Sideboard against Ichorid in Blue/Black Control

[The Atog Lord]

There has been, for several years now, an ongoing arms race between the forces of undeath and those who would seek to banish the foul risen dead from the Battlefield. And with Zendikar, both sides have gained powerful new tools for the fray.

There are, of course, many interesting aspects to Ichorid and Sideboarding. What are the best cards against the deck? How does it respond to hate cards, and how do the hate cards remain relevant through Ichorid's anti-hate? However, in this thread, I wish to discuss a much more specific subproblem.

How should a Blue/Black control deck sideboard against modern Ichorid builds?

Notes about Ichorid

First, let's look at the target: Modern Vintage Ichorid. As before, the basic strategy is for Ichorid to come close to decking itself, and then win by replaying it's graveyard, making even Yawgmoth jealous.

Recently, however, Ichorid has obtained Bloodghast, which lets it put yet another creature into play early. Chris Roberts has recently placed well with a build of Ichorid well-designed to abuse this Vampire. It plays Dakmor Salvage as a dredg-able way to return those Vampires. It also runs both Ichorid and Bloodghast, meaning that even if the combo mechanism of Ichorid is stopped, the deck is able to play a strong Aggro game.

Beyond this new addition, the Ichorid deck itself has forked into several variations, both in their maindeck and sideboard. The main distinction is between those builds that play Serum Powder and those which use an infusion of blue cards to be able to function without Bazaar.

Ichorid sideboards tend to run a full set of Chain of Vapor, but beyond that have several viable cards. Emerald Charm, Whispermare, Ingot Chewer, Leyline of the Void, Unmask, and even reanimation targets are among the many possibilities.


Considering the Options

Leyline of the Void
If you can start with this one in play, there's little Ichorid can do before removing it. Granted, every Ichorid player is going to have a full set of Chains, and likely several other cards to remove this. And it has rather limited applications against other decks. And it isn't good to draw after the first turn. But it can single-handedly lock out an Ichorid player, which most of the following cards can't do alone.

Tormod's Crypt
To be honest, I've had bad experiences with this one. Twice, I've lost matches because this Crypt was stuck in my hand while my my Ichorid opponent sat happily behind a Chalice of the Void. I've since stopped using this card at all, though I could see it being used in conjunction with Trinket Mage. It is worth noting that this, as well as the other graveyard-removal contraptions, will not win the game on their own. They will buy a few turns -- and enough of them in sequence can neuter Ichorid.

Ravenous Trap
In theory, I like this one. But I haven't tested it yet. Does anyone have any good testing data from this card? I'd imagine it to be like a Tormod's Crypt that is less predictable and vulnerable to Cabal Therapy rather than Chalice -- a significant upgrade, I'd imagine.

Relic of Progenitus
Relic of Progenitus is well-balanced and strong. It's major downsides are that it doesn't lock up the game on its own, and it costs two mana in total to go from hand to activated ability. But it has some serious points in its favor. It cantrips, which is not to be dismissed. It is viable against Stax and even Tarmogoyf, barring Null Rod. It can sit on the table, contributing to things before actually being used. And costing one mana makes it immune to Chalice of the Void.

Pithing Needle and Strip Mine
Brian Demars once created a very clever sideboard for Control Slaver which involved boarding in Strip Mine and Wastelands against Ichorid. The theory is that keeping Ichorid off Bazaar will severely diminish its ability to function. Certainly, there are games that Wasteland will end. Though, different builds of Ichorid are vulnerably to varying degrees to having Bazaar removed. Both Strip Mine and Pithing Needle have the advantage that they are quite viable against several other decks in addition to just Ichorid.

Extirpate
I'm not entirely convinced that this is a particularly good time for Extirpate. Yes, it is uncountable and yes it has applications against combo. And I'd prefer nothing above this card against Dragon. But never has Ichorid been more resistant to having its main Reanimation approach halted. Bloodghasts and Ichorids can combine to create a rather speedy kill even without Bridge, making this card likely worth sideboarding only if its other applications indicate running it.

Yixlid Jailer
With a Yixlid Jailer in play, Ichorid can't do much. He and Leyline have that property, while most of the rest of this list does not. On the other hand, he is the most expensive card included in the list, and moreover is vulnerable to a wide range of removal. Of course Chain gets him. So does the Pitchable contagion and the Dredge-able Darkblast. And of all of the options presented here, he is the most narrow, not even useful against Dragon.

Final Thoughts
So, given all of that, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed with crafting a sideboard which properly handles Ichorid. It is clear, however, that there are several factors to consider with selecting cards. The first, and most obvious, is how many cards to dedicate to Ichorid. Then, there are how damaging to Ichorid the various hate cards are. Is your plan to resolve one threat (Leyline or Jailer) and win with it, or to continue throwing hate cards at Ichorid until it collapses under the combined weight of them? How diverse are your hate cards -- the most card types you have, the less able Ichorid is to sideboard around them. The next is how much you want your Ichorid sideboard cards to be useful in other matches.

What do you think?

[voltron00x]

See here for a more complete list of both the SB options available against Ichorid, as well as the answer cards Ichorid uses:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18042_The_Long_Winding_Road_The_Undead_Survival_Guide.html

The sideboards Ichorid fears the most have always been those that are varied.  With the printing of Relic and Rav Trap, that is definitely the best option for Blue/Black control.  Something that looks like the following is extremely difficult to handle for an Ichorid player.  Varied hate makes them keep in all their options, diluting the speed & consistency of their deck and buying you time to continue to find additional hate while executing your own game plan.

1-2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pithing Needle
1-2 Ravenous Trap
1-2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Planar Void

[hitman]

This may sound strange but have you considered sideboarding out Yawgmoth's Will?  Keep in mind that Ichorid plays Chalice of the Void and Leyline of the Void in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Unmask.  Ichorid's disruption package is ideal for keeping Will in check.  If you side out Will, you can side in Planar Void.  It's a better card against Ichorid than every single card you listed in the original post.

The plan for me is to force interaction with Ichorid within the first two turns.  If I can't do that, I usually die because Ichorid can easily win by turn three through disruption.  Because of that, I don't like Leyline of the Void.  Outside of opening with it, the card is cumbersome and unlikely to be cast in time.  If Ichorid does Chain of Vapor it, it's usually as good as destroying it, which is important from the Ichorid pilot's point of view because of tempo.  The combo with Helm of Obedience is realistically requires you to mulligan aggressively to the Leyline so the Helm acts like a "one-card win".  

I don't like Wasteland effects because while you're trying to disrupt Ichorid early on, you'll still need to develop your mana or you'll run out of steam.  You can't bank on Moxes because of Chalice.  However, I think Pithing Needle is very strong against Ichorid.  It's important to shut off Bazaar, even with a Leyline or Planar Void out because the Ichorid player can still dig into answers otherwise.

I've almost always found Tormod's Crypt and Relic to be speed bumps.  They buy me a couple extra turns and that's about it.  Unless I'm a combo deck that can capitalize on the time gained, I don't think they're worth the slots.

If I were to build a board with Ichorid in mind today, it would include 3 Planar Void, 2 Yixlid Jailer and 2 Pithing Needle.  Having seven cards is important to me because Ichorid is so fast.  I won't have time to tutor for sideboard cards, generally.  I really want to have one in my opening hand.

[Anusien]

The key to sideboarding against Ichorid is not just diversifying the physical cards you're playing, but diversifying the hate cards they need to bring in against you.  You don't want to bring in 8 cards if all of them can just be answered by Chain of Vapor.
Meadbert's latest sideboard:

sideboard
4 Unmask
4 Force Of Will
3 Echoing Truth
4 Chain Of Vapor

You need to sideboard in order to force him to bring in all 15 cards.  In this case you definitely want access to either Ravenous Trap or Extirpate to force them to bring in Unmask and Force.  You also want either Needle or Leyline or something similar to turn their Bazaars off.  And you want Crypt or Jailer to blank their yard.  That's the way I'd approach building the sideboard.

[benthetenor]

I'm a big fan of bringing in 1-2 copies of 3 or 4 different answers, strictly because not only does it force them to dilute their deck down which inherently slows them down (making your gameplan all the more potent), but it also forces them to have the correct answer at the correct time, whereas all of your cards will at least do something. I really like the idea of 2 Ravenous Trap, 2 Yixlid Jailer, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Pithing Needle, and maybe even some number of Relic of Progenitus. Is it a lot to bring in? Yes. But it's also somewhat flexible against different decks, and when all of it is in, it becomes a very bad game for Ichorid.

I ran close to this plan when I was playing Remora (a la PT-GT's sideboard) and it turned a bad matchup into something that was winnable, and very favorable post-board. Granted, that deck also had a lot of chaff to bring out and was extremely dominant against whole swathes of the metagame, so such a large sideboard was actually both synergistic and pragmatic.

[vroman]

Extirpate is the premier card vs Dredge. I do not like permanent-based answers to Dredge like Planar Void, Leyline, Tormod, because it gives Dredge player opportunity to make advance plans. Hiding your readiness is a big edge. My current anti-dredge board with Oath is
2 Extirpate
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

The Tormod is in there because of Tinker, otherwise would be another RavTrap. I have Stripmine, Timetwister and Krosan Reclamation main, which are disruptive. Also Spell Pierce over Drain is relevant.

[meadbert]

Extirpate is terrible as hate goes against Dredge.  It may be good against other matchups (including Oath) thus making it a valid consideration, but it is worse than every other card mentioned here.
To fight Dredge you want to fight their graveyard or fight Bazaar.  Extirpate cannot fight Bazaar and is weak at fighting a Graveyard usually removing just two cards.

The best Extirpate target is Bridge from Below in my opinion and that is removed with Cursecatcher which was not worth mentioning in this thread.  Becker promoted Extirpate on Grave-Troll, but I never found that to be an effective strategy.

The 4xLeyline of the Void + 4x Mindbreak Trap sideboard scares me, but that is a lot of space to dedicate.

Wasteland and Needle are better than they were due to Fatestitchers wanting to abuse Bazaar more.

Tormod's Crypt is scary as always.  Regarding Hitman's comment about Crypting and Relic only buying two turns.  He is right.  Tormod's Crypt is a double Time Walk (maybe 1.5) that costs 0 mana.  It is really good.  The key to beating Dredge is to board out counter magic (which is bad against Dredge) and then board in hate leaving your goldfish speed untouched.  Now use a token piece of hate to slow Dredge from a turn 3 win (typical post board) to turn 4 or 5 win.  Then race them with your usual turn 3-4 goldfish.

Attempting to protect hate with Counter Magic or planning to counter Therapies is a weak plan against Serum Powder Dredge.  You risk slowing your own goldfish down to the point where a few Bridge tokens or Bloodghasts can finish you off.  You should almost never lose to 2xBridge Token + Bloodghast beatdown.  If you did then you must sideboarded out gas and kept in garbage like Force of Will.  Do not do this.

Planar Void remains the best card for hating out dredge.

Jailer's effectiveness depends on the build.  Against anyone running a few Darkblasts he is terrible because on the draw post board your opponent will have plenty of time to get Darkblast in hand.  Against my most recent list he is better since I ran no Darkblasts.

[Smmenen]

I believe the best strategy for hating out Dredge is simple:

Select the anti-Dredge cards that the Dredge sideboards and mainboards are least effective at answering.

This is a several step process that I conducted this summer in an article here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17613_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Prepping_for_the_Legacy_5K_Dredging_Through_Vintage.html   (article is now free)

1) I built a composite Dredge list based upon every single tournament Top 8 Dredge deck in the preceding months.

2) I then built a table (in the article) of each anti-Dredge card and listed how many of the Dredge SB cards answered it.

Surprisingly, Leyline of the Void came out ahead for one simple reason: the fewest number of Dredge SB and MB cards answer it.    Tormod's Crypt was the weakest by this measure, since the most number of dredge MB and SB cards (14) answer it. 

[MirariKnight]

Extirpate is terrible as hate goes against Dredge.  It may be good against other matchups (including Oath) thus making it a valid consideration, but it is worse than every other card mentioned here.
To fight Dredge you want to fight their graveyard or fight Bazaar.  Extirpate cannot fight Bazaar and is weak at fighting a Graveyard usually removing just two cards.

The best Extirpate target is Bridge from Below in my opinion and that is removed with Cursecatcher which was not worth mentioning in this thread.  Becker promoted Extirpate on Grave-Troll, but I never found that to be an effective strategy.

Maybe this has changed since Bloodghast but I've always found hitting Narcomoeba to be the right card. Without that, I don't really care what they're doing with Bazaar. Narco/Ichorid/Bloodghast are the only cards 100% required to start the engine (Therapy/Dread Return) and without them the deck is just milling itself.

[vroman]

Dredge has to get 3 men on board to do anything scary. Most Dredge will play Narco and then either Icky or Bloodguy. If you Extirpate the first creature you see that can hit play, you get all of them at once, and they only have 4 recurrable creatures left in the deck. I would never Extirpate Bridge.

[meadbert]

Extirate on Narco is weak.  Usually you get 2 Bloodghasts and then 2 Fatestitchers hitting play turn 2.  Those sac to some Therapies then Dread Return on Sharuum for the win.  Fatestitcher Dredge should still usually win turn 2 through Extirpate on Narcomoeba.
If you wanted to slow down my list you would be better off Extirpating Dread Return or Altar of Demenia.  If you want to stop the disruption then Extirpate Therapy.
Nacromoeba is one of the weaker Extirpate targets in the deck.

[The Atog Lord]

I've found that Extirpate isn't great against Ichorid in general now. No matter which component you hit, you're still going to have to deal with several other threats. Even without using the combo win, Ichorid can quickly overwhelm your defenses. Extirpate without any other graveyard hate cards buys perhaps a turn or two, though I believe something that removes the entire graveyard would buy you more time.

This past weekend, I was prepared for Ichorid with Trap, Leyline, and a single Jailer.

My thinking was that the one Jailer would let me find him with a tutor once things got later. The Traps and Leylines would present diverse threats to the Ichorid player. I wasn't convinced that just halting Bazaar did enough, so I did not play Needle.

That said, I didn't face Ichorid all day, and wished that I had more sideboard slots against combo. So, that's the other threat of Ichorid -- overboarding for it can harm you against other decks.

[hitman]

I've found the configuration of 3 Duress, 3 Mana Drain and 4 Force of Will very successful in conjunction with a fast kill like Tezzeret has.  I initially cut a Mana Drain because I found myself not wanting it before turn three.  It's more important to develop than to halt my opponent's development during that period.  If I'm always assuming a controlling posture in the initial turns of a game, it's not hard for a competent player to simply overwhelm me with threats.  With Duress, I'm more capable at developing my own gameplan and halting my opponent's at the same time.

My thinking was that the one Jailer would let me find him with a tutor once things got later. The Traps and Leylines would present diverse threats to the Ichorid player. I wasn't convinced that just halting Bazaar did enough, so I did not play Needle.

If your reasoning to play one Jailer was because you could always tutor for one later and cast it, wouldn't it have been more effective to play four Jailer and one Leyline?  In that case, if you had the Leyline in your opening hand, great!  However, if you were to draw it in subsequent turns, it would be detrimental because it was a dead draw.  Jailer would be much easier to cast at any point in the game.  If you were to tutor for Leyline in the later parts of a game, it would be more likely that you have the mana to hard cast it.

[nineisnoone]

I don't think it's a question of what is the *best* card against Ichorid.  I'm pretty sure that is Leyline of the Void.  It requires 2 cards to answer it.  A blue/green mana source and Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm.  The additional costs to Therapy and Unmask/Contagion are negligible.  It's only turn 0, but that's not a big deal since Ichorid is fast enough that your opening hand is perhaps 80-90% percent of the relevant cards you'll see in the match-up.

It's more a question of what deck you run and how that relates on it's own to Ichorid.  If your deck is just plain bad in the match-up, and you want to salvage it to being reasonable, I'd just run Leyline of the Void.  Anything else is just going to be middle-of-the-road and overall less effective.

If you are decent in the match-up or it's a case where you don't want to ignore it complete, but think it won't be huge in your meta, I'd go with Pithing Needle or Crypt/Relic/Trap. 

Pithing Needle needs to drop early, so I find it preferable when you deck is not as dependent on opening hands, i.e. you can afford to mulligan for it.  If it drops too late, it's pretty irrelevant.  Wasteland is kind of similar, but it costs you a land drop, won't answer multiple Bazaars, and is less useful in multiples.  Wasteland is seen as better card overall, but I do think Pithing Needle is underrated in general and as a SB option I think Needle is better.

If on the other hand, you can't mulligan for hate or play an early Pithing Needle/Wasteland, then Crypt/Relic/Trap are the better choices.  Basically, the opposite of Needle these have an increasing reward as the game gets longer, not that that's the best choice, but the graveyard will be larger. 

If you run a lot of moxen, I wouldn't run Crypt as it's just over-exposing you to Chalice @ 0.  Barring that, I find it to be the best of the graveyard sweepers and I would recommend it.  Other than that Trap is stronger than Relic, but Relic is better overall though it can create problems if you need your graveyard.  So between those, it's a question of your deck and your meta.  Generally, I don't think Trap is that much better than Relic in terms of Ichorid, namely because they can somewhat control when you can Trap. Extirpate is another option.  Personally, it feels a bit too random for me though.

I've never tried Jailer.  I don't think much of it, but I don't really know either.

In general though, I think it's also important to talk about how Ichorid will sideboard against your sideboard.  Smmenen brings up a good point about exposing your hate to answers.  For the most part, the only thing that Ichorid can't just power through is Leyline of the Void.  Barring drawing that or overboarding against them, I don't think what is the optimal card is all that important.   This is because Ichorid has answers and Ichorid has raw power.  Butting heads with it isn't the best approach. 

Mixing answers, attempting something of a flank maneuver if you will, to my mind is best.  Bazaar is a great card filter, but it's not a draw engine.  Beyond what they'll be able to fit into their sideboard, they'll also have to decide when to start drawing instead of dredging and what to keep in their hand.  Chalice @ 0 is great when it shuts down 5 Moxen + Lotus + 4 Crypt.  It's not even a dead card because redundant copies will just get filtered out anyways.  However, if you just run 2 Crypts, it becomes less powerful.  This goes for all their hate cards.  They are all narrow. 

Again barring Leyline, if you look for the card that is the best, you'll end up weakening it.  Every card you play has a certain value to in, seen as either the card they play to answer it or the time it takes for them to recover from it.  To you, whether they answer it or not is not all that important.  You get that value from it either way.  You might loose a bit in overall power with diversity, but all your cards answer Ichorid.  The same is not true for their counters.  As you diversify threats, their counters become weaker and weaker.