that will not be easily hated out ( outplayed ): you'll find BF to be as good as ToA game after game. The more the options, the more the fun winning with it Smile

MaxxMatt


<Addendum>
Deck Skeleton
Even if I argued only about BF&ToA, I really appreciate marske interpretation of an old all European deck idea.
The skeleton, during past years, has not changed dramaticaly. KLu evolutions of his own first pet deck, like my own AlmostBlue ( I tag in this way StormDrain based combo decks a couple of years ago and a lot of europeans are referring to them in the same way ) went into this direction since Dark Confidant print. Repeals & Tops are an even nicer addition after Brainstorms restriction

I'm going a bit theorical, now.
FoW, Drains, Repeals, SDTops, Confidants & Restricted cards can be deck defining by themselves.
Deck skeleton is there, in those simple choices.
Fuel them with up to 7-8 different spells due to playstile and you'll have a really strong deck.
Tune sideboard according to both your playstile and maindeck choices.

For my AlmostBlue.dec, I opted for BF+TCrypts and more restricted instead of DarkConfidants. I put them in my sideboard, instead, to power up specific matchups and change decks winning directions during post side changes. A sort of "minimal transformational sideboard". I found this flexibility an over-the-top behaviour of my deck.

Marske approach to this European Storm Deck is really good, as well. I like his choice of a lower mana curve: fewer bombs but cheaper ones. His deck is really really solid. The only changes I'll do without denaturing his project will be cutting red. Two color decks are far more solid than three color ones and the better solutions Red spells will give to him are comparable with the inherent less solid mana base. Against Stax & Fish you'll need a stable mana base as much as EtW, Pyroclasm, IChewer. I don't see an improvement adding better solutions but watering mana bases. For every game won by EtW or Pyroclasm, you'll have one you'll be killed because of your decision to play 3 color instead of 2. More basic lands and Stax&Fish will be "slowed down" in their denial plan as much as killing his critters or loading the board with some Goblins. It is my credo and I think marske deck will benefit a lot from cutting his 3 red spells.

-Recoup
+ Timetwister

-Ingot Chewer
-Piroclasm
-Empty the Warrens
+HRecall
+Duress
+Etruth
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 09:38:47 am by marske » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 10:12:08 am »

@Heiner, MaxxMatt,
I just have to agree with you guys on most things you posted, those were indeed similar findings to what I noticed during testing. I'd like to emphasize

Quote
Your configuration seems like a good way to go to cover all these matchups. I think its interesting to note that there is no point in running a mono blue engine so you do not have to fetch non basic anymore. Against the decs that play wasteland, confidant is probably the best engine we ever had and I am happy to get my land wasted, much better than TfK and Gifts.    

The "skeleton" as MaxxMatt called it, that I tried to create with my deck was indeed aimed at doing just what Heiner said (Cover all those matchups)

Without going to deep on the theoretical stuff surrounding this deck (Which MaxxMatt has explained perfectly) it's highly adjustable to suit the pilots playstyle, wether it's main setup is a more Combo/Control approach (like mine) or a pure straight up combo deck (like AlmostBlue and MaxxMatts own build) or a more Control oriented is imho a matter of pilot preference and the expected metagame.

Quote
Marske approach to this European Storm Deck is really good, as well. I like his choice of a lower mana curve: fewer bombs but cheaper ones. His deck is really really solid.
Thank you !! It was indeed my goal to lower the curve (because of Confidant) but keep the potential explosiveness the deck has.

Quote
The only changes I'll do without denaturing his project will be cutting red. Two color decks are far more solid than three color ones and the better solutions Red spells will give to him are comparable with the inherent less solid mana base. Against Stax & Fish you'll need a stable mana base as much as EtW, Pyroclasm, IChewer. I don't see an improvement adding better solutions but watering mana bases. For every game won by EtW or Pyroclasm, you'll have one you'll be killed because of your decision to play 3 color instead of 2. More basic lands and Stax&Fish will be "slowed down" in their denial plan as much as killing his critters or loading the board with some Goblins.
Agreed that the less colors you run the less duals you run the more basics you can run making the Fish and Stax matchups solid. Nobody will deny that, however I've not yet suffered from having the splash but I've only won games because of it  (during testing and during the tournament) So although I've been an avid supporter of keeping decks like TPS U/B I'm not so sure I'd want to cut Red just yet. I will however give some thoughts about the additions you suggested.

Quote
-Recoup
+ Timetwister
If I cut red this would indeed be the switch I would make, but seeing as Recoup offers a tremendous advantage in the deck currently I'd not swap it with something else.

Quote
-Ingot Chewer
-Piroclasm
-Empty the Warrens
+HRecall
+Duress
+Etruth
Increasingly during my games in testing just bouncing all of Staxx permanents and not making it put me back in a world of hurt after I passed the turn. This was the main reason I decided I don't want to bounce stuff I want it off the board entirely (hence red and Chewer) that way the only way they have to get things back is Welder and that I can bounce / Darkblast / Steal with Old-man etc making it a lot easier to manage. Having Pithing needle = Wasteland takes away any pressure they can put on you for playing 3 colors instead of 2 and Pithing Needle can also take care of Welder or Bazaar (against dredge or Staxx it's pretty solid). The effect Pyroclasm has on decks like Fish (Selkie, BUG and others) is just huge, you wipe their entire board, bounce the Null rod and combo in their face, this has been very good for me during testing. This is something Echoing Truth just simply cannot do. If they have Gaddock Teeg AND Aven Mindcensor AND something like Canonist / MM you're in for a world of hurt, with Pyroclasm I just nuke the entire board and go. Regarding Duress, seeing as I run Thoughtseize because it also helps against Fish I'd up that to running the full four instead of a single duress.

I've always been a huge fan of Empty the Warrens ever since the card was first printed I've played it in Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage and nobody ever has the correct answer for it making it very very strong in certain matchups I've had numerous opponents running Stax that just scooped after an ETW for 3-4 because they simply cannot handle the pressure along with Confidant, the destruction, the bounce and obviously Sphinx.
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 03:27:43 am »

hi marskr, Matt
I tested a similar dec yesterday with some changes
- rebuild
- chain
- recoup
- frantic search

+ mana drain
+ 2 spell snare

I think 4 bounce spells (repeal hurkyl) is enough an I wanted more disruption. Spell snare is golden in the noble fish meta I m currently in, hence over duress.
I tested both tendrils and etw and I am not set on it. Even your long post matt could not convince me that bf is better Smile

the repeal/top combo came up only once and was good but while in theory it is better than tfk it isn't really as tfk is a single card combo where repeal top is not. Still the cards a very good o it's own so I will keep playing it. Repeal us an excellent storm generator and I am considering going up to four. Mox, repeal, mox, repeal, EtW is a great play and most control players will not stop it as they think you are just cycling.
So where we all agree I think is that storm is the strictly better wincon then tezzeret the rest of the dec still has some potential for optimizations I think.
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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2009, 06:30:57 am »

Spell Snare
Spell snare is golden in the noble fish meta I m currently in, hence over duress.
How is this card better then Spell Pierce. Is the fact that Spell Snare stops all 2cc Creatures as well better then to stop an early Tinker, Gifts Ungiven or Fact or Fiction not more important. Not to say, this card didn't cross my mind but I didn't test it yet to see it's impact.

@ Maxx Matt
I think that in the current Meta-game the Brain Freeze + Tormod's Crypt Kill condition is harder to win with then with ToA and TV+Key. The fact ToA can give you time by giving you some life when facing a few critters can be game winning. TV+Key gives you games you don't deserve to win so it is in my view to good to pass on.

A topic I want to adress is the side board for an UB Build.
At this moment I think in the line of the following cards:

4x Ravenous Trap
For Ichorid this is the new card. They only way they can beat this card is Unmask, Therapy or Fow.
I didn't play it yet in a tournament, but last tournament I heard the Ichorid players complain about the card.
2x Extirpate
Basicly the smae as the Trap and does tripple duty.
I also use this card against Control and Storm Combo to remove the Key cards in the deck.
2x Old Man of the Sea
This card I really Love. Against all Aggro decks he is a beating and against Stax he gives you the ability to steel welder.
I play this card for the last few month's in my decks and he is an allstar.
3x Bitter Blossom
This card is new. It gives permanents against Stax. It gives Critters against Aggro and it can give you critters in the Control Match up if you chose to board them in. So far I really liked the card. Also most aggro decks that run Black are packing edict for the Robot. This way you have always a extra creature to sac for edict.
2x Thoughtseize
For Control and Storm, I choose for seize because of Bob. a Turn one seize to remove a Bob can be very good. The Fact you can board it against aggro if you feel like it is a bonus.
1x Darkblast
For the Confidants and Welders in general.
1x Hurkyl's Recall
For Stax. I don't think this needs to be explained.

What do you guys think of this board?
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« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2009, 08:21:32 am »

Spell Pierce: Aeh no! Did you actually read my post? I play this card because of fish. If I wanted to stop Tinker, gifts etc I would play Duress.

While Ravenous Trap is better than crypt and Extirpate, Leyline and Needle is stil BY FAR the best hate vs. ichorid. Don't play trap.

I have tested bitterblossom. While in theory it sounds great, it often isn't enough vs fish where pyro or goyf is just much better. Against smokestack stax it is great, but most mono brown lists play beat sticks these times where it just doesn't make the cut. The lifeloss together with confidants is also critical. If you have to stay UB it still is the best option you have.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 08:34:57 am by heiner » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2009, 08:58:39 am »


While Ravenous Trap is better than crypt and Extirpate, Leyline and Needle is stil BY FAR the best hate vs. ichorid. Don't play trap.


I disagree here. Trap dodges their sidebord hate. Especially when you are running tops, I think Trap is the best hate vs Ichorid. Ichorid can only take it with Unmask and only if it is in your opening hand. Additionally your chances of holding force against this are as good as their chances to have Unmask. During the rest of the game Trap's instant speed beats their sorcery speed discard. Most of the time you can even prevent them from bringing a single sacc outlet to the table if you respond with Trap to the triggers of Ichorid and Narcomoeba after dredging.

//Edit: And while Leyline and Needle need to be there at the beginning of the game and stick around until the hate arrives, the ichorid player never knows if you have a trap or not and you have 2 -3 turns (depending on who goes first) to dig it up via tutors.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 09:02:56 am by zeromancer » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2009, 06:27:26 am »

Quote
Spell Pierce: Aeh no! Did you actually read my post? I play this card because of fish. If I wanted to stop Tinker, gifts etc I would play Duress.
What exactly is your problem against fish as I've not had one myself? Together with Mana drain and repeal (Nice goyf and 2 mana wasted) same goes for Null Rod which hasn't been an issue to date for me. But I noticed you cut down on the bounce (going down to just 3 repeal and a hurkyls) which might factor into it. Chain of Vapor is huge in dealing with threads and enabling Storm and I wouldn't cut it myself, the reason why I play so many bounce spells is to just handle the stuff you're using Spell Snare for.

Quote
- rebuild
- chain
- recoup
- frantic search

+ mana drain
+ 2 spell snare
Ok, so you added 2 drain or are playing 59 cards? Again, Frantic Search is a very good tool in battling stuff like Choke (something GW beats like decks tend to run) and all other kinds of nasty stuff. I'd definitely keep Chain of Vapor in the deck as it's THE catch all answer and storm enabler you just sometimes need. Also without chain you have no realistic way of dealing with Gaddock Teeg (well you can snare, drain, force him but a resolved teeg is staying for good) this is imho a huge mistake.

Quote
While Ravenous Trap is better than crypt and Extirpate, Leyline and Needle is stil BY FAR the best hate vs. ichorid. Don't play trap.
Actually the traps not better then Crypt OR extirpate, Extirpate is in a league of it's own because it takes EVERY copy the player would ever play. Which is huge when taking 4-offs like Dark Ritual, Mana Drain or even Force of Will. Tormod's Crypt is also arguable better against decks that aren't dredge. (like TPS for example) I usually want my sideboard cards to deal with multiple matchups not just matchup X. That's the main reason I dislike Leyline as it does shit against other decks and this deck can't reliably hardcast it when it gets bounced.

I've not tested Bitterblossom myself but it looks good on paper for any build being U/B, I'm still advocating running the Red splash to deal with Stax and Fish making Bitterblossom a worse choice then Ingot Chewer and ETW.
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2009, 11:31:46 am »

Marius -

I'm intrigued by the Top/Repeal draw engine.  Seems very, very good in today's field.

As far as the BF/Tendrils debate goes, I'd just say that when playing against Stax, you'd rather have the Tendrils I think. 

Also, even though there is a ton more aggro in Europe, I still love Spell Pierce.  That card seems amazing.  As you know what the field is like over there, I'll take your word that it's strictly worse than Drain there.
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