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Author Topic: Time Vault + Rings of Brighthearth = infinite turns: but how ?  (Read 3707 times)
slicer
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« on: November 03, 2009, 07:32:12 am »

People told me, that I have to put both artifacts into play, wait until next turn, then untap time vault, tap for a turn and then copy this ability with the rings to net one turn. But since untapping Time Vault is a replacement effect no turn actually starts and I am confused, when to tap for an extra turn and when to copy this ability.
Could some please clarify the interactions between these 2 cards and how to stack the abilities ?

Thanx a lot

Rings of Brighthearth
Artifact, 3 (3)
Whenever you activate an ability, if it isn't a mana ability, you may pay {2}. If you do, copy that ability. You may choose new targets for the copy.

Time Vault
Artifact, 2 (2)
Time Vault enters the battlefield tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.
{T}: Take an extra turn after this one.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 07:35:30 am by slicer » Logged
Clariax
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2009, 09:34:05 am »

You skip one turn when you untap Time Vault.  You get an extra turn from Time Vault, plus an additional extra turn from the copy of the ability created by Rings of Brighthearth.  Then you skip one of those turns when you untap Time Vault again.  So you skip a turn, then get 2, skipping one, then get 2, skipping 1, etc.
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Aaron Cutler
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2009, 09:55:00 am »

If "my" turn doesnt start, due to the replacement effect of Time Vault,  then I am not aloud to do anything bevor next upkeep. That means, it is the upkeep of my opponent. I am under the impression, that all trigger will put on stack at the beginning of upkeep even if they triggered during the untap step.
If this is true, I can use Time Vault to get a turn (and copy this ability with the rings) at the earliest in the upkeep of my oppenents turn. This way I loose a turn bevor I can go infinite.
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Clariax
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 04:47:15 pm »

If "my" turn doesnt start, due to the replacement effect of Time Vault,  then I am not aloud to do anything bevor next upkeep. That means, it is the upkeep of my opponent. I am under the impression, that all trigger will put on stack at the beginning of upkeep even if they triggered during the untap step.
If this is true, I can use Time Vault to get a turn (and copy this ability with the rings) at the earliest in the upkeep of my oppenents turn. This way I loose a turn bevor I can go infinite.

This is correct, except there aren't any triggers to be put on the stack in this scenario.  But other than that, yes, you skip your turn, the next time you get priority is the upkeep of the next turn.
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Aaron Cutler
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 06:43:16 am »

Sorry for insisting, but the whole matter is not totally clear to me. I'm again trying to describe the progression:

1. I put both artifacts into play. I pass to my opponent.
2. I wait for my next turn, but instead of starting it I skip it via untapping Time Vault. I cant to anything in this situation (eg. tapping Time Vault und copy the effect, so that I get the next turn !?? )
3. The next turn belonges to my oppenent. At the earliest in his upkeep I can activate my Time Vault and copy the effect with the rings. My oppenent proceeds with his turn.
4. I have 3 turns coming up: My "normal turn", 1 turn from Time Vault and 1 from its copy effect.

To put it: after bringing the artifacts into play I have to survive 2 more of my opponents turns bevor I am able to go infinite. Is this correct?
I'm asking this because people pointed out, that I have to wait only one turn but I dont know how it is possible.

This is correct, except there aren't any triggers to be put on the stack in this scenario.
Untapping Time Vault should trigger Rings of Brighthearth .... Someone might want to skip a second turn  Very Happy
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 06:46:33 am by slicer » Logged
Rico Suave
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 08:13:53 am »

Sorry for insisting, but the whole matter is not totally clear to me. I'm again trying to describe the progression:

1. I put both artifacts into play. I pass to my opponent.
2. I wait for my next turn, but instead of starting it I skip it via untapping Time Vault. I cant to anything in this situation (eg. tapping Time Vault und copy the effect, so that I get the next turn !?? )
3. The next turn belonges to my oppenent. At the earliest in his upkeep I can activate my Time Vault and copy the effect with the rings. My oppenent proceeds with his turn.
4. I have 3 turns coming up: My "normal turn", 1 turn from Time Vault and 1 from its copy effect.

To put it: after bringing the artifacts into play I have to survive 2 more of my opponents turns bevor I am able to go infinite. Is this correct?
I'm asking this because people pointed out, that I have to wait only one turn but I dont know how it is possible.

Your progression is correct.  It is impossible to untap Time Vault and then "use it" because you do not have priority to play instants or abilities at that time.  

Here is how the exact part works:
1) It is your opponent's end step.  They play any abilities they choose, or none if they choose, and pass the turn.  Note this is the last time anybody can play abilities before Time Vault untaps (with very few exceptions on cards that read "at the beginning of the next clean up step").
2) They go through the clean-up step.  They discard if appropriate, all damage is removed from permanents, and all "until end of turn" effects wear off.  No player may play abilities or spells.
3) Play now proceeds to your untap, but the replacement effect of Time Vault skips your turn.  You do not actually ever enter the untap step.  No player may play abilities or spells.
4) Your opponent begins his turn, and untaps during the untap step.  No player may play abilities or spells.
5) Your opponent enters the upkeep step.  All appropriate triggers go on the stack, and then your opponent receives priority.  This is the first time since the previous end step that anybody has been able to play abilities or spells.

In effect, your opponent will receive 2 turns in a row before you can proceed with the combo.

Untapping Time Vault should trigger Rings of Brighthearth .... Someone might want to skip a second turn  Very Happy

No, Rings of Brighthearth only triggers when an activated ability is played.

"If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault."

That is a replacement effect, not an activated ability.  It does not trigger Rings of Brighthearth.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 08:23:39 am by Rico Suave » Logged

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slicer
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 08:39:46 am »

Thank you very much, Rico. That is the answer I hoped for.

No, Rings of Brighthearth only triggers when an activated ability is played.

Of course you are right, its a replacement effect not an ability, my fault. Again, thanks a lot.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 08:44:35 am by slicer » Logged
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